(240) Is The Christian God Cruel? (Genesis Part 12) - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpsz5OHKeHY

Transcript: (00:38) Good evening and welcome to Crowd Church tonight. It's great to have you with us. I'm joined tonight by Jenny. Jenny, say hi to everyone. Good evening. Hi. It is lovely to be here this evening. It's good to uh Yeah, it's good to be back, isn't it? I haven't done this in a few weeks, have you? No, actually, I haven't. I've spoken a couple of times this term. (00:58) I haven't hosted, but it is absolutely great to be here. Yeah. How's your week been? Busy, actually. But, you know, we were talking about the faffy little things that you just have to do, like sort out life stuff like my mom's phone broke and I had to help her fix it. But that's all right. (01:17) It's It's good to be able to do that with family, isn't it? It is. It's not the most exciting thing, is it? But have you done anything more exciting than helped your mom with a broken phone? I mean, yeah. That's not that been the highlight of my week. Definitely not helping your mom with a broken phone. Um, no. I've had my parents staying this weekend though. (01:34) Um, so yeah, we've had grandparents coming see my little boy. Nice. Did you just go anywhere or do anything? Yeah, we went for a walk yesterday. We I also saw some uni friends who were briefly back in Liverpool. Um, so that was nice. Went out for brunch. Yeah, had a nice weekend. It's been good, but nothing hugely exciting to report. (01:52) But I suppose we should get on and talk a little bit about what we're doing tonight here as well because we could just chitchat, couldn't we, about our weekends, but I don't actually think anyone else cares too much. Um, Jenny, tell us what we're what's happening tonight. Do you know? Well, we have got Sharon, the wonderful Sharon, speaking to us this evening. (02:11) She's going to talk to us about Abraham and Isaac, I believe. That's cool. And so, it's continuation of our Genesis series, isn't it? Yeah. And it's just worth owning the fact that it's ever so slightly out of order. Um, it's not a mistake and it's not crowd's fault. (02:33) It's because my wonderful husband is speaking next week and that was the date that he could do, but it's slightly out of out of chronological order. If you're reading these stories, if you're reading these stories in the Bible chronologically, so in total there's four weeks I think on Abraham and they are slightly out of chronological order, but they're all looking at slightly different aspects or topics around his life. (02:52) So I reckon we can get away with it. I think we can live with that. It's not too big a problem, is it? So I can just hear Matt chitchatting in the back and I have no idea what he's saying, including my husband of causing chaos. But yeah, looking at different themes. So last week was covenant. I think this week we're looking at sacrifice. Next week we're looking at generosity. (03:10) And I'll be honest, off the top of my head, I can't remember what the fourth week is. I think something like faith over a lifetime or something like that. Um, so four weeks on Abraham, slightly different angles out of chronological order. Sorry everybody. But this week is Sharon and I'm sure she's going to be great. So is it time to pass over to her? Yeah, let's pass over to her. (03:28) And just to say um before we start like if you've got any thoughts or questions or comments as Sharon is sharing then do post them in the chat box and we will come back and do conversation straight at the end of her talk and have a bit of a discussion about it and Sharon will join us for that as well. But we'll pass over to Sharon. Hello. (03:56) Before I start, just in case you're wondering why we've got a lightsaber behind us, it's not actually a lightsaber. It's a cross which is all lit up, but you can just see the bottom. But anyway, the Bible, that's what we're here for. So, let's be honest. There are many difficult and puzzling parts of the Bible. And there are many parts that cause us to ask questions. (04:14) And the question we're going to look at today is, is the Christian God cruel? There are a couple of reasons for looking at this question. Firstly, we've the passage that we're going to look at today that if you've heard it before, it can kind of have that lullaby effect on you where it just sends you to sleep a little bit because you've heard it so many times. (04:34) But if you stop and think about the words, like if you like actual lullabibis, sometimes it can just make you go, "Wait, what? What is that one about?" or if you've never heard the story before and you come at it with fresh modern eyes, it can just make you kind of go, who is this God that the Christians worship? Who is this God that would ask someone to do that? Um in the past Christian or many people have asked um is Christianity true? And that's a really good and important question to ask. (05:04) But there's another question that people ask now as well and that is is the Christian God? Secondly, as well, um, sometimes people look at the God in the Old Testament, that's the part of the Bible written before Jesus was on the earth, uh, in human form, and they look at the God there and go, "That God just looks harsh and judgmental. (05:28) " And then they look at the part of the B, the New Testament, the part written after Jesus, and they say, "Oh, the God there looks really loving and kind, as if they're two separate people." But as Christians, we believe that they're one. and the same God and that God doesn't change. (05:48) Um Malachi uh 3:6 says, "I the Lord do not change." And Hebrews 13 verse8 says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." And as Christians, we believe that Jesus is part of the Trinity of God. So it's like God doesn't change. So how does this match up? So what is today's Bible reading? Let's read the first part. It says, "Sometime later, God tested Abraham. (06:16) He said to him,"Abraham, here I am, he replied. Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the region of Mariah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain. I will show you." So in the Bible, a burnt offering is um usually where a spotless animal was taken and sacrificed and the whole of the animal was burnt. (06:48) In some of the other sacrifices in the Bible, it wasn't the whole animal. It was just a part of it was burnt and the rest of it was eaten by the people who brought it or shared out in the community. But in a burnt offering, it was like the most costly because the whole value of the animal was surrendered up to God. (07:08) And it was meant to represent the purging that we need to undergo to be able to enter the presence of a holy God. It's a payment of a debt that we owe God for the state of our soul. Um, and if you haven't heard this story before, the the son Isaac mentioned in this story is not just any son because for years his father Abraham and his wife Sarah, they'd been desperate to have kids, but Sarah was barren. She couldn't have kids. (07:39) And God had made them a promise that they would have a child. And they waited and they waited and nothing happened. So they took matters into their own hands and Sarah said to Abraham, "Go and sleep with my maidervant, have a child through him and then that will become my child." And that might sound really crazy to us today, but actually that kind of thing still happens in the world today. (08:04) A few years ago, I met um an Asian woman who I became friends with and her and her husband hadn't been able to have children. And the custom where she was from was that if you couldn't have children, your brothers or sisters were obligated to give you a newborn child of their own, which I just thought this is, oh, just imagine having to do that. (08:27) So basically, she and her husband had two kids which were not biologically theirs, but they were provided for from the rest of the family. So um yeah, and it does sound crazy to us in the West, doesn't it? And with um Sarah telling Abraham to do that, it did cause loads of additional problems. But God kept his promise. (08:54) And many years later, when things looked even more dire, God gave them a son, he gave Sarah the ability to get pregnant and have this son Isaac. So when God says, "Sacrifice your son." It would be I mean can you imagine to sacrifice any child would be such a hard thing to do but when you've waited and waited and waited I mean promise this son how much more does that just add to the depth and the anguish of that? So what do you find disturbing about these verses? What's shocking to you? I think perhaps the fact that God would ask someone to sacrifice their child, which leads me to the question I started with, is God just (09:35) cruel? But what if I told you that given the culture of the day, this was probably not the shocking part of this whole story to Abraham. Because in that culture and all the cultures around him, it was normal for people to think that the gods wanted them to sacrifice their children. It was just the done thing. (09:58) And they did it to prove their devotion to their gods and to try and get their favor. And just as we saw last week, how God used the normal cultural practice of covenant to show Abraham just how serious he was about what he was promising. (10:25) This week we see how God's using a different cultural practice of the time to give Abraham a test to give him a deep learning experience and also to add another layer of preparation to his future plans. So, what was the test? Um, weeks ago, we looked at the beginning of Genesis, and there was the story of Adam and Eve. I'll just read a little bit of it. Um, the Lord God took the man, Adam, and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. (10:49) And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. For when you eat from it, you will certainly die." So for Adam and Eve, the test was are they going to believe that God is good and um to do what God says and to believe that what he's saying there's a good reason for it or are they going to do their own thing and ignore what God said? And we saw how they completely failed that test. So Abraham has got the same test. Would he believe that God is good and (11:24) trust what he's saying um even though he didn't understand it? So, how did Abraham do in his test? We'll read on the next bit. So, it says, "Early the next morning, Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. (11:48) On the third day, Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. we will worship and then we will come back to you. Um I think it's is it this bit but it was saying um I'm not sure if I've missed it actually. (12:09) Oh yeah, it said on the So they took the basically took them third three days to get to this place but it wasn't a three-day journey. And I can just imagine like, can you imagine the emotion that he must have been going through and how hard that was? And I just sort of imagine him dragging his feet like trying to trying to be obedient but at the same time like not wanting to do this thing. (12:34) But anyway, as far as the test is concerned, so far he's doing pretty good job. He's making preparations to do what God's told him to do. And notice that it's God who's telling him what place to go to. And this place is really significant in Bible terms, and I'll come back to that later. Um, and we don't know um whether Abraham told his servants that they would both come back because he actually believed that or whether he was just lying just to get them off their trail. So then Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac. And he himself carried the (13:07) fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father, yes, my son." Isaac said, "But where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together. (13:33) When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar on top of the wood. Now, sometimes the Bible uses one sentence that covers like decades. Here it's using lots of sentences to like gradually build the tension in the story of like what's he going to do? Um, and there's something interesting about Isaac that we often kind of miss. In Jewish tradition, he was probably about 25 years old. (14:02) I think I always used to imagine him as like this little baby that you could just pick up and plon on the altar, but he was strong enough and big enough to be carrying the own his the wood for the sacrifice. And so he was probably strong enough to overpower Abraham, which suggests perhaps he was actually a willing participant in this whole scenario. (14:28) See, it leaves so many questions, doesn't it? So what happens next? Then he reached out his hand, this is Abraham, and took the knife to slay his son. Again, can you imagine that? But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven. Abraham, Abraham, here I am, he replied. Do not lay a hand on the boy, he said. Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God because you've not withheld from me your son, your only son. So Abraham passed the test. (15:00) He trusted that God would keep his promise even though what God was asking him to do came at a very high cost. Hebrews 11 says this. By faith Abraham when God tested him offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son even though God had said to him it's through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. (15:33) And the Christian faith actually is a call to surrender all parts of our life to God. It's not just like a oh I'll add Christianity on the side of my life and to live so I can live my best life here and get a free pass to heaven. That's not what it's about at all. It means trusting what God says about who we are, about money, about um sex and relationships, about singleness, about family. (15:59) And um usually when I speak, I like to give lots of personal examples or like examples from different people on how this works out. I've got so much I want to get through today that I'm hoping that we can pick up on that side of things in conversation street afterwards. Just a little note to our two hosts. Um, yeah. So, let's continue reading. (16:23) Abraham looked up and there in a thick he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place, the Lord will provide. And to this day it said, on the mountain of the Lord it will be provided. (16:44) The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring, all nations on earth will be blessed because you've obeyed me. (17:13) " Then Abraham returned to his servants and they set off together for Beersa and Abraham stayed in Beersa. So just as Abraham is about to kill his son, God steps in and intervenes. He's the one who provides the sacrifice in the place of Isaac. He makes the switch and he adds to the previous promise that he had given to Abraham for descendants and land and promises that um all the nations of the earth will be blessed through Abraham's descendants. (17:50) So I've said before this was a test a learning experience and also setting the scene for the future. So I've already talked about the test. So let's talk about the learning experience. So one of the things that God taught Abraham through this was that he is not like the other gods that people worshiped. So other gods required child sacrifice. But the God of Abraham here detests child sacrifice. (18:15) And there are loads of verses in the Bible that come later on that talk about this. It's like each person is made in God's image and each person is precious from the the youngest child to the oldest person. Leviticus says um keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you and do not defile yourselves with them. (18:41) I am the Lord your God. So God's wanting to set up a kingdom on earth where we he works in partnership with us but with his um his kingdom rules which are all based on love and um I work with people from lots of different cultures which is fabulous because I get a little glimpse into all these different cultures from around the world and I've come to the conclusion that in every culture there are some things that are fantastic and really good and very godly and there are things which are really ungodly and not One of the things I like about many of the cultures I come into contact with is (19:16) the whole thing of hospitality. And I've definitely benefited from this and from all the lovely food that different people cook. So that's great. But God is showing that his ways are different to the culture around us. And part of following him is actually letting him transform our culture, not us um transforming to the culture around us. (19:40) And again, it'll be good to try and pick up on this in conversation street and if you're watching online um and you've got examples of where either where you've had to um surrender areas of your life which you found quite tricky or where the culture around you was just um where you felt God really challenged you actually this is not my culture and where you've had to go against the culture and live differently. (20:10) If you've got any of those examples, please put them in. Tim Keller um said, "Contemporary people tend to examine it the Bible looking for things they can't accept, but Christians should reverse that, allowing the Bible to examine us, looking for things that God can't accept." So to live in relationship with God means that we're not to conform to ungodly practices that our culture practices but to let God transform them. (20:44) So I've sort said this is a learning experience and you might ask couldn't God have given Abraham an easier way to learn this rather than make him go through all that emotion of I've got to sacrifice my son and then coming in at the last minute. (21:01) Couldn't he have just like talked to him and gone, Abraham, I want you to know points A, B, and C about me? Maybe he could. And I think sometimes in the West, we tend to learn from that kind of logic. U we work through point by point and we come to our main thing at the end. But that's not really um a a Hebrew way of learning. And I'm not even sure it's the best way of learning. (21:25) How much deeper is our learning experience when we get to feel all the feels and really understand the depth of what's