What does the Bible say about poverty and wealth?

What does the Bible say about Poverty And Wealth_ Matt: [00:00:00] Uh, the live stream was interrupted during our rather pretty countdown time at there. Uh, so for that there, but we're here. My name's Matt, Phil, how, hello? You doing alright Phil: bud? Yes. Excellent. There seems to be some sort of technical shenanigan, which is great because I work best when there's a little bit of chaos. Um, and in fact it's an environment in which I feel most at home. Uh, as you know, Matt, I'm not technically gifted. So to see people like yourself and the young Mr. Barrington here who are technical experts go, I think we've got a wire that we need to plug in is actually quite, I hope your Facebook stream or wherever you're watching is working. Matt: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, where wherever you are joining us from, uh, it's great that you are here. Thank you for joining us. Uh, we sure do appreciate it, uh, today. Yeah. Apart from the technical glitches, uh, make sure you say hi in the comments. I just need to get my comments up on the screen. Actually. How do I [00:01:00] do that? I'm just gonna do this. Uh, if you are, if you are joining us in the comments, it's great that you are here. Do come and say hello. Hopefully you can see us. Hopefully you can, uh, see what's going on. In fact, I should probably just check that the worldwide web can see us. Uh, is what I'm gonna do. Phil ad lib for 20 seconds. Will I check? Phil: Well, hello everybody and welcome to, uh, Liverpool. Uh, clocks went forward today and it hasn't rained for about 36 hours, so we've all become giddy with excitement. Lots of people run around. In short. And the park has been ram full of people. And I'd imagine tomorrow at work, most of Liverpool will have gone, would've got some sort of horrendous sunburn because we are all, well, basically we're just not used to good weather. It's also been something called mothering Sunday or Mother's Day. Uh, it's only taken me two minutes to mention the fact that in my family we have birth kids. Foster kids adopted kids, and so mothering son, they can be a, a bit of a shenanigan for some people who haven't been able to have children. It's tricky for some people who don't [00:02:00] necessarily live with their mom. It could be tricky, but wherever you are and if you do celebrate such a thing, I hope you had a wonderful day. One of my kids took mom, uh, mom, my wife out for, for tea, no lunch at her, his favorite cafe just off, uh, the park near Nice. Video: Another one bought, um, uh, mom, four Phil: pork pies and two scotch eggs. But he eat, he did eat, he ate them. He, he ate them basically before. Before, um, she got them, but the, she found the, found the packaging. So that was all very well received. Um, one I asked him this morning, he's, what is the hell is he 14? Do you wanna make mum breakfast in bread bed? All we got was the teenage, uh, that we knocked out on the head pretty quickly. Uh, but Video: yeah, Phil: about, since Anne has said Happy Mother's Day and the other child who is 20, I think she's coming round later for, for Sunday evening dinner. Quite how she gets to come to our house to eat our dinner [00:03:00] for my wife's mothering. I don't know, but nevermind. Um, somehow we have found a way where most of us are happy most of the time. I can keep ad-libbing, uh, but I, Matt: no, no, that's good. That's good. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, for some reason we, uh, our feed is coming through as a, as a, as a supplement. Uh, the title is, is a supplement thing, which I'm just radical rapidly trying to Okay. To sort out. Uh, we're not here selling supplements. Uh, they, you'd be pleased to know. Today we are talking about what does the Bible say about wealth and, uh, not supplements. Uh, and we've got John Sloan, I forgot his surname for a second there. John Sloan is talking to us about what does the bible say about health, uh, in this week's live stream. Um, and so he's gonna be on screen in a minute, uh, to talk about that. We've got Prayer for Ukraine, we've got worship. And then Phil, hopefully you and I are gonna have some kind of [00:04:00] semis sensible conversation later. Phil: I'm sure we can achieve that. Um, 'cause I, I don't even say, I dunno, people have watched this all over the place, aren't they? You were telling me earlier about people watch. From different parts of the world. Um, the world, the, the global economy does exist, doesn't it? So what happens in one part of the world doesn't seem to impact the rest. Yeah, and I know in the UK in the last week, we have had something called a budget statement. And yesterday, the Watsons, that's my family, we got the email from our energy company telling us quite how much they're Matt: dreaded. Phil: And there has never been, I mean, I know every society and culture will talk about wealth, but there's, you