(240) Did Abraham Know Something About Money That We Don't (Genesis Part 13) - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Eo2YHRd-IE

Transcript: (00:05) Good evening. Welcome to Crowd Church. Great to be with you this evening. Uh great to have you here. I I am with the beautiful and talented we'll start with. Ladies and gentlemen, good evening. Good evening all. Lovely to see you. Yeah, absolutely. It's great to be here. Thank you for joining us. Make sure you say hi in the comments. Love to know where you're watching from. (00:27) Uh and yeah, tell us what's going on in your life right now. Uh we'd love to know more about you. If we don't know already, head to the website crowd.urch um and you'll find all kinds of information there, including information about the new alpha course which is starting on April the 9th, which I believe is a week on Wednesday if I am not mistaken with my old calendar and knowledge. Uh 7:30, is that right? Yeah. Yep. Good. (00:55) Uh 7:30 in the evening, uh we will be doing uh Alpha course. So if you're in Liverpool, you can come do it in person with us if you're obviously a bit further away. Uh we're also doing it online at the same time. So you can join us. We'll do it probably over Zoom. Um but you're more than welcome to come join us. Love doing Alpha. (01:16) It's like a 16 week I want to say course that kind of introduces you to Christianity and some of the fundamental concepts. Um so yeah, come join us for Alpha. If you want to know more, head over to the website crowd. You see I'm wearing the crowd merch. Nice. very much. Head to crowd.urch and you'll there's a link on there for alpha. (01:34) You can follow that and it will tell you everything you need to know. But genuinely would love to see you in there. So yes. Yeah. Do do check out that link. If if you don't know about alpha, it's not a it's not the kind of course that you get a certificate at the end of you tick. Yeah, I know this d. (01:52) It's a it's a place to come and question to to talk about whatever really. I mean obviously there's some structure to it. um but and it does take you through um the the the principles of the Christian faith, but it's a fantastic opportunity to actually bring questions that you don't really get an opportunity necessarily to ask elsewhere. So, it's, you know, it's it's a very informal kind of place to come and do that. (02:11) So, really, really recommend you you check that out. Fantastic. And of course, today in the UK and in several countries around the world, but not in the States. Yeah. And not in the States. Today is Mother's Day. I found this out the hard way when I lived in the States. (02:30) Um, I called my mom just randomly and she's like, "Why have you not sent me a Mother's Day card?" I'm like, "Because it's not Mother's Day yet." And she went, "No, it is." And so that's when I learned we have separate Mother's Days around the I will know that because my brother's in Canada actually. (02:46) And and because I've bought things on uh online things for Canada, I start getting adverts for like the American Mother's Day. I go, "Didn't we do this like a month ago? What what's going on?" So anyway, for those that do celebrate Mother's Day, happy Mother's Day. I just want to read out something that our wonderful Anna Kettle wrote uh on her wonderful Substack. Um it says, "I know that Mother's Day can be a wonderful celebration for all those hardworking moms out there. (03:09) Uh but it can also be a really hard day for many too. For those who have lost their moms, for those who have absent or broken relationships with their mothers, for those who have lost uh babies or children, for those facing infert infertility or childlessness or singleness, we appreciate that Mother's Day isn't always um straightforward for everybody around the world. (03:34) So, but we appreciate for some that it is. Uh, and so yeah, it it's it's it's one of those days where we just wanted to I think I think there was a wonderful prayer today on the Leto Lectio 365 app which said, "Lord, for mothers today, we pray joy uh for orphans comfort for not yet mothers hope for struggling mother's grace and for the lonely family. (03:58) " So wherever you are, whether you're celebrating, whether today's a sad day, um God's with you. just want you to know his peace and comfort and um I personally am super grateful for my mom. If my mom's watching, you are a legend. Absolute legend. Love the bones off you. Um so yeah, happy Mother's Day. Yeah. No, absolutely. (04:23) And and I was thinking about this today and there's so many pictures throughout the Bible of God's heart as a mother. um and that sense of nurture, of faithfulness, of um unconditional uh desire, input um and and actually lots of the uh the biblical analogies um are are definitely a motherhood and uh yeah, for all those who um are in that season where your mother doesn't actually realize that you're their son, I salute you being there today. Oh, bless you. (04:56) wish my mom happy birth happy mother's day and she said thank you very much but I'm not your mother no mother you are you are you absolutely are so anyway yeah it can be a it can be a mix for for everyone but uh happy Mother's Day happy Mother's Day yeah absolutely um Sonia said where do you get these hoodies from she wants one um it's I don't know we should maybe sell them on the crowd website the amount of people that request these crowd hoodies crowd church merch um they do you know pastor Alexander, we when he came over last year, we got him um a crowd church hoodie. So, he's running around in the Congo in a black crowd the probably the one place on earth you do (05:32) not need a hoodie, but he really wanted one. So, um they are limited edition uh these crowd church hoodies and very cool. Very cool. We should all wear them. Absolutely. Right. Should we get into it? I think we probably should, shouldn't we? So today we are carrying on our conversation in the book of Genesis. I can't remember what number we're on, maybe 12, 13, I don't know. (05:57) We've been doing it a while. It's been fun. Uh and we've started looking at Abraham. So we looked at the Abrahamic covenant a couple weeks ago. Sharon looked at last week the sacrifice aspect where Abraham um goes to sacrifice his son, but God intervenes in that whole thing, which is uh was phenomenal. (06:16) I I really enjoyed it actually. Um, and Jen was on that last week with Sharon and Anna. And we have Jen's husband with us sharing the next stage. Uh, the next step. In fact, I think we got these the wrong way round though. I think you should have. Is that right? There was some discrepant. Anyway, we've got Jack talking about Abraham's generosity. (06:34) So, without further ado, let me hand over to the wonderful Mr. Jack Mariner. Hello. Yeah. Well, it's great to be with you and thank you, Matt. Yeah, I want one of those jumpers. Get them on. You're missing a trick there. Get them on. Yeah. Yeah. Tintet. We are looking at this book of Genesis. First book of the Bible. I've loved this series. (07:01) Absolutely