going on and then being given the answer to that issue. I know in my own life the stuff that I' that I really know deep deep down is where I've had to walk through I've had to walk through all that emotion and then God's brought in the answer. Um, and it's really transformative and God had a massive role for Abraham to play in history. (21:54) And I think he he just needed him to get it deep down, not just on a head level. Um, anyway, so so I've talked about one learning experience that God's ways are different to the culture or can be different to the culture around us, but there's something else to learn here. (22:17) And we don't necessarily pick out this from the way um again from because I've just said that we tend to be quite logical in terms of we go from point A to point B to point C and then we get our main point at the end. But the structure of this and um it it kind of shows you what the main point of this is. And scholars refer to the structure of this passage as a kayazm. (22:43) And this particular kayazm, if you imagine, it's like, I know Abraham literally did walk up a mountain, but in literary terms, it's like walking up a literary uh literary mountain where you start at point A, you go up to the summit, and the summit or the middle of the story is actually the main point, and then you go down the other side of the mountain. (23:09) Um, and the middle of the the story here, it's not about um Abraham, it's about the sacrifice. It's about God switching out. It's about God providing. Um, yeah, there's so much more I could say on this whole thing. It it brings out so many things when you understand the structure. So that brings me on to the uh preparation for God's future plan. So I've talked about uh the test learning experience and then now we're looking at how God's layering up his plans for the future. (23:47) So I said before that the location of this story is really crucial because it was God that told Abraham to go to this particular place to make the sacrifice. And then later in history, we see how um King David had done something that God told him not to do and it resulted in a plague coming on all the people. And God told him to stop this plague. You need to go to a place where I'm going to tell you and you need to make a sacrifice there. (24:12) And the sacrifice will be like paying for the sins so that the um the plague can stop. And the place is the same place. It's the same mountain and at this point it was owned by um somebody else and it was a threshing floor for threshing out the grain. So David actually went and bought this patch of land and he built an altar there and he sacrificed and the plague stopped. (24:47) Later in history, we've then got um David's son Solomon who built um a temple on the same patch of ground. And in the temple was the altar where the sacrifices was sent up to God. Um as a reminder of to be able to come close to God, we need to be purged of our sin of where we've missed it. Um and it's like this animal takes our place. (25:12) Um 2 Chronicles says, "Then Solomon began to build the temple of the Lord in Jerusalem on Mount Mariah where the Lord had appeared to his father David. It was on the threshing floor of Arana, the Jebusite, the place provided by David. And all these sacrifices, all these altars were pointing forward in the history to a greater sacrifice. They were showing us our need to be able to come close to God because God's so holy. (25:37) Actually, we need to deal with our hearts. And that's not any that's not um you can't just it's not a cheap way of doing it. Actually, it involves sacrifice. And this same place in the same area uh but this time just slightly outside the city walls was where Jesus then came and died as the ultimate sacrifice. (26:00) It was like he was um that lamb when Isaac was saying where is the lamb which is the central part of this story. The answer is looking forward the answer is the lamb is Jesus. It's God coming himself to pay that sacrifice. And unlike Isaac who was spared, Jesus died. Unlike Abra Abraham who kept his son, God gave his son. (26:29) This is like a stunning reversal at the heart of the gospel, the heart of the good news of the Bible. What God prevented Abraham from doing, he himself did for us. Um John 3:16 said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son." The greatest test became the greatest gift. (26:59) So to return to our question, is God cruel? A superficial glance at this passage would suggest that is the case. But once you take a deeper dive into it, it's actually the complete opposite that is true. God is after relationship. And unlike the supposed gods of the ancient world who just expect us to make all the sacrifice and like look after all their whims or whatever, here it's God coming down to make the sacrifice on our behalf. This is like really amazing. (27:31) So I suggest when we come to any of the other tricky passages in the Bible, of which there are many, let us be people who take the time to actually dig in. Let's look at what is the what is the surrounding culture. Let's take time to investigate what is this passage actually saying and to really understand. (27:51) And if you are someone who likes to study and dig a bit deeper, I can recommend the Bible project. Uh they've got a website and a podcast and also Beamer podcast. It goes into loads more of this like background stuff. And seriously, as I was um just like diving into all of this, it just became richer and richer and just like more like this is amazing as you just understand the depth. Anyway, that is that from me. (28:20) So hopefully we can pick up on some of those points now in conversation street. Amazing. There was like so much in that um from Sharon. Thank you so much for sharing that, Sharon. I found I learned loads in that. I don't know about you, Jenny. What did you What did you think? Yeah, absolutely. I learned loads. Um and I think I mean starting where Sharon ended off the value of the fact that sometimes there's some bits of scripture you can just read and be like, "Oh, the meaning of that