Transcript (plain) — When Your Past Follows You In

Matt: Well, good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. For those of you don't know me, my name is Matt Edmundson. It is great to be with you this evening. I am joined by the delightful Anna Kettle.

Anna: Good evening everyone, nice to be here again.

Matt: And the equally delightful Sharon Edmundson.

Sharon: Hi everybody, good to be here too.

Matt: Yes, so we have 3 people in the studio all geared up and ready for this thing called online church. So very warm welcome to you. If this is your first time with us, we just do church but online. So, uh, the way it's going to work, it's really simple. Let me get my microphone sorted out. Uh, we're going to have a talk tonight by Pete Farrington, uh, and we do this thing where we call it Conversation Street, where we talk about the talk. So any questions, any thoughts, any comments you've got, do put them in, the live stream, uh, and we will see those and it'll be great to, um, hear from you. Uh, and yeah, that's pretty much about it, isn't it, really? Uh, that's what we do. And at the end of it, we switch over to something called Live Lounge. Um, so we just have a Google Meet, where you are more than welcome to come join us. It'd be great to see you in there. So how you surviving the heat if you're in England? Uh, and welcome to everyone who's not actually still watching the tennis, or maybe are you watching the tennis and watching Crowd Church? Be honest. Are you watching the Wimbledon semi-final at the same time? Uh, we've got Sharon in the comments, Ellis, Funny Budgie Antics. I love the YouTube usernames. Uh, Lady Birkby, Catherine, uh, Rach, Ros. Um, thank you, Funny Bajigant Antics. Yes, I am very well, uh, thank you. And who have we got on the mobile stream? We've got, uh, Alicia and we've got Sonia. Um, so just so you know, we'll refer to two live streams tonight. One is the horizontal and one is the portrait for those watching on a mobile phone. YouTube, we can now do both horizontal and vertical, so we just have to watch two live streams. That's all, that's it, that's what's going on. So anyway, how we doing? How are you doing, Miss Hannah?

Anna: I'm very well. I am a little bit warm, as you alluded to before. Spent most of the afternoon in the garden. Um, yeah, had a barbecue, a bit of a water fight with the kids. Yeah, so I'm like, yeah, um, ready for this Crowd Church. If only just get out of the heat. It's cooler in the studio.

Matt: Yeah, it is really cool here. Yeah, it is really cool. That's nice though. And how's your— we have not really seen you today.

Sharon: No, no.

Matt: We live in the same house.

Sharon: We've crossed over occasionally, haven't we?

Matt: Yeah, we have.

Sharon: Yeah.

Anna: Hold on. You can't just stop there. So what have you both been doing? So you haven't crossed over.

Matt: So I have spent the day working. Do you really want to know? I've spent the day working on this little box of tricks here. Okay, uh, which connects into the comments for the live stream, which is a beautiful thing. Um, uh, hello Lily Grace. Um, uh, so yeah, so I've been working on that, making fancy electronics to help the live streams on Crowd Church.

Anna: Now I can see why Sharon's been doing something else.

Sharon: Absolutely, I wouldn't be much help with that. So I went to in-person church this morning and then came came back, made the dinner for later, which we'll have when we get in. And then I've been and done a language swap with a lady who used to be a student of mine. So, yes.

Anna: Cool.

Sharon: Slightly, slightly disappointing when I realise how good I'm not. But anyway.

Matt: But it was, it was quite different to what I was doing. Yes, very different. That's why we didn't sort of see each other. Funny Budgie Antics is off to Blackpool next weekend. Fun. Yeah, yeah. My name Louise, laugh out loud. I quite like funny budgie antics, to be fair.

Anna: You know my name, Louise, you might just get that one sticking now.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, warm welcome to everybody that is watching on the live stream. So let's jump into Pete's talk. We'll get straight into that talk and then we'll be back like a safe conversation street. So Pete's great. If you don't know Pete, I've known Pete for years. He's an absolute legend. I really enjoy hearing him talk, um, and so he's going to be helping us unpack the next sort of step in our series, Jesus the Revolutionary. So he's, um, picking that with us, and so we're going to be getting into that with him. After that, like I said, we've got Conversation Street. We'll get into your questions, your comments. I've got a whole bunch of questions based off of Pete's talk. Um, and so yeah, I'll— we'll see you in the comments, and we'll be back in, I guess— I don't know how long Pete's talking for, maybe 15-20 minutes. Uh, we'll be back for— say, how many? 20 minutes. So we'll be back after this with Pete Farrington.