know, it, it is whoever you are, wherever you're watching, you will have financial concerns, I'm sure. Um, and I know that where, yeah, wherever you are in the world, you're not immune to energy and gas prices going up and down. Things like inflation, things like, um, the cost of borrowing. So whether you've got a mortgage or whether you've got, uh, rent, all these things will impact you. And, [00:05:00] um, the Bible, uh, says an awful lot about how we manage our wealth, how we look at our wealth, how, um, yeah. Well. Pop poverty as well is another part of that. I don't wanna steal too much or any of Mr. Sloan doctors. He's a doctor's name. Dr. Sloan. He is Matt: Dr. Sloan's conversation. And actually his talk is very good. I, um, I'm a, I I, I've, I listened to it already and I thought, wow, this is fantastic. I'll tell you what, let's do this. Let's get John's talk on now. Um, you can hear what John's got to say. Uh, then we're gonna, like I say, have the profu can, uh, worship, which Phil's gonna come and introduce. Then we'll have Conversation Street where Phil and I will chat through your comments, your thoughts, and all your ideas, uh, about what is going on. So, uh, thank you for bearing with us during the technical storm. I think we're all fixed now. So, John, if you wanna roll, VT always wanted to say that, Phil. Yeah.[00:06:00] John: Hello, uh, my name is John Sloan. Um, and together with Mara, [00:07:00] my wife, we lead, uh, Frontline world, uh, which is a complete privilege for us to do. Um, today I want to take part in the series. What does the Bible say about, and the topic, uh, I've been asked to address is what does the Bible say about poverty and wealth? Now, in terms of context, um, we should, uh, recognize that stopping to look in detail about a particular topic which we're doing today, uh, is often really helpful. Um, we live fast moving lives and we tend to be superficial on things. Um, but Jesus mostly taught on topics, um, really, um, challenging people's thinking. And it's relevant to note that he spoke about money a lot. In fact, he taught on money, uh, in, uh, 11 of his [00:08:00] 39 parables. That's over 25%. Uh, money is Jesus' most talked about topic. Um, perhaps his most telling comment is that we cannot serve God, uh, and money. Uh, he used the word mammon in, uh, Matthew 6 24. No man can serve two masters, said Jesus, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon he said. Mammon was a biblical term for riches, often used to describe the debasing influence of material wealth. It seems to be derived from the Aramaic, uh, um, word mammon, and the word is rendered mamon in Greek and mamon in Latin, in English, mammon persisted as a word in other literature. Uh, although he is probably dying out now. And in fact, most modern, uh, Bibles [00:09:00] variously use the word wealth, riches or gain, but they don't convey the negative context that mammon is meant to convey. Mammon is when, uh, wealth, riches or gain become your guard, and as such, it's a slippery slope. The second, uh, introductory question I want to ask, um, is, um, whose lens are you looking through when you look at, uh, poverty and wealth? Uh, what judgments do we bring to this question? See, there's a lot of evidence that we form our judgments emotionally because of our background or because of things that have happened to us. Psychologists talk about moral intuition. In other words, having made an emotional judgment on a topic, our moral reasoning simply serves as a rationalization of already formed prejudices. Uh, [00:10:00] what, what I saying? Um, well, let me describe it better. It it, in fact, it appears that our beliefs are rarely based, initially, at least on a deep understanding of a particular issue. When it comes to belief, it seems, we remember facts that support our innate natural worldview, but ignore or reject information that runs counter to our opinions. We see it a lot in politics, I suppose, and the more passionately we feel about an issue, this is more so, and justice and fairness rank pretty high in many people's minds, so they may well impinge on a subject such as this. But don't forget, father God says, my thoughts are not your thoughts. Neither are your ways. My ways as the heavens are higher than the earth. So are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your [00:11:00] thoughts. That's Isaiah 55, 8 and nine, and he sets out his heart in scripture, and I want to look at some of those scriptures today. I I we're gonna look at maybe. 