loved this series so far. This is the second talk. We're looking at Abraham. Um, and it is a spoiler alert for Genesis. I think it's 17 where he becomes Abraham. One of the one of the main characters in Genesis. Two weeks ago, Matt looked at this incredible covenant, this promise that God gives to Abraham to bless him and to make him a father of many nations. And today, I want to pick up this theme of blessing and generosity. (07:26) So, if you want to uh turn to Genesis 12, if you're following with the Bible, we're going to have the scriptures on the screen as well. But this is a story about learning. And I want to share a little story about learning because I don't know about you guys, but I love learning. (07:43) if there's anything to learn, if there's someone doing something and someone's like, "Who wants to have a go?" I will put my hand up. Um, often not publicly, but I would like to have a go at a game. And so, friends were going skiing and snowboarding about five, six years ago, and I'd never been. And they said, "Jack, do you want to go?" And I was like, "Yeah, of course. (08:00) " And so, there's about seven of us on this trip uh to to France on the Swiss French border, and I think five of them could ski or snowboard, and me and this other person couldn't. And so day one comes and the leader of this groups um or the organizer said, "Right, Jack, you and this other person need to stay on the nursery slopes." He was kind of like my genesis master for the week. He was like, "Stay on these nursery slopes. (08:22) Go anywhere but that ski lift." It was quite genuine. And uh so day one I did that, me and this friend just kind of fell over quite a lot. Day two, the same sort of thing happened. Then day three I had this moment of madness where I went over to the ski lift. I was like, "How bad can it be if I go up that ski lift?" And so, next thing I know, I'm on this ski lift and we're going higher and higher and higher. (08:50) It turns out to be the tallest or longest and highest going ski lift of the whole resort. And we got I got to the top and then I'm like, "What goes up must come down." And so I fall off the ski lift because I've never been on a ski lift, never knew how to get off a ski lift. Fell off and it was stunning. It was absolutely beautiful. (09:06) But then I had to start this descent down this huge mountain and I started going down. And I started skiing and after about 10 seconds I fell over and this I remember this guy coming up to me says m and which means sir you okay and I said oh no uh no first one I said we I was a bit too too um too too honest to like I didn't want to admit my defeat I said we I'm fine and then it happened again and this time I fell over and I really hurt myself wounded myself and another person came up and says mure do and this time I says no I'm not Okay. (09:42) Um, and we had a little chat with broken French and English. And I decided I need to start this walk of shame going down this mountain. Picked up my skis step by step. Had to get to the bottom. Found everyone else. They've been looking for me. There been a search party. I was meant to meet them at the bar at 3. It was now four. They were scared. (10:00) I was scared. Um, I don't know how you go about learning things, but learning is rarely easy, is it? And in Genesis 12, it's no different for Abraham. learning to trust God. And actually, this is at the heart of so many stories that we look at the Bible. Humanity learning to trust God and learning something. (10:20) So, let's get to the passage. Genesis 12, the call of Abraham. The Lord had said to Abraham, "Go from your country, your people, and your father's household to the land I'll show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I'll bless you. I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. So God makes this promise with Abraham. (10:45) Go and I'll bless you and I'll make you a blessing. Now the first thing that stands out to me is that in order to be able to bless, you've got to have the ability to give something to to be able to bless. You've got to give something away and to have that ability. And this is the God of Adam and Eve. (11:04) The God of Abraham is the same God in that we meet in the garden with um Adam and Eve in Eden. And he's this abundant provider creating this beautiful world, this expansive world with variety and depth, with color, with mountains and seas and birds and fish and reptiles and animals and humans and stars and planets. It is absolutely abundant and radiant. (11:28) And God says to Adam and Eve, you can go anywhere. You can have all of this apart from that fruit on one tree. He wants to meet their needs. He wants to be their provider. He is an abundant God. He is overflowing with goodness and he wants his people to be blessed. And so it's with this same nature that God makes this blessing, makes this promise to Abraham, go and I will bless you and make you a blessing. (11:52) So off Abraham goes, we read, taking everything he had, his family, his possessions, and they set out for the land of Canaan, waiting to be blessed. But he doesn't get blessed, does he? instead of coming into this blessed life. In verse 10, we read the opposite happens. (12:11) So in verse 10, now there was a famine in the land and Abraham went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. So instead of experiencing this abundance and this this um expansion that God would give him that he was expecting, Abraham finds himself and his family, all those that he'd brought along. He finds this famine so great that he goes to Egypt. (12:34) And here in Egypt they uh fear he fears that when he meets the pharaoh such was the custom at the time that when a beautiful woman like his wife Sarai soon to be Sarah um when they see someone like that that they want uh if they're already married they'll murder the husband. (12:53) And so Abraham is fearing for his life and he says Sarah you're going to have to pretend you're my sister because if you're just my sister they'll take you in and they'll give me lots of things. They'll bless me. they'll they'll pay for you with a blessing to me. And so that's what they do. And they deceive Pharaoh. (13:10) And in verse 16 to 20, we read that Pharaoh treated Abraham well for her sake. And Abraham acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, male and female servants. And if that's not enough, camels as well. So he got this blessing even though he had been deceiving. But the Lord inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of what Abraham had done. (13:37) And so Pharaoh ca summoned Abraham to him and said, "What have you done to me? Why didn't you tell me she was your wife?" Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abraham to his men. And they sent him on his way with his wife and everything he had. So God promises to bless Abraham. But when this famine arises, instead of trusting God, he takes matters into his own hands. I don't know if anyone can relate to that. (13:57) where you feel that God has said something or you think I'm doing everything right. Why have I not walked into a better position? Why has this breakthrough not come? Why has that offer not come of a new job or why is my house not in order? Why is this relationship? Why hasn't this thing that I've been wanting been given to me? What do we do in those moments? Do we continue to trust God or do we go our own way? Because God never told Abraham to go to Egypt, did he? But he chooses to. And he puts himself and his wife in danger. And as a result, Abraham ends up (14:30) in this mess. And God has to intervene, rescuing Abraham from his stupidity, from his foolishness. And yet, what I think is really remarkable is that God not only rescues Abraham, but he blesses him anywhere. He keeps his promise that if you go, I will bless you. And in chapter 13, we read how he gives Abraham wealth and livestock birth battle successes. And then we get to chapter 14, which is where we're going to stay for a little bit. (15:01) Going to camp out here for a little while because there's an incredible encounter between Abraham and this character MelkiseDC. A real fascinating person. We don't know too much about who Melkisedc is, but it's got a fascinating name. If you break down this name, it's uh king of righteousness, MelkiseDC. Um he only appears briefly in Genesis 14. (15:25) He's described as the king of Salem, which if you think Jerusalem, there's this king of peace. Already you might be thinking about this name. You're thinking, "Oh, that this sounds a bit familiar." And he's also named the priest uh of God most high. He gets this special mention in Hebrews 7 in the New Testament and is compared with Jesus himself. (15:46) Some people say this is like a pre um Jesus kind of figure in the Old Testament. There is clearly something important about him. And Abraham meets MelkiseDC. And MelkiseDC blesses Abraham saying, "Blessed be Abraham by God most high, creator of heaven and earth. And praise be to God most high who delivered your enemies into your hand." And then we read, Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. (16:12) So Abraham meets this priestly figure, one who represents God most high. And as a act of worship, he chooses now to give him a tenth of everything he has. What a turnaround. So we go from God saying, "Go, I will bless you." Abraham going, but then in fear going his own way. And then God is doing something stupid. So God has to rescue him. (16:32) But then God blesses him anyway. And it's as if at that point Abraham gets it. H this is what it means to be blessed. I'm going to give you it anyway. It's yours anyway. And this is where I come to the main point of this message. For me, something has changed in Abraham's heart. This whole experience up to this point was Abraham learning to trust God. (16:52) He moves from trusting in himself to provide. Trusting in his own ways to trusting God. Even despite his circumstances, he's learning I can trust God. I can trust God to provide. And I love hearing stories of God's provision. I I hear stories in church, people celebrating, people contesting, people standing firm. (17:17) Um, a time in my life where I really learned about God's provision was in my early 20s. I came to university in city of Liverpool and then I took an internship here at in Liverpool at Frontline Church. And it was custom at the time, it was normal at the time for people to live by faith. (17:38) this term that we use where basically you will do something where you might not get paid a lot. You might volunteer, but you'll trust that God will provide. And it helps that you hear God saying, "Do that before you do it." Little heads up. But I felt God lead me into volunteering to head up our student work at the church. And I remember my mates who weren't churchgoers saying, "Jack, what are you doing? You've just done this degree. (18:00) Why on earth wouldn't you want to look for a job and get paid?" And I tried to explain to them I felt God saying you should do this. But I want to be really honest with you. Those first six months were really hard. Those first six months where this was before the days where you could look on your phone and see how much you had in your bank account. (18:18) And so I was going to Asda and I was uh calling up my bank. Co-op bank. How much money do I have in my bank? What do I have? How can I how much can I afford um to spend this week?£3 pound23. Right. I can get bag of pasta, pesto, maybe some bacon if I'm lucky. And I remember thinking, God, this isn't the blessed life, is it? This is not what I signed up for when I was going to take a risk and go out for you. (18:43) Why am I not seeing more money coming? Why why am I living this kind of such such a harsh life when it come to uh what food I was going to have and other monies? And I remember uh then one time this knock on my door came and a friend said, "Here's £250." just felt like God's saying I should give you some money. And then another friend did a little whip round and some people gave me some money that provided enough rent that month. And then it was March. (19:08) I remember it clearly it was March. I didn't have any money in the bank and I went to speak at my parents' church where I grew up in London. And um just for 10 minutes they asked me to share a little bit about what I was doing that year. And straight after it this guy came up to me and he said, "Jack, thank you for sharing. I got saved. (19:28) I gave my life to Jesus. I met Jesus when I was at university and I really believe in what you're doing. I really believe that God wants to meet more people through student ministry. I want to um start supporting you financially. Now, little did he know that the rent that I needed to pay in April was £220 and I didn't have anything in my bank account. Might have had a couple of quid. (19:51) And I remember him saying, "Jack, I want to give you 200 pounds today and I want to start giving you 20 pounds a month." which he did every single month for about five years, which meant I went back up to Liverpool with the exact amount that I needed for my April's rent. God has all of heaven's treasures at his disposal. He is a God who can provide. (20:16) He is a God who is abundant in his generosity. Now, I knew God could provide, but it was quite hard at at moments. And I didn't always have everything I wanted. I didn't have always the latest things, and I haven't always had the latest things, but God has always provided. And that's been my testimony. A testimony that I've known so many believers have. (20:35) God is our provider, and God can be trusted. Now going back to Abraham, what we see in this interaction with MelkiseDC is Abraham relinquishing ownership of what is his. There's this transition where he wants things and then he's able to give them away because of his relinquishing ownership. (20:58) Right after he tithed to MelkiseDC, Abraham gives back wealth he has won in battle. The king of Sodom says,"Abraham, you keep all of this stuff." And Abraham's like, "No, I'm not going to keep it. I will not take, it says in Genesis 14, I will not take