Pete: Hello, crowd! It's great to be here for the next talk in our series on Jesus the Revolutionary, and the title for my talk is When Your Past Follows You In. It's going to be an interesting one, and today we're going to be looking at a passage in the Bible in the Gospel of Luke. So I'm going to be reading in chapter 7, verses 36 through 50. Let's get stuck in. So one of the Pharisees asked him— that's asked Jesus— to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house and reclined at table. And behold, a woman of the city who was a sinner, when she learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment. And standing behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, He said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner." And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "Say it, Teacher." A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed 500 denarii, and the other 50. When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more? Simon answered, "The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt." And he said to him, "You have judged rightly." Then turning toward the woman, he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears, and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much, but he who is forgiven little, loves little. And he said to her, your sins are forgiven. Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, who is this who even forgives sins? And he said to the woman, your faith has saved you. Go in peace. It's a fascinating story, this, and we see here that Jesus is the guest at a Pharisee's house. Now, the Pharisees were were the religious leaders at the time. So it'd be safe to assume that Jesus has been invited into quite an elite circle, but there is someone who's found her way there who shouldn't really be there. And Jesus's host Simon really takes exception to this and to what Jesus is allowing to happen. And Simon said in verse 37, 'If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him.' Now Simon assumes that being a prophet and knowing everything about someone's past must necessarily mean rejecting them. If Jesus were all-knowing, Simon is thinking, he would know that she does not and cannot belong here. Or to put it another way, the fact he is allowing all this to take place is proof he is not all-knowing. And on a human level, I think Simon is, is right, because we see this in our own experience, don't we? Like, if, if someone were to know your darkest secrets and the things that you are most ashamed of, and were to spend a day walking around in your head and know everything that you think, that couldn't possibly mean you could still find acceptance right? Or at least that would eventually run out. Like, we've probably all got a line beyond which we would be unwilling to step in extending invitation and showing acceptance. Like, at some point our willingness to forgive will eventually run out. But Simon here is caught thinking something that we are all too often guilty of, I think, and that is thinking that Jesus is, is just like us. Because Jesus knows her past completely and yet receives her completely. So everything in Simon is railing against what he's seeing, and to be honest, I get it. And I think a lot of Simon's and our wrestling with this is how we often— is due to how we often try to explain away the very concept of and our need for forgiveness, like when it comes to ourselves. And so that really determines everything when it comes to looking at others. And I think that we are primed to utterly reject the notion of forgiveness and without realising it, to completely redefine it for ourselves because of our preference for excuse-making and blame-shifting. C.S. Lewis explained this really well in, in an essay he wrote on forgiveness. He said this: The trouble is that what we call asking God's forgiveness very often really consists in asking God to accept our excuses. What leads us into this mistake is the fact that there usually is some amount of excuse, some extenuating circumstances. We are so very anxious to point these things out to God that we are apt to forget the very important thing. That is, the bit left over. The bit which excuses don't cover. The bit which is inexcusable, but not, thank God, unforgivable. And if we forget this, we shall go away imagining that we have repented and been forgiven, when all that has really happened is that we have satisfied ourselves with our own excuses. He goes on to say that we're only wasting our time talking about all the parts which can, we think, be excused. Because when you go to a doctor, you show him the bit of you that is wrong—say, a broken arm. It would be a mere waste of time to keep on explaining that your legs and throat and eyes are all right. You may be mistaken in thinking so, actually. And anyway, if they really are right, the doctor will know that. C.S. Lewis went on, a great deal of our anxiety to make excuses comes from not really believing in it, from thinking that God will not take us to himself again unless he is satisfied that some sort of case can be made out in our favour. But that is not forgiveness at all. Real forgiveness means looking steadily at the sin, the sin that is left over without any excuse after all allowances have been made, and seeing it in all its horror, dirt, meanness, and malice, and nevertheless being wholly reconciled to the man who has done it. Wow, this made so much sense to me when I first read it, and I think that Simon is thinking in terms of excuses, not forgiveness. Because he can see no excuses whatsoever that can be made for this woman and her past, and no justification at all for her presence amongst such company as himself. And I think that if we were to rewrite this passage and adapt it so that Jesus's response was according to modern sensibilities, it would very possibly sound something something like this: Simon, I have something to say to you. We must stop essentialising this woman through the harmful label of sinner. That language perpetuates stigma and reinforces exclusionary power structures. Instead, we should affirm her authentic lived experience and recognise that her behaviours emerged from a complex matrix of socioeconomic disadvantage. Patriarchal oppression, and structural inequity that constrained her agency. Calls to repentance merely perpetuate shame culture. What she needs is affirmation, empowerment, and the redistribution of social power. Simon, I invite you into a posture of radical allyship, where you decenter your privilege, examine your implicit biases, and participate in dismantling the systems that produced this harm. Now, in all seriousness, some of those things really may have been true of the culture at the time, really. And there usually are some extenuating circumstances, as C.S. Lewis said. But Jesus shows no interest at all in ruminating on excuses, and he wastes no time on that. Because, and this is so important I think for us in this day and age, doing so would have done nothing to solve her greatest problem. Jesus is instead concerned with, as C.S. Lewis put it, the bit which excuses don't cover and the sin that is left over without any excuse. And it's really interesting because Jesus himself acknowledges the reality of this woman's sin more fully than anyone else in the room. He responded to Simon's objections by telling a story, a parable. And I love how he begins, "Simon, I have something to say to you." You know at that point he's in trouble. But Jesus depicts this woman as the one in the parable for whom the moneylender cancelled the larger debt. And in verse 47, he refers to her sins, which are many. So while Simon is thinking to himself, Jesus, let me enlighten you as to what kind