is really relatively obvious." And sometimes you it's really worth digging. (28:56) I think what's really interesting about this story, I mean, it's one that like a lot of Old Testament stories, it you have to think about it a bit and really take the time to study it to understand the cultural context. And you know, like you said, Sharon, at first glance, it can seem like that's just a really horrible story. (29:14) Like, why would God ask that? And then you look at all the layers of meaning and the cultural context of how other gods regularly asked for child sacrifice, but God was saying, "No, I'll make another way." Um, it's just mind-blowing because like you say, at first glance it can be like, "Well, that just seems like a really horrible thing for God to do." But it's because it's so far out of our cultural context now. (29:39) But that for me that was just really illuminating and and really helped me to remember again the kind of context of of that story and actually how it was sort of foreshadowing what Jesus was going to do for us as well. Really helpful. (29:58) One of the things I find quite interesting about this as well is that in some senses this story is easy enough for a child to understand. a child can get this. But I think it's like um and Jesus said that he um wants us to come to him like little children. You know, little children trust, don't they? And I think that is important. But when we become older and we start asking more questions, which again I think is valid to do, it's like you can I think you can be like the most intelligent person and dive into it. (30:28) You like the history or the language and all the and keep keep getting further in and keep learning more. So, it works for a child, but it also works for the most intelligent um people as well, which I find quite interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's absolutely one of the beauties of scripture, I think, and the more I've got into studying scripture, the more I've been like, yeah, it's simple to understand on one level, and yet you can't understand it in a lifetime on another level, which is amazing. Yeah. (30:56) Shall we jump into some of those other points that Sharon flagged up or some of the questions that we've got? Yeah. I mean, where to begin really? I I thought one of the really interesting points you raised quite early on was that whole idea of the story being about surrender at the core and surrendering sort of our control, trusting God, all of those kind of key themes. (31:22) Um, and one of the questions that came up was, are there any areas God has asked you to surrender in your life? So, I know I'm looking at both of you now, but like have you guys got any um thoughts or any examples, practical ones that might be examples of maybe an obviously maybe not literally surrendering a child, but another area of life where maybe God's asked you to surrender. I don't know. (31:47) Either of you got anything? Um yeah, I think a big one for me has been well before I was married. um different like romantic relationships and I think that can be a I think my husband's shouting in the background there um ignore him. I think it is a big area generally because there's so much emotion attached to this. Um but I remember um there was one guy that I went out with who I just really loved and he was a good guy also a Christian so we were matched like faith-wise but I got to this point where I just sensed that God was saying to me it was just it wasn't like any audible voices or anything. I just had this really strong sense inside of God (32:26) saying, um, if you continue with this relationship, actually, this is not my plan for you. And I was like I was so gutted and I was like I I just knew that this wasn't the right relationship. And I had to give it up. I didn't want to because I really liked it. And it took me quite a long time of like battling until I got to that point of surrender and going, "Okay, God, I'm just going to trust that you know what you're talking about on this. (32:54) " Um, and as it happened, by the time I'd got to that point, because it did take me a while, um, he actually ended up breaking it off with me. So, it made it easy in a sense, but I think it even more than that, I think it was about my heart response to, am I going to be willing to trust God in this area? And it's worked out, you know, pretty good, especially for Matt. Yeah, he's shouting in the background again. (33:21) So, what about you? Um, yeah, I think I I've had similar examples in relationships. I think God's also asked me to surrender job roles, career opportunities at certain times where seemed like the right thing. Um, but maybe God had something else planned a bit further down the road that I couldn't see at that time. (33:44) So, yeah, I think I've I've seen it happen a number of times in work situations, in relationships before I got married. Yeah. And I think often at the time it can be like God why are you asking me to let go of this thing that seems good but actually it's because he has a different plan or a better plan or a better match for you bit further down the road but there's an element of trust. (34:03) Um there was a few actual questions that came up on that theme around why does God test us or why does he ask us for that kind of surrender of sacrifice like it I don't know that that's an interesting point isn't it like what's God after in like testing our faith any thoughts on that one I'm looking at Sharon she's done all the study here but Jen you chip in too if you've got some Well I think it's interesting isn't it seeing the parallel with um the test that Adam and Eve faced And that sense that actually, yeah, there's a testing element, but there's also like a learning experience for them element. (34:37) Like when I was chatting about Adam and Eve, I was talking about how God wants us to learn how to trust him. And we do have to walk that out. It's not something that just happens overnight. And I think in these things, that's part that's one element of what God is doing. (34:56) He's teaching us a