as much as a single thread. Otherwise, you will say you've made me rich. (21:16) So, he doesn't want the credit for what he's got. He doesn't want anyone else getting the credit for what he's got. He wants God to get the credit. He wants God to be seen as the provider. And I don't know about you, but I find it really easy to think that what I've earned, that what I've possessed is mine. (21:36) If anyone's seen Lord of the Rings and Golem with that ring, that precious ring, this is mine. It's my precious. And it's so easy for us, I think, to look at our possessions, to look at the money that we've earned, whether we've inherited it, whether we've got a degree, whether we've worked our socks off and we've come out of school early and we've made a living for ourselves, however we've got and acquired possessions and wealth. (21:59) It's so easy to think that is mine. I've earned it. It's mine. But Abraham is learning an important lesson. Everything that God has, he gives to us. He gives us his own son. You can't get a more precious gift from the God who is an abundant giver. And yet, and so everything that we have, we get to give back to God. We get to give away. It's as if God is making us a steward of what he's given us. (22:27) And he's saying, "What are you going to do with it? How are you going to use what I've given here. And there's all sorts of parables and stories that say that same message. James 1:17 says, "Everything good comes from God. Every perfect gift is from him. (22:47) These good gifts come down from the father who made all the lights in the sky." And if we're taking credit for our own success or our own money, however much we have, however little we have, it is important to remember that our money and our stuff comes from God, the father who made the world. the father who made all the lights in the sky. And by his grace, he lets us enjoy it with him. (23:06) And because we're blessed, we are able to be a blessing just like Abraham. It's worship. It's generosity. It's a sign of his trust in God. And so this story of Abraham and Melis, it's it's a key story of why we believe in the principle of tithing. (23:25) It's the story it's the first mention anywhere in the Bible of a tithe, giving the first tenth of something. And it's what is key is that this was before tithing was introduced as a rule for God's people. It's before it became a a a system. There was a temple tithing system set up where all God's people were expected to tithe into all sorts of different ways. (23:43) So Abraham gave 10% not as a rule because it was before it became a rule. It was a choice. And at Frontline we say tithing means giving an intentional proportional amount of what we earn uh to the local church. It's something we don't have to do but we get to. It's an act of worship. It's surrender. (24:06) It's honors God and expresses our trust in him not in ourselves and our money. And it's why we encourage tithing to a church you belong to separately from any other money you might give away to a charity to the poor because it's supporting the spiritual family that feeds you and supports you. Now this is where it's really important to look at scripture because there's all sorts of understandings around tithing and around giving. And I just wanted to share some thoughts on this. (24:32) On the one hand you might look at the New Testament and say Jack it doesn't really mention tithing that much. And I'd say you are right. It doesn't. But what it does do is it talks so much about giving. New Testament is full of sacrificial giving. And that might be giving to uh spiritually spiritually to leadership, those who feed you spiritually. (24:52) It might be giving to gospel expansion and missionary endeavors. It might be giving to the poor. All of those three are spoken about repeatedly in the New Testament. And Paul encourages planned proportional giving in 1 Corinthians 16. He talks about setting aside a fixed amount every week. (25:13) It is worship and yet it's radical costly living. In 2 Corinthians 8, Paul talks about the Macedonian church giving more than they could really afford to. And I love this expression of church in the midst of a very severe trial. He writes, "Their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. (25:38) " And that is the mark of those who encountered those who have encountered God. Those who have encountered his abundant grace in their lives. Those who have encountered that God sent his one and only son, the best gift he could give for them. And they couldn't help but share what they had with others. Both in what they say, but also what they had. (25:57) they wanted to give it away. There's also this argument that tithing was an Old Testament principle that we do not need to apply in the in 21st century like a law. Some people see tithing as legalism and we'll say that's that's like law. Hasn't you know Jesus come with grace and shouldn't maybe I won't give 10% but I'll just give a little I'll tip you know there's this idea of oh I just tip a little bit um how however much I feel. (26:29) Um, but as we've unpacked a little bit already today, 10% is never the thing, never the heart. When you look at the various things people gave into in the Old Testament, it was actually a lot more than this 10%. There were three sets of at least three sets of tithing in the Old Testament. There was the first or sacred tithe, giving 10% each year to the priests uh for their services and for the temple upkeep. (26:54) Then the second tithe was if you wanted to be part of the community, you would set aside money each year for the annual feasts and festivals so that you could travel and so that you could be part of them. And then there was a tithe given every three years for the poor. So in total, the total tithes that that amounted to was more like 23%. It was more like a quarter. And so and and then before that became a thing in the temple system of tithing, we see Abraham doing exactly that. (27:21) Giving away 10% in worship to this priest Melkisedc and the rest in generosity to the king of Sodom. So there's this principle of giving sacrificially that goes right from Genesis all the way through the Old Testament through the temple period into the early church and New Testament church. I don't know if you've ever thought about giving. (27:42) Maybe you give away lots of money. Some of you, you've maybe given 10% or even more faithfully to your local church for years. Some of you may have never given or not currently giving. For everyone, there's two questions that I've got on my heart for us to consider. (28:02) And the first is, do we trust in God to provide? And secondly, what is God saying to us about our giving? If you've never given before, I want to encourage you, why not start, you know, start with 5%, start with 1% and up it in a year, up it by a couple of percent next year. (28:24) Remember, 10% is a good principle, but it's not really about the 10%, is it? It's about our hearts. So, coming into land, it's remembering that we serve and can trust an abundantly generous God. We