of woman this is that you're allowing to touch you. Well, Jesus is actually like, no, Simon, I know. I know her sins better than you do, and they are more than you know. So there really is no case to be made out in her favour. The narrator calls her a sinner right at the beginning. The Pharisee condemns her, a sinner in his thoughts. This assessment is devastating and it's unanimous, and even Jesus agrees. He never challenges it, and crucially, she didn't either. She didn't disagree. She never uttered a word, and, and her silence indicates that she has no objection. She didn't try to come up with excuses. She just saw herself rightly. She knew that she was a sinner, and she knew how much she needed forgiveness. "He who is forgiven little loves little," Jesus said. And then he asks Simon the killer question: "Which of them will love him more? Is it the one who owed 500 denarii?" Or the one who owed 50? Simon answered correctly, and he walked straight into the trap. Because the woman in the room is the one who loves extravagantly, and Simon is the one who didn't even offer water for Jesus' feet. Now, Jesus' point was not necessarily that the woman had sinned more than the Pharisee, or that the Pharisee only needed to be forgiven a little. He, like, he wasn't saying that it would cost less to save this woman than to say that— he wasn't saying that it would cost less to save the Pharisee, sorry, than to save the woman. But his point was that this woman loved much because she had recognised just how wretched her condition was. She knew how high her sins piled up, and she came knowing that Jesus was her only hope. She didn't claim, as we would today, I am enough. She just knew that she was profoundly inadequate. She knew that she was guilty, and she didn't deflect blame and point her finger at the system saying, "Jesus, my condition is really just the result of this unjust society I live in, and you don't know what my upbringing was like." No, she knew she was guilty and undeserving of forgiveness, and her silence said that it really was as bad as they said. And worse. There was no attempt to try and trick Jesus into thinking that there really wasn't that much to forgive or that there were just lots of excuses to accept. Jesus actually shared many parables in his ministry, and there's another one that I think sheds more light on this. In Luke, Jesus told a parable. This is Luke 18. He told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and treated others with contempt. Two men went up into the temple to pray, Jesus said, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, a sinner! I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted. We see in, in this story of the woman and the Pharisee, we see a man who— well, we see in this, in this parable, we see a man who had satisfied himself with his own excuses or with the kind of thinking that 'At least I'm not as bad as this other guy. At least I'm not like others.' And we see that juxtaposed with a man who, just like the woman weeping at Jesus' feet, is looking steadily, steadily at her sin and recognising it for what it is. Now, if you're anything like me, on the morning of an appointment at the dentist You'll brush your teeth, you'll brush your teeth? You'll brush your teeth twice as long as usual and maybe the night before you won't have any dessert, you know, as if that will make any difference whatsoever. But that's what I do, as if the dentist won't notice the massive cavity. Now I'm married to a dentist, so she's just like, Pete, do you think I'm stupid? Do you think I won't notice? But this woman in today's passage doesn't do that. She doesn't do that. She stares steadily at her sin and she doesn't try and cover it up. So what happens when all excuses have been taken into account, when all allowances have been made, and when your past follows you everywhere you go, just like this woman? And when the accusations abound, and worst of all, when the accusations are true and valid, and when your heart also condemns you, what do you do then? Well, one of the most mind-blowing things about the Gospel is that the one who knows you most intimately is the very one who will be your defence and your advocate if you humble yourself before him. Just like this woman did. I think one of the most precious verses in the Bible to me is found in 1 John 3:19-20. It says, "By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him. For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart and he knows everything." The one who knows everything, your deepest, darkest secrets, will be your defence if you trust him. Says in Isaiah 42:3 about Jesus, this was a prophecy about Jesus, "A bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench." That's what we see in this story, in the way that Jesus interacted with this woman. A bruised reed he will not break, a faintly burning wick he will not quench. Something that Spurgeon said about this passage was, he said that some like this Simon really struggle against the bounty of grace. Like, how could such a woman as she be permitted to draw so near to Christ? Certain people will demand, how should Jesus give to such unworthy ones such acceptance, such manifestations of himself, such privileges. Our Lord took upon himself to defend her, and therefore she might well afford to hold her tongue. So shall it be with you. If Satan accuse you and your enemies with loud-mouthed accusations cry out against you, you have an advocate with God the Father. Your advocate is Jesus Christ the righteous, who will certainly plead your cause and clear you. And that's what we see, Jesus pleading her cause and clearing her. In verse 50, he said, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace." And Jesus addresses her directly, publicly, and with so much dignity. The one who humbles himself will be exalted, we read in that other parable. And how she was exalted here, in a room full of people, people whispering about her, condemning her, he speaks to her and he leaves— she leaves with a pronouncement of peace from the mouth of God. And look how he sees and rewards every expression of her humility and contrition and gratitude and adoration, and how he exalts her. He praises her for how, even though his guest gave him no water, that she was the one who who wet, wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. His guest gave him no kiss, but from the time he came in, she never ceased to kiss his feet. He says all of this publicly in front of everyone who had been condemning her, and she had no basis from which to make a defence, and she no longer even has a need to do so. She doesn't even utter a word because he is her defence. Because Jesus doesn't do the saving after we have done our part and after we've made ourselves look presentable and after we've patched ourselves up and brought ourselves into a savable state. Jesus said in Mark 2:17, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." Jesus saves us at our worst. Another of my favourite passages in the Bible is found in Romans 5:6-8. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person, though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die. But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Stunning, stunning. I'm going to leave you with this. In Psalm 103:12, it says, as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. So far does he remove our pasts from us. So in the gospel, the only distance that is greater than that between you and a righteousness of your own, or an innocence of your own, the only distance greater than that is the distance that God places between you and your sin. So thank you very much for listening, and I'll hand you back to Conversation Street.