whole ton of stuff about himself, about hearing his voice, about what it looks like to walk with him. So, in some respects, test in the English language is probably not the greatest word because it's not like pass or fail. It's almost like having driving lessons as opposed to doing your driving test. It's part of learning how to do that walk with God. (35:16) I don't know what if anyone else got another perspective on that. Oh, so I was just trying to remember the question again. Why would God test us? Um, I don't know. I think in in any area of life if you you can think that you know something until you actually have to put it into practice. And when you put it into practice, you actually find out whether or not you do. And I think it's that kind of element. (35:40) There's more more depth to when you actually have to practice something, walk it out than if it's just like this little head knowledge thing. So I think it's a lot to do with depth and to do with character and relationship. Yeah, definitely. I think um there was two kind of key themes that you kept coming back to that I found really fascinating which was like those kind of overriding questions like is God true and is he good and I think this story really looks at both those questions isn't it I mean in a sense that is God real is he true that's easy one to kind (36:15) of square off but is God good and has he got good plans for our lives that I think that's something that even when you been a Christian a long time, like us three have. It's quite I feel like I'm always coming back to that. (36:34) Do I really believe that God is good? And this this sort of passage really looks at that, doesn't it? It really explores that whole dynamic. I thought you brought that alive really well in that kind of like do we trust that God's working for good even when what he's asking seems like it's not good initially, but actually he's showing his goodness in the story. Um, I think that kind of blows my mind a bit. Yeah. (36:59) I think sometimes we can think that if God is good, then that means that everything in our life should be good. But the reality is that we live in a broken world. And for now, everything in life is not going to be good. And I' I've been meditating on Psalm 23 recently, which I think even if you've not got a faith, you might have heard where it's talking about the Lord is my shepherd. (37:17) I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. And it talks about even though I go through the valley of the shadow of death, I'll fear no evil. So it's like the Christian faith is not about come to God and everything will be fabulous. (37:37) It's actually about God's presence and that when we go through those times that we do them with him. And I think some of the most precious times for me have actually been when I've been at rock bottom and really struggling and then God's presence has come in and it's like actually yeah his presence more has more than made up for that although it's still been hard at the time. (38:03) Um yes it's there's not necessarily an easy answer to that. Yeah. But as someone's put in the comments here that I think is really interesting. Um like God I think God tests our faith not because he needs to discover what's inside of our hearts because he obviously already knows being God, right? Um but that it's important for us to realize what's in our heart. (38:28) And um somebody said tests reveal what's inside us, don't they? Like putting pressure on a tube of toothpaste, whatever's inside comes out. And and I think there is an element of that that actually reveals our hearts to us. Yeah. Really good thoughts. Yeah. And you can work on it when you know what's actually deep down when the pressure is on. Absolutely. And we're quite good at fooling ourselves, I think. Yeah. (38:48) Let alone try to fool those around us. So yeah, no, that's a a really Yeah, I like that. Interesting point. Very helpful. Thank you, whoever wrote that. Yeah. And also another comment here that I think just to add to that point which says I think tests aren't meant to make us fail but or to strengthen us like a muscle grows stronger under resistance and pressure. And I think that's a really good point. He's not doing it to try like God's not trying to trip us up with us. (39:14) He's trying to build our resilience and prepare us for what's ahead in life. I think and he draws near to us with his goodness, doesn't he? In all kinds of ways, like you say, in a really difficult situation that doesn't become better. God can reveal his goodness, you know, and even in that situation, he reveals the fact that actually he's not after child sacrifice. (39:38) He reveals his incredible provision by providing the right sacrifice there. It's a point to the incredible sacrifice of Jesus, which is obviously his amazing provision. Like there's so much of God's goodness he can reveal to us even in really difficult situations. Yeah. I mean going back to that that sort of whole point of is God good that sort of comes out in this story and like or is he doing some is he really evil and mean and he's you know kind of taking this child towards sacrifice. (40:06) Um, it's interesting because another comment that's here is critics like uh Richard Dawkins have pointed to the story as evidence that religion promotes blind obedience and it can be harmful. And um like yeah, this kind of misses the point though that um crucially the point isn't that God wants child sacrifice. It's that he doesn't. (40:27) And that's yeah the you know that's the bit that's like missed that unlike false gods of that time God's wanting something different he's wanting he's wanting our hearts not child sacrifice or any animal sacrifice or anything else necessarily and I love the way this story takes something that actually is very common and completely turns it on its head to go no that is not good. (40:56) Yeah, that's so often the case with the Bible though, isn't it? That it kind of takes the culture of the time and then subverts it and turns it like the upside down kingdom. God turns it upside down and what you think it's like God's ways are not our ways and they're so much higher. Yeah. I think it's interesting what you were saying as well about there's so many different cultures. (41:15) We all live in you know a cultural moment and there were wonderful things about different cultures like you mentioned the number of people you come into contact with are so hospitable but it's an interesting question to be asking as we walk as Christians isn't it what God actually about the culture that I'm in is fine it's great and what where am I called to be countercultural because you get that same call in the New Testament as well don't you that actually sometimes there's things in our culture like the child sacrifice in this culture that God is saying no we're going to do (41:45) things differently. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I I feel like as well that kind of the way that that because I I'd kind of like understood that before, but the way that you kind of paralleled that to it almost being prophetic of what Jesus then goes on to do in terms of becoming a sacrifice for us like that. Yeah. (42:09) I hadn't really seen that clear link before. And I think that's that's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, I love the way that in the Bible you've got um yeah, you've got the whole ancient culture thing, you've got language, you've got geography, you've got history, and they kind of all pull together to tell this much bigger narrative that we're all part of as well. And I I just love that it's not just like um Oh, sorry. (42:40) It's not like a black and white picture. It's such a richly colored picture that you can just dig in forever and keep learning and like um God sometimes calls us um you know like in the story it's like the way God works is often quite counterculture. it's like out of its time. (43:05) Like God's bigger and yeah, I that was something else I was thinking about like faith's not a bolt-on but sometimes cost us everything. And like that whole thing of God calling us to be counterculture in certain ways. Is there any examples that either of you have got of that in your lives where it's like it's slightly different surrender, isn't it? But where God's asked you to do something that's perhaps counterculture or called you in something that's not the norm of our our culture. I don't know. (43:31) It's a tricky one, but I mean I feel like I'm living that out a little bit as a parent at the moment in terms of like where values around maybe how much money I might think is I don't know it's a hard one, isn't it? But I think there are some things in culture that you can look at and be like that's not fundamentally wrong, but is there something at the root of that that isn't great? Like um I guess what I'm thinking as a parent is how we can often like try and prove our status in our clothes and you know my I've got kids who are like oh I need all this stuff. I need all this stuff to prove my worth. Mom, can I get the next thing? I need to keep up with (44:07) everybody all the time. And that kind of message of actually your worth is in Jesus. That's who made you. And yeah, you can have some nice stuff. I don't have a problem with you having some nice stuff. But let's make sure we're having a conversation about what's the actual message that's going on here. (44:27) Your value is not in the brand of clothing that you're wearing or the brand of shoes or the games console you've got, the phone or any of that. It's in something that's much deeper and much more significant. I thought that's something I'm trying to wrestle with with my kids right now. I don't know if anyone's got any other thoughts. I mean, no, but that is a really good example because I think like that's so countercultural actually in a society that's all about consumption. We're all about consumerism. (44:51) We live in a incredibly materialistic world, don't we? probably the most materialistic size society that's ever been so far. Um, we're just, you know, the rate at which we consume and buy and yeah, just want more stuff that we don't really need. I think to say this much no more is incredibly countercultural in our cultural moment actually. Yeah. About you Sharon, have you got any thoughts? I think there's probably loads. (45:19) The one that comes to mind more I think is the way we try and live more in community. So we've got people obviously family that live in our house and what since we were in our first year of marriage we've always had people to live with us and I'm not suggesting that everybody should be doing this at all. (45:36) Um, so we've had people that live with us and even after some have moved out, they've stayed connected with us as and now really like family and there's so many people now that just turn up at our house, let themselves in, help themselves from our fridge and all that kind of stuff that it's just the normal way of living. And um, that was really modeled to us by the founding pastors of our church and their wives. So we just watched them and it was just like, oh, this is just normal to do. (46:01) And um I think it sort of hits home to me that it's not normal when our kids have been to schools and people say what's a lodger and just look at them and go well that's really weird that you have all these people that are connected to your house and just turn up. So but I can't say that this is a hardship one. I think some sometimes when God asks us to do things they're quite difficult. (46:22) I think this one actually we just really enjoy it. So but I think you guys have wor that out. I mean, I can't remember how long you've been married, but a long time. And like, when I think of that, when you tell me how many people these guys have got who've got a key to their front door who could just come and get something out of their fridge, like if we're talking about sacrifice, the sacrifice of your personal space, and I know you guys have boundaries around that, but still the sacrifice of the stuff you spent your money on that's in your fridge and in your cupboard, like