do not need to fear for lack. There's a beautiful passage in Matthew 6 where it says, "You do not need to worry about just as the birds don't worry about uh what they need. We do not need to worry about the food and the drink and what we're going to wear. (28:49) We do not need to worry." Which child has ever worried about what they're going to eat, what they're going to drink, what food they're going to wear. A father knows their needs. It's remembering it is God who gave us the money in the first place. It is not ours. We're just stewards. (29:07) And it's about worshiping God with our whole lives and reflecting his heart of generosity, generosity to others. Which takes me back to me sliding down that mountain on me bottom, learning to ski, learning to trust my friend who said just stay down there. It's comes back to Abraham moving from solving his own problems by going to Egypt to a place where he gives away most of what he has as a symbol of his trust in God. (29:33) God calls us to learn to trust in him and to be generous with what we have. So this week, I just want to encourage people to think about those questions. God, do I believe that you're a generous God? Do I trust you? And God, what are you saying to me about the money and what I have? How can I steward that? Well, bless you. Thank you. Wow, great talk, Jack. Yeah, pull up a chair. Let's get ready for conversation street. (30:03) Any questions, write them in the comments, uh whatever platform you're watching this on. And of course, share your own stories uh about this. But I'm I'm going to jump straight in because good friend of mine Rich Rising who is a legend if you're watching Rich legend um talked about how one of the biggest obstacles for people going to church just going to address the elephant in the room straight away. Get ready chaps. (30:34) One of the biggest obstacles people have for going to church is the belief that church is just after your money. Yeah. And so I'm kind of curious Who's going to answer that question first? Jack, go on. What do you think? Well, how would you how would you respond to that? The church is just after your money. The church is just after your money. (30:51) You need to look at what car the pastor drives first or what bike he drives. Yeah. I mean, it is what he drives or rides. Yeah. Well, someone quite genuinely a couple of weeks ago um their friend started coming to church and he says, "Why does the church always talk about money?" And I think it it really doesn't. (31:10) But of course each time each Sunday we do give an opportunity for people to give. Um I I think it's I I think it is a it's so countercultural and I touched on it a little bit. It's so it is a costly thing to do that you can't you can't really You're okay over there. Matt's falling off the chair. Matt's falling off his his chair. Can't believe your answer. (31:37) But you can't really even fathom the prospect of giving until you've met something that is too good to be true like God sending his only son on the cross. It's a it's a really good point and I think and we can all immediately I mean as you were talking I was immediately thinking of of some of the kind of the broadcast of like and and you know the link comes up at the bottom please give here um and that kind of just that that cynicism about kind of spiritual the emotional manipulation of getting people to give money but but I think you said a really interesting thing about the the (32:06) number of times Jesus talks about money because he knows it's something that absolutely cuts to the heart of where people's attitudes are where their before God is. And so it's it's it I don't think I think it's great the churches talk about money, not because the churches need money, although they do, but actually because it is a real it's one of those issues that really cuts through very clearly to what's really going on in your heart. Yeah. (32:31) And I think it it is a shame that there has been a lot of abuse and it's we need to acknowledge that that there has been a lot of abuse of people either speaking about this prosperity gospel too much and saying you will be blessed if you do this and um there's different different places around the world you know specifically talk about anywhere in particular but I think there has been abuse in people wanting and using the platform to live the blessed life and so we've an option. (33:02) Do we then not talk about it or do we just try and talk about it faithfully and truly and and really try and understand it because it is too big a thing. It's not just one of a thousand things. This is central to hit so many parables and so much of the the gospel is about give to the poor. It shows my heart there. You could just Google scripture on giving and it's it's endless. (33:25) There's a lot there, right? Isn't there? And I think I think this idea that you said about it being countercultural is really important. So the I was reading this morning actually, you know, you you mentioned um the Macedonians in the the letter. So Paul writes a letter to the church in Corinthians. The Christians in Jerusalem are in immense poverty. (33:47) And so they do something called the Jerusalem collection. And so different churches decide to give to the Jerusalem church, right? And so Paul writes to the church in Corinthians and they started to put together a gift. It kind of stalled. And so a year later Paul's like, I think you should probably finish this. (34:13) And he highlights the Macedonian church as an example who had no money really but were abundant givers. And I think I put in the comments a quote from CS Lewis, you know, about there's no real definition on how much you should give. The only thing is is probably more than you can spare. Right? That's probably the only fact. (34:33) But the thing about that I love about this passage and the way Paul talks about it is it is utterly countercultural in the sense that at the time the sort of the Greco Roman culture was if I had wealth, I gave it away because it was expected. I would build a library, I'd build a road, I'd throw a festival. Um it was never to give to the poor. It was never to be about dealing with inequality. It was all about my social standing. (34:55) Right? So if I gave, then you'd do a statue for me or an inscription or something to honor me. And if I didn't give, then I would be dishonored. You I mean it was about this sort of I give to get something which is probably at the heart of this prosperity gospel. Do you see what I mean? And actually talking about giving, Paul talks about we do this because we love. It's a response to love. (35:19) We prove we love. It's a grace. There's so much we could get into on this. And I think that is countercultural and that is the aspect of money we should talk about. And actually that that culture is is so very clear now as well. If if you think about companies and they're kind of publishing what they're giving to and and it feels very much like is this because you really care about this particular charitable work or is this just a kind of