Matt: And there we go. Just had a blank screen. Um, thanks Pete, uh, as always, great talk. So much, isn't there, when Pete talks? It's just, yeah, you're just like, dude, this is insane. It's not insane, it's really good. I really enjoy it.

Anna: I think he's got like one of the best vocabularies. I can't even say the word vocabulary. Um, but do you know what I mean? Like, he's got— he's such a great wordy person. I love it. He's just— yeah.

Sharon: So I really love the, the way that he rewrote what the conversation as it would have been. But at the same time, I had to focus quite hard because the vocabulary was quite extensive.

Matt: Yeah, it is. Shall I read it again? Because I have it here. Okay. Uh, I'm, I'm all always a big fan of satire, um, in, in your Christian sermons. So, Simon, I have something to say to you. We must stop essentialising this woman through the harmful label of sinner. The language perpetuates stigma and reinforces exclusionary power structures. Instead, we should affirm her authentic lived experience and recognise that her behaviours emerged from a complex matrix of socioeconomic disadvantage, patriarchal oppression, and structural inequity that constrained her agency. I mean, this is just— it's poetry, isn't it?

Sharon: It did make me chuckle inside because it's like, I can just see somebody rewriting it like that.

Matt: Yeah, my favourite line: calls to repentance merely perpetuate shame culture, which I thought was such a good line. Um, uh, what she needs is affirmation, empowerment, and the redistribution of social power. Simon, I invite you into a posture of radical allyship where you decenter your privilege, examine your implicit biases, and participate in dismantling the system that produced this harm. we could just talk about that all night. That, that single statement there wraps up so much of what's true in culture at the moment, isn't it?

Sharon: Yeah, we were just talking before, actually, um, me and Anna, before the livestream went on, because I used to go into schools and do assemblies many years ago. Um, we did Christian assemblies, so each time we went in, we would do a different section of the Bible, just an easy, like, memory verse, and we would teach the kids, and then we would teach them what it meant through games and, um, little, I don't know, illustrations and stories and that kind of thing. And one time we wanted to go and do the Four Points For those of you who don't know, the Four Points is a simple way of kind of explaining why Jesus came. So the Four Points are: God loves me, I have sinned, yeah, Jesus died for me, I need to decide to live for God. Yeah. And I realised this would be quite controversial, so I was like, we probably need to check that the schools are actually happy for us to do this. And I remember one school in particular was happy for us to do all of it apart from the line, "I have sinned." And it's like the rest kind of falls apart if you don't include that, because then if you don't have that, there's no need for Jesus to die. But it was that sense of we don't like to talk about sin, and in some ways it is kind of a religious word, isn't it? Yeah, I think there's, there's not really another word that necessarily in English gets the meaning across.

Anna: But I think that that's maybe part of the problem, isn't it? That in our modern culture, we don't really fully understand what the word sin means, or we don't— it's quite a religious term, isn't it? Yeah. So if you haven't grown up in church, it's hard to— it is hard to kind of explain what sin is. But really, like, how it was always explained to me as growing up, growing up as a kid, was that it's not about like a really, like, crazy wild lifestyle necessarily, or being a really evil person, you know. Like, we, we think in those extreme terms, don't we? But actually, how it's explained to me is just living selfishly and anything that falls short of God's very, very best holy standard, which of course is all of us every day. Like, you know, we all you know, around this table, and, and, you know, other people around our lives, like, we all kind of think of ourselves as okay people, you know, professional, you know, quite good values, like, quite nice lives. Yeah, you know, we're good parents, we're nice people, like, we're, you know, we're good Christian people, we try to do the right thing. We're not perfect, but, but it is that lack of perfection, like, lack of hitting God's perfect standard, and And that, that for me is like when you actually strip back sin to not be like, oh, it's not, it's not saying people are evil or really bad. It's saying they're falling short of God's very perfect standard, which of course we all do because we're all a bit self-centred in the end. Yeah. So yeah, that, that's kind of, I think so much of that therapising, is that a word?

Matt: It's a great word. Yeah. Yeah.

Anna: Therapy and You know, it's not, it's not wrong. Like, all of that stuff that was said about patriarchal society and different things that can damage people, it's all true, isn't it? Like, the socioeconomic system does damage people, but it's not— even if you took all that away and fixed all of that and somebody had a much better quality of life and were less broken, it might take away their brokenness but doesn't take away their sinfulness. And that sinfulness is falling short of God's perfect standard. Yeah. So it's like, it still doesn't take away that because, look, we've got all those things. We're nice, middle class, well brought up, but we're still sinful. Yeah, like it doesn't fix that stuff, does it? No. So in a way I'm like, yes, yes, all that stuff's fine, but it doesn't fix the spiritual problem, which is our state before God. What do you think, Matt?

Matt: I, I think it's a really interesting— I think it's a really interesting point, Anna. And again, this comes back to the C.S. Lewis quote that when we, um, what we're actually asking God to do when we ask for forgiveness is for God to accept our excuses. And I, again, just— it's such a wonderful thing. And I think I get that people go through stuff, right? I genuinely do. And I get that people go through really bad stuff, um, and we all know stories, maybe from our own lives, maybe from people that we know Um, and we all know the stories that come through. And so I don't— I mean, you know, Pete's not being flippant when he talks about these things at all. I think he has been, um, I think it is satire, I really do. But I think that, um, we've conditioned ourselves to go, I'm okay because of these excuses, right? So because I have this reason Therefore it's not my fault. Therefore I don't have to accept any form of responsibility. Yeah, for myself.

Sharon: I totally relate to this because, um, I think the one of the first times that I properly remember coming up against that, of, of having that revelation that I was using excuses not to take on my own things, I was like, I'm like this because of what they've done and not wanting to go actually, or not wanting to look at my own sin because I was too busy blaming someone else. But when you take the blame out of the way, it doesn't mean that that was okay. But I think this actually, this passage, it takes it seriously. It takes our own sin seriously, but it also takes seriously what was done to us. So it's like, you know, everyone will be called to account, I think, for what for their part. So if you have been wronged by somebody, they are responsible before God for that. Yeah, but we're responsible for our bit. And then, and I also relate really well to the bit where he was saying, when you know that you've been forgiven much, that you love much. Again, I think of times when I've been sort of had that real revelation of, oh, how dark my sin is. And again, I'm not talking big things, things that other people would possibly just brush off. But when you get a sense of that from God's point of view and you go, oh, actually this is really ugly, and then receiving that forgiveness, it's just like, oh wow, this is actually amazing to be fully seen but also to be fully loved at the same time. It's incredible.