I think that's something you've learned to walk out. (46:49) But if because I have done that at phases in my life, but haven't for the last kind of good seven or eight years. and the thought of going back to it now for me right now would definitely be in the in the sacrifice category of actually sharing stuff with people in that way and actually you know what strike really strikes me about that hearing you both talk is that for Sharon she's like well it's not a hardship like I actually quite love living this way I've learned to do it it's it's a good thing and I think you guys are amazing at that but that is like not something I (47:20) would find very easy as well like I like I like hanging out with people, but I also love my own space to retreat to sometimes. And yeah, I would find just giving people my I mean, my neighbors have a key, but like just giving our key and being like, "Help yourself to whatever. (47:38) " And then getting home and being like, "Oh, no, there's no milk in the fridge cuz everyone else has used it." Like that would be hard for me. And I and I think sometimes I think God gives us the grace to do what he's calling us to, though. So for you that's easy, but for like me and Jen here, we're like that would be really hard for us. (47:55) But then there's probably other things that we walk out because that's what God's as asked of us. And I guess that's the thing like actually when it's about Yeah. when it's about like kind of doing what God's called you to do or asked of you, it actually can become a real joy and there's like yes, there's a learning, there's testing, but actually when you walk out in what God's asking you to do in your life, it's not that hard because he's making a way for you to do it. Yeah. (48:23) That was why I was saying don't necessarily say that's what everyone should be doing because it is very much like what is God saying for you to do and living that out, isn't it? It's like stay in your lane and don't try and don't try and be like someone that actually you're not meant to be like. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, obviously time is ticking on, but any other final thoughts from either of you? Anything else that kind of jumps out, Jen or or Sharon? Any last points? I'm not sure how important this is, but it's just something I found fascinating. (48:52) That whole when I talked about the kayazm and the the structure of the thingy um the passage, it's like at the beginning, the beginning of the passage mirrors the end and the next step in mirrors the next step back in. So you've got like um for example, you've got Isaac carrying the wood up and then the opposite end you've got Isaac being laying on the wood and there's loads of parallels like that which all lead you to the center point. It's just fascinating if you go into it. (49:24) Well, I think it is anyway. Anyway, and also like loads of when you parallel it to like Jesus like Jesus as you literally as you said that I thought oh Jesus carried the wood to his own sacrifice on the cross as well like the parallels when you actually start looking into the Bible just blown my head. (49:43) You can see the God breathed part of it in all of that. I think you know. Yeah. And there's loads of parallels to the section before which is about um Hagar and her son and you can kind of do that same thing as well. It's just like this is so amazingly written. (50:01) I think the other thing that just jumps out to me linked to that is that someone said to me a while ago that God can't speak into a vacuum. Like the B it wouldn't have been possible for God to have written the Bible in a way that there were no cultural analogies and it would have spoken to any person in any time. So I think sometimes when we're wrestling with these things and we're like why did God put that story in? It is worth remembering that yeah it's God breathed. Yeah, it's timeless, but it was also written, I don't know, 3,000 years ago or however long it was. And God's had to speak into that culture in (50:25) a way that that culture understood first and foremost. And then when you unpack that, you're like, "Wow, this is so beautiful. This is amazing. Look at all the amazing messages that God is." There's just such a richness to it when you see it through that cultural lens. (50:43) And actually, there isn't really a way that God could have written it any differently really. Yeah. Yeah. It's go. It's the thing that just jumps out to me with all of this is that God is just so in the detail. Nothing's like chance is it in the Bible. Like it can be quite a difficult text to understand at first, but when you start to unpack it and read up on it, you're like, "Wow, just the detail and the richness of the story is just incredible. (51:08) " Um, yeah, we could talk all night on this, but we are going to have to draw things to a close in a minute. But just to say that if you've enjoyed tonight's talk, if you want to keep chatting, then there's going to be a link in the group chat. (51:25) Um, you can come and meet us afterwards and keep talking uh bring your questions. You can also get in touch with us through the week um on the crowd website, which the information should be coming up on the screen in a minute. Um yeah, we're always really keen to hear people's questions, chat to you through the week, answer your questions, um pray for you. (51:46) If you've got any prayer requests, then please just do get in touch and our team will definitely do that. Um before we go though, anyone tell us what's happening next week? Do you know? I I do because it's my husband and last time I was asked this question and it was my husband, I'd forgotten, but this time I know it's my husband, Jack. He's still on Abraham. (52:04) We're talking about generosity. Okay. So, that'll be next week. Um yeah, so I think with that we will say goodbye. Um thank you so much for joining us tonight on crowd and yeah, join us in the the chat afterwards if you want to come. See you later guys. Goodbye. [Music] [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music]