part of your marketing really? Yeah. It's a very similar sort of idea of like it's quite showy showy giving which again Jesus talks about (35:51) very much um in this time I think is just a thought I wonder if he talks so much about giving Jesus talks so much so much about giving that has been something that stayed with every culture throughout the you know centuries it almost just a random thought that social media now is so distracting and um technology and I wonder what Jesus would say about how we use that and how we spend our time because it's go basically goes back to the same sort of heart root of disciplehip. It's like how are you spending your time? He's talking about (36:31) something that goes right to the heart of who's on the throne of your life. What are you placing your hope in? How are you putting your focus? Maybe social media isn't isn't quite there, but it's what is the thing of our time? Money's always money's always every culture is always grappled with wanting more, wanting to keep up with appearances. Um, yeah, could take us down a rabbit hole. (36:56) Isn't that sad though? You know, after however many years of of of Christian thought or um, you know, it's still just as much of an issue. It feels like it's barely budged the needle at all. And so, it continues to be absolutely the thing we need to keep talking about. you said that everything God has, he gives us, I think. (37:17) And uh and I want to challenge back to you and ask you because you're involved in leadership for Christian Organization. Um I've also been involved in in that. And you kind of in that point of like trying to make a budget meet and you look at the world and go there is so much money in the world being squandered on ridiculous stuff. (37:36) Where is this money? All we need is a tiny tiny percentage of it just to kind of keep doing what's really good. and and you talked a bit about that kind of fear of faith. So as a leader in an organization that needs finance to do good stuff, how how do you how do you grapple with that that challenge? Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot that I wanted to put in this talk that I couldn't. (38:00) Um and everything he has is the end of that for me is that he gives us himself. It's the presence of himself that he gives to us. He has given us everything he has. He's What more could we want really? Like we we chase after possessions and power and relationships and all sorts of different things. But everything he has is him. He has given us all of that. (38:23) Um so it's more in that kind of heart sense that he has given when we get our minds around the fact that he's given us life. Yeah. And eternal life. Then everything else is just fleeting. It's that kind of aspect because yes, we have a hole in our next year's budget again and we need, you know, it's a hard time at the moment with charitable sector, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And um so we're having to think creatively, but it doesn't change my trust in God. (38:53) I see it as stressful, yes, and occasionally lose sleep about it, but really an adventure. I'm like, God, you're going to have to give us creativity. We're going to have to do this with le less paid staff. We're going to have to think creatively. you're going to have to bring in some funding or dot dot dot. That's that's how I've been able to to think about it. (39:12) I know you've been chair of trustees of a Christian school and you've had to deal with things. I don't know if you've got any other ways that you've dealt with that. No, I mean similarly it keeps you up at night because it's like the impossibility. I I I felt that frustration of what I said of like just looking at the sheer abundance of material resource that there is washing around the world and and how the sort of amounts that would make a huge difference to any charity work kind of just yeah just they're just um squandered away without anyone noticing (39:48) and yet they could make a massive difference. But I think I know I really like what you said that it's a in a sense money is not the issue. It is the thing that kind of keeps us challenged and keeps us close to God. But um yeah, but there's there's a whole lot more. But and it's not just church that needs money. (40:08) We got the cost of living crisis, right? This is a personal thing. Like how do you absolutely how do you deal with that? I remember once um with my with one of my former roles, I I got to hang out with ludicrously wealthy people, billionaires in fact. And one of them said to me, um he had a he had what I call a lot of yes men around him, right? Because he was so wealthy, everybody would just agree with him and say yes all the time. We see that a little bit today actually with well-known billionaires. Everyone's just (40:37) saying yes, yes, yes. And I didn't. And he said to me one day, he said, "Matty, you're not that bothered by my money. Why is that?" And I said, ' Do you really want to know? And he said, 'Y yeah. (40:55) I said, 'Well, the Bible says, which is always a good way to start a conversation, isn't it? The Bible says that the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous. I said, you're a sinner and I'm righteous, so it's all mine anyway. Right. And we just got on really well after that. And it's just just don't let money be, you know, the main issue. (41:15) One of the um one of the questions that's come in that I want to get to chaps uh Ellis has asked to what extent is it okay to buy ourselves things we like or that are nice things and not feel guilty uh about that money uh not being given to the church or to the poor. What a fantastic question. I don't know the answer to I I mean I I've gone on my own journey. I've got a bit of a poverty spirit. I'm going to be honest with you. I really hate spending money. (41:44) Um, and in the last sort of five years, I felt a bit of a breakthrough in that of actually it's all right occasionally to spend a little bit on myself. Maybe get, you know, a nice pair of trainee or something. Um, but I I think you want to keep good company and you want you want to keep good relationships with people who can call that sort of thing out in you. You want to check your heart. (42:08) You want to say, "God, am I doing what I should be with the money you've given me." So, keeping good accounts with him. Um, I think it's a heart issue. I know people that that, you know, spend money on investing things and they'll say, "Well, actually, that's this is my wiring to be able to invest well and I'm going to therefore live in a better house because actually that's good investment in that house. (42:31) It's it's acquiring money just as I live in it." Um, I think it's a really good question. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that that what you said about it being a heart issue is absolutely the the case. And the fact that you're asking that question, Ellis, shows that your heart is clearly in a good place because you're even considering it. (42:49) Whereas most people were just like, "It's mine. I'll spend it on what I like. Thank you very much." Um but but it is very easy to have that that kind of that poverty spirit as as you talked about Jack that there's there's almost a kind of an expectation that we should be suffering if we're kind of following God because actually this isn't our home anyway and when we get to heaven everything will be all right and and that can be that can completely drain the joy out of your life and to be honest it's a very bad witness um that others looking and go there's no way I'm becoming a Christian (43:19) like why on earth want to live like that you're miserable the whole time you got nothing. Um, but actually, I mean, what what fascinates me about the whole challenge to tithe and the fear faith thing is that as you begin to do it, it just kind of removes that hold that it has on it to the point actually when you know if if you if you're giving and you know that your heart is I want to be generous and I want to give to where there's a need, it becomes actually a lot easier to then spend money. Not because you feel like you've kind of, oh, I've done my 10% so I can spend the (43:51) rest on me, but it just it just becomes kind of easier because your whole it doesn't feel like money's got a hold on you anymore. Um, but there is something really important about not losing that sense of God blessing you and sometimes that is material. Yeah. (44:09) And sometimes that is circumstance and and those are all good things and God wants us to be uh to be living full lives. Yeah. No, it's very good. I might I might slightly come contrary to this in the sense that I don't well I because I I I I think I had a slightly different upbringing. I I grew up where money was not well I mean we didn't necessarily lack but it was definitely not flowing. (44:32) Um and when I came to the church and I I started to get my head around some of these things actually I I can't say I grown up as a Christian with a poverty spirit. what we call a poverty spirit. Probably the other way in some respects um and and needed to sort of draw that in. (44:52) I think for me, Ellis, if I was going to answer this question, just to again summarize what said, I think I've got to give first, right? Have I done that? Yes or no? Yes. And then I think whatever it is that I buy, money can't be your god if you can give it away, right? So, whatever it is you buy, can you hold it loose enough to be able to give it away? I had um I had a a Mini Cooper Mini Cooper S. (45:17) Love that car. It was like a go-kart on wheels, right? It was just beautiful. What color? Black. The only I wanted a British racing green actually, but I got a black one. It was awesome. And love that car. I could, not that I, if the police are watching, would ever do this, but apparently I could beat a Porsche 911 away from the traffic lights in that car. Loved it. And God told me to give it away. (45:45) So, how do I respond to that? Do I'm like, do I do, and I'm not saying this to make me look good, don't get me wrong. I'm like, you cannot hold something so tightly that you can't give it. Um, conversely, I asked my wife years ago, you remember this, right? um if I could have an Omega watch, which is very ostentatious. (46:03) I appreciate it's very ostentatious, especially in church circles. They're not cheap. And the reason I wanted an Omega watch, James Bond had one. It's the only reason. And so my wife, as wise as she is, said to me, "You can have an Omega watch as long as you don't buy it and you don't steal it. (46:20) " And so I was like, "Okay, challenge accepted." Uh, and so I and again that there's a theology around this and I I appreciate some people will struggle with what I'm about to say, but I prayed and I asked God for an amigga watch. Um, just because that was my I don't know. I couldn't tell you. It's just my heart's desire. (46:39) Now, I'm not saying that everybody listening to this go and pray for an Omega watch and God will give you one. That's a prosperity gospel which has been blown completely out of proportion. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is right at that point for me, I just felt it was okay to pray for this watch. (46:57) Now, there was a time gap between me praying for that um and a parcel arriving in a post from a client who I'd done a a pretty solid favor for um and in that box was a note saying, "Matt, thanks for everything." and a box with an Omega watch in it. I still have that watch and every time I see it, it's just a reminder to me of God's promise. It's not an ostentatious thing. It's not a status thing. (47:18) I rarely wear it. It's a reminder of God's faithfulness and promise to me. So, the question is, would I be able to give it away? And I think actually I probably would. I'm not holding on to that. That's funny because I've been praying that someone would give me an I think I think one other thing on this that just came to mind when you telling that story is that part of the problem of worrying about oh can I can I have anything for me because it's not right because you know the world is full of need. We could very easily give (47:48) everything we had and it still not be even vaguely enough and still feel bad about having anything, you know, having clothes, having anything to eat. You know, that there's always stuff you can give to. Um, but the gospel is all about what we receive. It's not about what we do. It's not about what we earn. It's not about how good we are. (48:08) It's what we receive. And and sometimes there's a challenge in our heart that actually we're not in a position where we can receive anything from God because we're so tied up with guilt or I should do this, I should do that. Um and money is is a classic there. Um and so there's something actually of of you know holding it lightly saying God you know if there's a particular thing you want it might be a holiday it might be something you want to buy submit it to God and say God I I'd love this. (48:37) is that, you know, can can I have that kind of thing? And and being able to receive is actually a vital part, I think, of walking with God. And uh and when we when we can't do it because we're so bound up with guilt, then we miss out actually the whole gospel because we're not receiving God's grace. So true. (48:55) Billy Graham said, "God's given you two hands, one with which to receive and one with which to give." And I think that there's a balance to that. the the Corinthians talks about how God gives seed to for us to sew. In other words, God's going to give us things to give. (49:14) If that, you know, whether that's money, whether that's possessions, time, intellect, wisdom, skill sets, whatever it is, once you've got it, the question is God, how can I bless people? How can I give into your kingdom with what you've given me? Right? So, I I know business. I know online business. So, God, how can I use that to grow the church? how can I help that to build your kingdom? It's just a question that's perpetually in my head. (49:38) So, whatever God's giving you, look for ways to give that away. Not just