Matt: That's an interesting idea, isn't it? Or an interesting phrase, to be fully seen. And again, Pete used that, didn't he? To be fully seen, to be fully known, to fully understand everything, you know, the whole— all the reasons, um, to fully understand your history, what has happened to you, um, and what's happened maybe because of you. And I loved what Pete said at the end of that person who knows everything becomes your greatest advocate, even on the bits— well, on the bits that weren't your fault, but also on the bits that are, right? And, um, that's not just— and again, we have to be really careful, I think, don't we? Because that's not to say if you have suffered something horrific, you were at blame in that one specific thing. That's not what we're saying at all. Um, but I think what we are saying is None of us are perfect, and we've all done stuff which the Bible calls sin, and we can't escape that. And we can, we can try and come up with the excuses for it, um, but ultimately you have to stand before Christ and go, I, I have to acknowledge my part in this whole life, not necessarily one event that— or multiple events that were horrific. I think it's just really important to be clear on that. Yeah, right.

Sharon: Yeah, it reminds me as well of, um, Jesus. Obviously the, the Jewish people at the time were expecting this Messiah to come, and in their head the Messiah was gonna overthrow the Roman occupation or whoever they, you know, that was what at the time. And Jesus comes along and doesn't do that, but goes, hang on a minute, I actually want to talk about you. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, obviously there's lots of bad things that happened within the Roman occupation, so it wasn't like he was saying that's okay, but he's like, actually, let's take it even to further down, and all of you are also sinners.

Anna: Um, but it's like at the heart of Christianity really then, isn't it, that you know, that, that it's not enough to just change systems and structures and world leaders. You know, there's a few we'd probably like to switch around right now in the world, aren't there? But, but like, that in itself doesn't fix the problem because one imperfect, self-centred, egotistical, usually male but not always, leader is, you know, and then the next empire comes in to replace it. Like removing empire and systems and doesn't fix the heart issue because it is a personal heart issue in every person. Because you can keep removing those things, can't you? But the core issue is inside me, inside you, inside each of us. And Jesus— it's interesting that Jesus came and he was like exactly that. I don't want to talk about the big systems. I want to talk about your heart and your heart and each of our hearts. Yeah, because that's the only thing that changes the world.

Sharon: Yeah, if our hearts are right, then we will want to change the systems. Yeah. Yeah, if our hearts aren't right, it's quite easy just to keep within those systems.

Anna: But also, the only way that a system will change is everybody's heart is changed towards God in that system.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. Uh, Alicia has put in the comments, I struggle with the idea that I sin because of X or Y, but X and Y isn't the point. The sin is the point. Um, which is very— I, I would agree. Um, actually, it is the, the sin which is the point. What do you think to the— go on, you're going to say something.

Anna: I was just going to say, I think the whole idea of struggling with recognising our own sin and accepting forgiveness, it's sort of like what it leaves us with is a sort of cheap grace. Like, if we can't fully recognise our sinful nature, then we can't fully accept— yeah, like, receive God's forgiveness and God's grace. And so the whole thing is like, it's like cheap. It's a cheap version. Like, if we don't— yeah, it just feels like the— like you say, Sharon, the whole thing falls apart.

Matt: Yeah, that's such a— it's such a— that the, the cheap grace idea is so powerful because actually this is what we see, isn't it, in the, in the parable, um, with Jesus, uh, and asking Simon, you know, the 50 versus 500 denarii Um, who's forgiven more? And he walks straight into it, doesn't he? He goes, oh, and he— and then Jesus turns around to him and says, yeah, but you didn't give me a drink, which is what he should have done. Yeah, with hospitality. There was no kiss, and he didn't give him water for his feet, right? So the things he should have done as a religious leader, he didn't do because he was too busy condemning somebody who was doing the things that he should have been doing, right?

Sharon: It does make you wonder as well, because there's a good host— because it sounds like they were already there, so Jesus had arrived before she came in, so he should have done those things. So it's like, why didn't he? Maybe it was out of a sense of pride or a bit like snubbing him a little bit, or— yeah, so there was something going on there that wasn't great already.

Matt: Yeah, it's a good point, isn't it? But again, going back to the, the point though, that Simon was experiencing a cheap grace, right? The back to your, your phrase, Anna, whereas this woman who we don't know who she is. I mean, I know that there's some theory that maybe it's Mary Magdalene. I would argue that it isn't, um, not that we will form a theology out of it, but, um, there's, you know, this, this woman has been forgiven much, and she has experienced a depth of grace. She didn't argue with the— this is another point that came out— she didn't argue with the fact that she was called a sinner. The narrator, Simon, and Jesus all agree that her sins are many. I mean, for, you know, and she never disagrees with that. She never excuses herself. She, she never— as to quote, uh, Pete— she never says, 'I'm enough.' Um, and she experiences a profound grace as a result, right? And I think It's a really interesting point, isn't it, that you— to experience God's grace like that, I think you have got to come to a place where there is this sort of revelation or this understanding of the sin in our own heart, right?

Sharon: Yeah, I've got— I've written down a few ideas on different ways that we can respond when we— because I think we all notice that sin in our own lives, although Although I would say sometimes I think people can feel guilty when actually then they're not guilty. You know, if you've been trained to feel like everything's your fault, there can be this false guilt that actually doesn't belong.

Matt: Well, that's the other side of it, isn't it?

Sharon: Yeah, but I think there is that sense of we, we don't always even meet our own standards, let alone God's standards, and we know that we don't. So we've either— we've got choices. We can deny that there's anything wrong and just like push it aside. We can make excuses like Pete talked about, or we can change the rules. So it can be a case of like, I wonder whether that's why we get, you know, oh, it's my truth. We're the ones that make the rules so that we can kind of fit the standard, whereas if we had to go by God's rules, it's like we fall apart. Yeah. So there are three like not so helpful choices that I think we have. Yeah. But then the one that we have here is actually to recognise it, sit in it, and then receive that grace. Yeah, yeah.