20 verses, but there's a lot of background study that's gone into some of the other comments I'm gonna make. I've only got 20 minutes, and of course I can't be exhaustive covering everything scripture says, but I think the first reference I want to look at is the key one in all of scripture. That's a statement, isn't it? And it's Genesis 12, two and three. It is perhaps the true biblical lens on this topic. The conversation is between God, the master of the universe, and Abraham, the father of our faith. So quite a helpful, uh, conversation to, uh, consider and it contains, uh, an absolutely key [00:12:00] principle. In fact, these two verses have impressed me so much for many years, maybe 30 years. And if ever I were vain enough to buy a personalized number plate for a car, it would be GEN 1 2 3, Genesis 12, 2, 2, 3. Rest assured, I'm not planning to do that. But God says in these scriptures, I will make you Abraham into a great nation, and I will bless you. I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you. And whoever curses you I'll curse and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you. Now, some people have rationalized that and said, yes, people on earth would be blessed through Abraham because he's in the lineage of Jesus. Well, that's true, of course, but I think that ignores, um, the richness of what God's actually saying, which is [00:13:00] this, I will enrich your life so that you can enrich others' lives. I will enrich your life so that you can enrich others' lives. And since we're grafted in to the Jewish roots as it tells us in scripture, this is true for us too, whoever, uh, is listening, uh, to what I'm saying today, I will enrich your lives as God so that you can enrich others' lives. Now, um, when we look at the Jewish race, uh, from that, that, that root in Genesis 12, um, we see this in history. The fact that Jews are disproportionately successful in many fields of endeavor is undeniable. The statistic, see, statistics simply speak for themselves. [00:14:00] Uh, Jews make up about Naugh 0.4, uh, percent of the world's population. And yet, 30% of Nobel Prize winners in science have been Jewish in virtually every industry. Successful Jews are disproportionately represented. We see it in art, music, informatics, physics, the list goes on, and they've consistently made it more than 20% of the Forbes 400 list of the world's richest pe richest people. Now, of course, the world has caught in many conspiracy theories on this, uh, that, uh, Jews have oppressed others and they've stolen, and, uh, that was some of the Origins of the, the Nazism of the Second World War. But the bold facts are this, God said, the gifts and the calling are irrevocable. Romans [00:15:00] 1129, when God gives a gift, when God makes a calling. It's irrevocable, and the calling is right there in Genesis 12, two to three. Well, there's the background. I want to just say a little bit now about what the Bible says about poverty and what the Bible says about wealth. Now it's, it so happens that many years ago, maybe, maybe as many as 30 years ago, um, I made an extensive, exhaustive study of biblical poverty. I, I pulled out every single verse that referred to poverty and studied it, and I was amazed to find that there are three distinct types of poverty in scripture, not be confused with each other. The first is chance disadvantage. Things have been going fine, and then suddenly you lose your parents. Things have been going fine. Then suddenly your crops fail. Things have been going fine and [00:16:00] suddenly there's. Psalm 82. Three says, defend the cause of the weak and fatherless, and we must look after the fatherless and the widows and those that are, uh, seriously disadvantaged by what, uh, has happened to them. Chance disadvantaged, uh, big, big group. Second, um, and you'll relate to this, is oppression through, for instance, uh, slavery. Isaiah 10 wants to woe to those who make unjust laws to those who issue oppressive decrees to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless oppression. Um, now we see oppression in many forms in society now, and perhaps one of the. Biggest, um, or certainly a very big one is, [00:17:00] is the, the drug trade. Um, people are enslaved, um, by their addiction to drugs and, and some pushes will actually give drugs away to get people enslaved and then start charging them ridiculous sums of money. Another form of of oppression we see are, uh, loan sharks who, uh, find people in real need, uh, lend them the money that they need, and then they charge them 20, 25, 30% interest, uh, with, uh, violence if that interest isn't paid. Oppression and slavery. Now, the third group, which is a very big group, and you will relate to this as you hear me say it, is foolishness. Uh, for instance, laziness. Proverbs ten four says, lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. And, and foolishness results in a good deal of [00:18:00] biblical, uh, poverty. Now they all share this one emotional, uh, feeling, which is shame. No matter how you've become poor, you, you feel ashamed. Uh, sin isn't built into them apart from foolishness. The others haven't sinned. Uh, they've been, um, they have been sinned against, um, or circumstances have contrived to make their, their circumstances very, um, their, their situation very, very difficult. Now, I