money, but money is obviously important and and give that away as well. Um, but yeah, you've got two hands, one with which to receive and one with which to give. And and that is a load of fun. I mean, it it really is fun. Um, and and I'm sure there's lots of stories about it. (49:55) I mean, one that occurred to me just listening to you, Jack, was I'd been saving for a camera lens. I' I'd finally got a decent camera. I really love taking photos and I was I've been saving up for this camera lens and I think there was something yeah whatever community I was part of at the time someone had like needed a a car or something their car had like failed um they needed a few hundred pounds or something for uh for another car small children and I was just like and immediately I thought it's my lens fund that I've been saving up and I probably had I don't know it probably was a (50:26) couple hundred quid that I've been saving up over months and months so it was like okay So away I gave that next week tax refund doubled doubled the money I'd saved and it's like okay what do I do with this? It's like no no that's for the lens you you do it and and and have you can kind of do both and you can have it all but yeah yeah and I think God really wants to get our attention on that and he wants us to to test him out on that and again it's the is the fear faith thing. It's very counterintuitive, isn't it? Because when you if you give more away, (50:58) then well, that surely increases the fear because you've got less. But it actually it flips it around. Yeah. And that I mean that just speaks so beautifully about the kingdom of God, the upside down nature of it. Um but I was thinking I know people who have absolutely nothing and have a great joy. I also know people who have absolutely nothing and you could tell how miserable they are. They've they've not quite grasped it. And likewise for people who have loads. (51:30) I've known people who have loads and just want more. Can't wait to get that extension. Can't wait to get this. Can't wait to go on that big holiday. Whatever it is, but also I've known people who have loads and who are so generous and who it doesn't mean anything to them. So I think in a way it doesn't matter. I think you know Paul talks about I've had plenty. (51:48) I've had nothing to live as Christ and um to die as gain. He's got his eyes. It's the heart. It's a who is on the throne of your our hearts. That's that's what all of this comes down to. And I think yeah, ultimately God might give us something, the desires of our hearts. Um and it's okay to want something and it's okay to ask for it. (52:14) Jen's currently saying, "God, would you give us a loft extension because there's no way we can afford one." Um, I'm like, "Okay, I'll join you with that and we'll see where that goes." But, uh, I think that's okay. Um, but yeah, it's about our hearts, isn't it? Is is this that important to us or is God more important to us and his ways? Very good. That is a great place to end conversation street. (52:36) I feel like we're just starting to get into this chap. I'm not going to lie. I think we could go all night um talking about God's generosity. Um and the joy I think the joy is in the giving. Um it's good to receive, but boy is it good fun to give. And I think if you've not discovered that yet, try it. You'll you'll see what I mean. (52:58) Uh coming up next week, Will, what's what's happening next week? Yeah, we have the uh amazing Sue Aden talking about faith. Um there's a lot of Abraham in Genesis. He he's a key figure and and the whole series is in the beginning. These are kind of real foundational things for the the history of God's people. And so faith is a is the topic of next week. (53:18) Uh tune in next Sunday night to hear soon. Yes, do that. We'll be uh on Crowd Church again. Uh YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram. All of them. Just come join us. Come say how's it in the comments. Chaps, before we go, we've been talking a lot about generosity. (53:36) A closing story or a closing thought on this whole topic? I I've got a closing story because I'm aware that we're we're kind of talking I mean you know of conversions camera lenses like well yeah that's all very nice. Um we've got a neighbor who spent years uh living out in subsaran Africa and when she first moved here she they didn't really have anything because actually they they'd been in this culture where you know on a street someone has a pot or someone has a an implement of some sort and someone would go and borrow it and and that was it. It was like there was no ownership and (54:06) coming here was such a culture shock of oh everyone's got their own stuff and you need to own stuff and and that thing you said Jack about that yeah that that is so much part of our culture isn't it and and there is a richness in letting go of that kind of I own it and actually sharing it and and that that opens up a kind of community living like nothing else does really. (54:31) Um, and so yeah, that's that's I've just remembered that story and that's a real challenge because it it's it's not just about this it's not just about the stuff we have, but it it opens up so much more. Yeah. Have you got a story or a final thought? I I didn't really. (54:49) I thought that Will was taking I thought you just asking one of us. Um, no. I I I mean, you can't outgive God, can you? You can't. I think the thing that keeps coming back to me as we've been talking is this idea that there is just so much more to life than this world and and money and how quickly we can rid ourselves of the tyranny of stuff as as someone put it. Um because it just traps us. (55:19) the the wanting there's just so you know advertising is is just got bigger and more attractive. Um so the the better we can do to get ourselves into a community or put our own disciplines in place where we just take off these traps of wanting more and more the more of the fullness of life that Jesus has for us we can step into and we can experience. (55:46) Um, yeah, it's been great. Been good chat tonight. Thanks, Jack. Good to have you. Yeah, very good. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, it's been great to be with you this week. Do join us again next week. Uh, and reach out to us through the website Crowdurch. (56:04) If you're hanging around this far, you want to come join us in the Google chat, you can do that. We're going to go live on that. Oh, goodness. We're going to go we'll be there in a couple minutes. I didn't realize the time. Uh, we'll be on Google chat. The the link will be in the comments. Go.crowd.urch/me. Come join us. Come say how's it if you'd like to. We'll be in there to say hello. Uh but yeah, thank you so much for joining us this week. (56:21) God bless you. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are. Don't forget about the alpha. If you want to know more about that, head over to the website crowdurch and then we'll see you next week. That's it from us. Bye for now. [Music] [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music]