Anna: Do you feel like part of the reason then that Simon is kind of a bit judgy, you know, like we— it's easy, we can all be judgmental at times, but yeah, part of the reason that he's so judgmental of this woman when she comes in and she has this extravagant kind of lavish sort of, um, she just serves Jesus, doesn't she? She's like at his feet and she's like lavishly gifts her like love on him, and she's like not holding back. And he's kind of a little bit like scornful of it. Yeah, I think that's kind of part of the cheap grace thing as well. Like, yeah, it's almost like because he hasn't fully engaged with the process of understanding his own sin and fully accepting forgiveness and his need for God's mercy, he's not fully— he can't extend it to anyone else. So I think this whole thing of being able to accept and, and see your own sinfulness and then accept forgiveness also allows you to change your posture to other people. Like, yeah, yeah, like you said, like, those who've been forgiven much love much. Yeah. Or something like that, isn't it? And yeah, and I think he's got this quite harsh, ungracious view of this woman who's come in, very broken woman, and he's quite scornful of her. And I think that's part of the symptom of not really seeing your own sin. Yeah. And having that process yourself. And so, yeah, it's all one and the same, really. Like, it, it's, it prevents you receiving forgiveness, but then it also prevents you extending it to other people too. Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon: I think it's the kind of the difference between religion, where you're trying to do all the right things to make you feel like you're a good person, or actually that relationship with God through Jesus, where you recognise your own sin and shortcomings and receive God's grace. For one, you get more judgmental. The other, yeah, you can be more gracious. Yeah, like you just said.

Matt: Well, there it's true, isn't it? Because that— he who has been forgiven much loves much, right? And if you— and that's— here's the thing, that's not because you've committed— if you've been forgiven much, I think it's because you've acknowledged how much sin you have. And the person that's been forgiven little is not because they're living a better life, it's just because they're a lot more closed off to the sin that they've committed. Yeah, right. And I think— here's my observation— we live in a culture that tries very hard to not accept any kind of blame whatsoever, right? We've almost been conditioned— unless you work in insurance industry or legal, because where there's a blameless client, where there's a blame— where they— again, that's not your fault though, is it?

Anna: No, no, no, there's always no, no fault.

Matt: Yeah, it's always somebody else's fault, so we can sue them. Yeah. Um, but because we've been conditioned not to accept any kind of blame, I would argue to say that one of the most beautiful things about Christianity is getting to a place where you fully face that blame. And it's a really hard thing to do, but actually when you do, that's when you experience being forgiven much, right? It's, it's, it leads to something extraordinarily wonderful when you acknowledge that sin. Whereas if you don't, and if you're closed off to it, and we do this blame other people, give excuses, we don't experience the fullness of God's grace. And I think we miss out as a result, right?

Sharon: We've got a question here. It says, might sound a bit stupid, but any advice on actually accepting God's forgiveness? That is totally not a stupid question. That's a very good question. I'll throw that one out there.

Matt: Any advice? Yes, um, always. I think first, you— to accept God's forgiveness, you have to be willing, like we've just said, to accept, um, or to take responsibility for your— the state of your heart, for your own sin, right? And be totally open and blunt about that and No holds barred. We're not looking for things, right? The Holy Spirit will bring things up. It's not like you need to go back to your childhood and repent of, you know, ask God's forgiveness for licking your mate's ice cream. It's, it's not— do you know what I mean? It's not that kind of thing unless God shows you. Unless God shows you. Yeah, yeah. That's the beautiful thing. The Holy Spirit sort of puts that on your heart, right? And I think if you're not a Christian, you— one of the things you, you do when you, when you become a Christian is you face— actually, you go to this idea that actually I have sinned, and therefore, you know, I need to come to Christ and ask forgiveness. And all through your walk with God, there will be occasions when that happens. When that does happen, when God illuminates something, you get it before God there and then. I think I would probably talk to— depending on what it is, talk to a trusted counselor or friend, um, or pastor or whoever, um, about it. Bring accountability. I think when it comes to those kind of things sin left in darkness is never great, but when you talk about it with other people, it brings it into the light. And then, like you said earlier on, I think it's, it's really easy with religion to live a shameful life, in a life full of shame, um, is what I'm saying. I mean, it's like you have been forgiven and there is a grace The grace doesn't leave you the way you were. It points to who he is, and it transforms you into what you, you are. And I think we find it really easy to live under the guilt and the shame of past sins. And so you find yourself going through this repeat, rinse and repeat cycle of constantly asking God to forgive you for the same things, um, and it, it can bring that guilt and shame. And I think that's I think that's one of the side effects. I think on, on one hand, a lot of people need to experience more shame. I mean, they ain't no shame in your game, as they say. Um, but on the other hand, I think once you have brought it to God and he has forgiven you, there is no need to feel shame about that. And we don't need to live these lives full of shame.

Sharon: I find it really useful in that the Bible often talks about sin in terms of debt, as if like a money debt, although obviously it's not money. So either when we've been sinned against, it's like someone owes us a debt, or if we sin against God, it's like we owe God. And so I found it useful to actually write out the stuff that the Holy Spirit's bringing up. Yeah. And almost like, um, what's it, like an accounting sheet of like, yeah, this, this, this, and then pray through each one and just like, ask God for help, because we do need help with this sometimes, don't we? And the passage that, um, oh, it was read out about why we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Yeah, I found that really helpful in terms of, okay, Jesus died for me even before this happened. So it's like he, he's fully aware of all that. And so to pray through each one of the things on my list And then as I've prayed through them, that it's like actively choosing to receive that forgiveness. Because you can, in your head, you can have like a block up, like, I can't receive that. It's like making that choice, okay, I receive that, and then crossing it off the bit of paper, like, okay, that debt's paid. And like, then thanking God, okay, Jesus, I accept. Like, actually speaking out loud, going, Jesus, I, I, um, confess I've done this. I, I receive your forgiveness for this, and I accept that you've washed that completely clean. And I think that's really important.