suggest, uh, just like in medicine that the diagnosis determines the treatment and that applying a standard approach to poverty without that diagnosis is unhelpful. So maybe the kingdom response is different for each of these three causes, such as. In disadvantage, we care, share and give sacrificially to those who have no choices [00:19:00] in oppression. We campaign fight the oppressors and strive to release the captives. And in foolishness, we may not give of our money, but we might give of our time and energy to educate, demonstrate responsibility, and set clear standards. What does the Bible say about wealth? Let's move on. We'll take a concordance. It's a good exercise. Skin the references to wealth, and you will see one thing. The majority of old Tess references are describing a good thing. Proverbs 28 20. A faithful man will abound with blessings. Deuteronomy eight 18. But remember the Lord your God for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth and so confirms his covenant, which he swart your ancestors as it is today.[00:20:00] Well, that's one thing, but the next thing you'll notice is the majority of New Testament references are warning of the deceitfulness of wealth, the temptation to hoard, and the temptation to put our hope in wealth. Why? Well, I think because Jesus and, uh, the early church leaders had seen how the Jews had disobeyed what I call the giving imperative. In other words, they were happy to be rich, but did not see that the purpose of being rich was to bless others. As Genesis 12, two to three in my number plate, uh, had said the prosperity gospel. Perhaps makes the same mistake. The prosperity gospel is common these days, um, less so in the uk, but we see it massively in Africa, and it perhaps overemphasizes the fact that yes, God does bless his people, [00:21:00] but perhaps it under emphasizes the fact that we are blessed to be a blessing, to be givers. When I studied the teachings on Jesus, this giving imperative is dealt with. So well take covetousness for instance. How often do we use that word or even think about the concept and not often. And yet this is strange as we live in a world where material goods not only abound, but of temples dedicated to them, often called shopping outlets or shopping malls built to celebrate their existence. We risk being inoculated by over-exposure, such that we may fail to recognize covetousness in our own lives. And that's why Jesus speaks, uh, on this very, very topic, watch out and be on guard against all greed because one's life is not in the abundance of his possession. That's Luke [00:22:00] 1215 and Jizz went on to tell the story of the man who took it easy and said to himself, oh, you have many goods. Stood it for many years. Take it easy. Eat, drink, and enjoy yourself. But God said to him, you fool. It's very night. Your life is demanded of you and the things you have prepared, whose will they be? Jesus concluded. That's how it is with the one who stores a treasure for himself and is not rich toward God. Are you getting the picture? Wealth maybe may be a good thing. If we can pass it on and bless other people. When the rich young ruler came to Jesus in Matthew 1916, it was not his riches that were the problem, but his selfish love of his riches, that was the problem Jesus saw through him immediately. Let's stop and subject [00:23:00] ourselves to the same test about all we have. How? How do we fare? Is it that we have to have this for ourselves or is it that we can share this with those who might appreciate it? When the Crowd followed Jesus after the feeding of 5,000, he saw the greedy reason why they came. I assure you, Jesus said, you are looking for me. Not because you saw the signs, but because you at the loaves and were filled. That's John 6 26. Would we be the same? How earnestly do we want him or do we just want what he gives us? Hmm. But let's be positive. The opposite of covetousness is contentment. It protects us against the insidious spiritual dullness that love of riches brings. Look at the Pharisees. They always [00:24:00] regarded, uh, or they were always regarded by Jesus as hypocrites and described as lovers of money. I'm sure this played a big part in the fact they, that they followed Jesus around what a privilege. Heard his teachings. Wouldn't that be great? But we're listening to all these things and scoffing at him. What a tragedy as Luke, uh, 16, 14 in this area, we need to take heed. What Jesus had to say is radical. We must be content with what we have or the price we will pay may be a weakened faith. In fact, ultimately it might cost us failure to have any real faith at all. I wanna bring this, um, into land, uh, if I may, and, uh, think about, uh, cures and antidotes. Uh, as a doctor, I was trained to look at the diagnosis, then apply a cure. We were never, [00:25:00] uh, trained to apply a cure before we knew what the diagnosis was. And as I've said, poverty