Anna: Um, it's a really important point to make that you do that process and then it's done. It's like a once-and-done thing. You don't have to keep revisiting or keep feeling bad. And if you do find yourself in that cycle, then talk to someone about it because you need to deal with that. That's not where God wants you going round and round and round the same sins.

Sharon: I think that's another reason I find it helpful to have that bit of paper, because yeah, if you do remember it again, you can go, hang on a minute, now I've, I've prayed through that one, that one is cancelled, that debt's cancelled, I don't owe that anymore. And then you can— and, and I think if you're someone who's used to just going round and round, though, I've not been forgiven, it can take a while for your brain to just be like you know, to keep choosing to believe that you've been forgiven. Um, so that can take a bit of practice, I think.

Matt: Yeah, but you do get there, don't you? Yeah, you do. Uh, Stephanie has put in the comments, are we missing how radical Jesus was being culturally? Simon was absolutely right to say what he did. Yes, he was. Um, Jesus is rejecting everything the religion of the day said was important. Is he rejecting it, or is he, is he giving a greater standard maybe, or he's bringing a greater grace perhaps, um, replacing, replacing it maybe? But what do you think to Stephanie's comment? Are we missing how radical Jesus was being?

Anna: I mean, yeah, Jesus was totally radical, and that's the whole point of this series, isn't it? Like, Jesus is a revolutionary. He he took what the religious structures of the time did, and he said, "No, no, no, that's not how it works. I've got something so much better for you," which is this radical kind of forgiveness. If you confess your sins, you're forgiven. You know, and there's not this constant need to keep fulfilling the law and requirements. You know, the rules, keep following the rules, keep being good enough out of your own strength. He blows that out of the water and says, No, no, you'll never be good enough in your own strength. You've gotta ask me for the help. Give me your sin, ask me for the help, let me kind of take you to where you can never take yourself, which is to be free.

Matt: Um, that's a beautiful thing, isn't it? Because again, when you look at the story with the— with what the woman's doing, um The one thing I didn't really touch on it, but it's worth understanding, um, the one thing that's one of the things that's really important in this story is the hair detail, right? Um, I'm not going to make any jokes about women and hair, but, um, the hair detail is genuinely scandalous. A respectable woman in that culture kept her hair bound up in public. Letting it down was intimate, reserved for the home. And so she ends up wiping his feet with her loosed hair. Um, and this is far bolder and more socially shocking than it reads to us, right? And this is a really interesting point. So back to your point about how radical Jesus is being— actually, this woman's also been a little bit radical, and Jesus is not responding to the fact she's let her hair down. Again, going back to Stephanie's point about not dialing into what people thought was important at the time, but genuinely getting to the fact that this woman was doing something because she had experienced the grace of God that day.

Anna: It reminds me of that verse in the Bible that says, um, you know, humans, mankind, look at the outside appearance, but God looks at the heart. Yeah. And, and I think that's what Jesus was doing in this moment. Like, everyone else in the room was like, that's so culturally shocking, she's overstepped the line, women shouldn't behave like that, especially not in those days. It's like, you know, I've read that it's equivalent of like kind of, you know, being very, very forward with a married man or something in front of a big group of people. And yet Jesus doesn't look at the outside appearance. He sees straight to a heart. And a heart is right. Like, their actions might seem culturally shocking at the time, but her heart was right for Jesus, and that's what he saw. So I think that's really interesting. It's like that dynamic of everyone else is like, but that's not what culture or religiosity says we should do. Yeah, but Jesus sees her heart is like just so in love with him and wants to—

Matt: and that's, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, that's a— it's a lovely thing as well, isn't it? It just, it's like Jesus was okay with it, you know. Um, Alicia said, uh, you've articulated something I've been struggling to put into words. I frequently ask for forgiveness for the same sins, especially during a depressive episode where self-hatred gets strong. Any thoughts on that?

Sharon: Um, well, she said that what we talked about kind of spoke to that already, so It's interesting, the self-hatred comment jumps out to me.

Matt: Yeah, in the sense that, um, I— again, I think that Romans 8 says there's no condemnation. We use this a lot in church, right? There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. It's like a chapter after, um, where Paul says, um, you know, we've all sinned, as we all fall short of the glory of God. Um, and he goes on to say He talks about it like a— he calls it the body of death. Um, in Romans 7, there's this sort of really fascinating language with how Paul describes this sort of life being trapped in this sort of circle of sin, for want of a better expression. And he calls it a body of death. And right at the end of chapter 7, he says, who's going to rescue me, um, from this body of death? And he says, um, thanks be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And he goes, therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And I think there's a difference between conviction and condemnation, right? So the Holy Spirit can convict you of your sin, in which case my advice is repent of it, don't try and hide from it. Easier said than done. But, and to repent, by the way, just means to turn around, just means confess it and don't do it anymore, just, you know, change your behaviour. But there So there's a difference between conviction and condemnation. Condemnation comes from, you know, a source that is pure evil. And I think that loathing, that self-hatred, that condemnation, that shame never comes from God. There's a really interesting verse, uh, that says it is the goodness or the kindness of God that leads you to repentance. Not the anger of God, not the God sitting down judging you with the finger. And it is the goodness, it is the kindness of God that when you understand that, it leads you to this place where you can repent. Repent, turn around, to acknowledge your sin, to turn around from it, to not do it anymore, to change your ways, to change your behaviour, and to put that to one side because you want to do something which pleases God. You want to do something which is more fulfilling. And so we, we do that. Um, but you're right, you can get caught up in this whole cycle of self-hatred, um, and condemnation if you're not careful. And so I think it's important to acknowledge that and acknowledge that's not from God.

Sharon: Yeah, I think for all of us that our mind is a battlefield, um, and that can be made worse if you do suffer from depression for whatever reason. Um, but the Bible again talks about being transformed by the renewing of your mind, and that's kind of like an active— like, um, if a thought comes into our heads, we don't have to believe it, although it can be very hard not to. And we can be like, okay, this thought's come in, but I recognise that's not true. And even though I might feel it's true right now, I'm going to reject that thought and I'm going to accept God's truth. Yeah. And I think over time your feelings can change with that. Might not be instant. I've definitely had times where my feelings have said one thing and I've been like, hang on a minute, that's not actually true what I'm feeling and thinking. But to get me from where that's my normal state to the normal state being like, oh yeah, I actually can feel this now, sometimes can take a very long time. Um, so yeah, I just wouldn't Don't give up.

Matt: Very good. Well, I'm aware of time, ladies. Uh, feels like we're just getting warmed up in our conversation.

Sharon: Yeah, there's so much more I've got in my head, but yeah.

Matt: So, uh, quickly in closing then. Well, let's do that. Any final thoughts, comments from you?

Sharon: I just need to gather my thoughts.

Matt: Okay, I'll go to Anna first.

Anna: Um, I just think, yeah, don't— for me, that this whole area is like not about going searching for stuff. They don't go picking back through all your history in the past, but just as you said, like when you're praying, when you're spending time with God, if the Holy Spirit, um, brings something up in God's presence or gives you a little nudge and you— something drops into your mind, then go with that. But don't start digging all your past up just for the sake of it. I suppose that was the only other point I wanted to make. Yeah, let it be God-led, otherwise it is just really you revisiting. Yeah, your own past over and over.

Matt: Very good. Very true.

Sharon: Yeah, a little one. So one of the things I like about this story is that Jesus took the woman's shame. So see, when she came in with her hair down, that was seen as shameful, and all the— her actions were seen as shameful. And so all the crowd would have been focused on her as, this is a shameful woman. But rather than Jesus joining in and going, oh yeah, she's wrong, and keeping the shame on her, he deflects it and takes it onto himself by treating her very differently and actually treating her with respect. And yeah, actually going, actually, she's got it right. Um, yeah. And I think there's lots of different stories where that happens, where the crowd are on an individual, like the same as Zacchaeus and others, where— yeah, and then Jesus just shifts their thinking and takes the focus off them and puts it all on himself. And that's what we see him do on the cross, isn't it? Yeah, he takes the shame. So if you are feeling shame, you don't— you don't need to be carrying that. It's like that's what Jesus came to take from us. Yeah, very good. Very good.

Matt: Yeah, I think I— my final comment would be this: be radical.

Sharon: Um, in a good way. In a good way.

Matt: Yeah, I just— in the sense that we see Jesus, who is a radical Savior and radically forgiving, radically accepting, radically restoration. Grace is a radical concept. It's all very, very radical. But the woman was radical in the story. She was radical in the sense there was no holds barred, there was no excuses, there was no blame. There was just her and Jesus. And in this beautiful moment, she experiences grace because of her radical honesty. Um, and I would just be radical, um, and you'd experience God's grace. Because I love what Pete said, um, the guy that sees everything becomes your advocate, uh, and, um, the Bible tells us he lives to make intercession for us, which is just Very good. Jesus is praying for us right now, which is awesome on so many levels. Anyway, uh, I'm aware of time. We've run over a little bit, uh, the conversation, uh, went, went on. Uh, I loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. Thank you, ladies. Uh, can I encourage you, if you've not been to the Crowd website before, go to www.crowd.church. It is a brand new, launched this week website. So I need an army of people to go to the website and tell, tell us everything that is wrong about that website. Any errors, any issues, let us know because we need to get those sorted out. We just need an army of testers. Um, but this, the new site is live, which is great. There's a few things we still need to, uh, do on it, but check it out, crowd.church. Um, if you are not a member of a church yet, we would love for you to think about joining Crowd. You'd be more than welcome here. We have communities, uh, in midweek if you'd like to join an online community group. I know for some people you want to build that community fellowship online. You'd be more than welcome to join us. In just a few seconds, we are going to go to Live Lounge. So are you going to put the thing in the comments? So it's going to put the link in the comments, uh, for Live Lounge, um, and we will see you in there. It is go.crowd.church meet. Um, and Sharon will be in there, Anna will be in there, we'll be in there just only for like 5 or 10 minutes. There's only— and it's not like thousands of people come into Live Lounge, by the way. Um, a handful of people come in. Come and say hello to everyone if you would like to. Um, come and say, how's it? Uh, but yeah, go visit crowd.church. Next week we have Ade speaking. Um, Dan is hosting. I want to say Mike Harris is hosting. Uh, and, and you're not hosting that much.

Anna: I do not hosting now. No, no, that's it.

Matt: You're done for the year.

Anna: Um, not for the entire year, like, not if we're staying for the whole of 2026, but for the summer.

Matt: For the summer, yes, absolutely. Uh, by the way, we'll be at Wildfires. All three of us will be at Wildfires. So if you're going to be at the Wildfires, uh, conference— festival, that's a better word— if you're going to be at the Wildfires Festival this year, uh, do come find us, do come say hello. We would love to meet you in person. Um, but that's it from Sharon, from Anna, from myself. Have a wonderful week wherever you are in the world. Uh, we'll see you next week. God bless you. Bye for now.