appears to have three diagnosis, chance, disadvantage, oppression, and foolishness. Wealth, on the other hand, may make us cot and be greedy, but here are some cures, contentment, cures, covetousness. The two can't coexist. Generosity. Cures greed and aggresses. Two of the three causes of poverty. Wisdom recognizes food foolishness and can address the, the the third cause of poverty. And in all these things, if our true currency is love, we will apply the correct cure. In fact, for us as kingdom citizens, love has to be [00:26:00] the currency we particularly want to accrue. Acts two challenges in in, in contentment and generosity. And it's a holy order. It results in living as family. That's what happened in Acts two. They demonstrated contentment and generosity and they lived as family. We are generous to all, but more so to believers. So let's look at Galatians six 10. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. We are meant to bless each other within our family. We've gotta get family to get this, uh, antidote applied. You may wonder as I come [00:27:00] to the close of this talk, why I've not mentioned the T word, the tithing. Well, tithing is a starting point. Um, but it lets the wealthy off lightly. Uh, and it's quite harsh on people who don't have a lot of money. 10% of a poor income is a great deal of money to give. 10% of a very big income hardly impacts the giver. So scripture actually deals with this, uh, further and encourages us to be cheerful givers. To Corinthians nine, six to eight is our target. It says this, each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver. Maybe that is 15, 20, 30% or more. We should give [00:28:00] until we just have to laugh. It was John Wesley, who is alleged to have said, earn all you can give all you can save all you can. So let me close. If God blesses you with wealth. It is for you to thank him and share your blessing. In fact, God will give you prosperity. You are in the promise. Genesis 12, two and three. You can have that number plate as well. But beware that money can master you. Contentment and giving generously and outrageously will kill that. So why not start to give outrageously? Let me close with this scripture, uh, one Timothy six, 17 to 18. Command those who are rich in this present world, not to be arrogant, nor [00:29:00] to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous. Unwilling to share. I hope these thoughts have been helpful. Bless you. Phil: Thanks very much, John. Uh, wow, what a lot to think and talk about there. We'll be, uh, coming back to chat about that. So if you wanna put some comments in the text, uh, in the chat, that would be great. We'll talk about it in Conversation Street, but now we're gonna go to the Prayer to the Ukraine. At a time of praise and worship, we'll be back in a little bit.[00:30:00] Matt: Father God king of all nations, we cry out to you. Now, for the people of Ukraine, we ask you to rescue those who are vulnerable from the hands of their enemies. That they may live life without fear before you all of their days. Lord have mercy. Lord of lords and Prince of peace. Our politicians are predicting the biggest warring Europe. Since 1945, and we simply cry out to you urgently to write another story in our time. For the dark machinations of evil men give wisdom beyond human wisdom to peacemakers seeking in an equitable and less violent way. May politicians exercise the wisdom from above, which is peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, and full of mercy. Lord have mercy. Holy spirit, we pray for the church in Ukraine, a [00:31:00] nation in which 70% of the population call themselves Christian. Give our many brothers and sisters in that nation courage in this crisis that they may proclaim the good news of your kingdom. Bind up broken hearts and bring comfort. To all who mourn. Lord have mercy. You Lord, make war cease to the end of the earth. You break bows, shatter spears, and burn shields with fire. And so we ask you now to save the lives of many people in Ukraine. Make a peace that is strong and not weak. Deescalate this crisis. We hear of wars and rumors of wars, but you Lord are our rock, our fortress, and our deliverer. Our hope is in you. And so we address the nation's now in the name of Jesus. We say, be still and know God. He is exalted among the nations. [00:32:00] He shall be exalted in the earth. Lord have mercy. Video: When I the on which the glory.[00:33:00] Scary and my. Of Christ, my God.[00:34:00] Down to his blood, see from his head.[00:35:00] I thank you for. Cross. Thank you for the Lord. I thank you the thank you. I thank you.[00:36:00] Of nature freefall.[00:37:00] I thank you the cross. I thank you. I thank you. I thank you for the cross. Thank you for the cross. Thank you for the cross. I love you for I love you for the I love you for the cross. I love you for the I love you. I love you for cross.[00:38:00] Matt: Welcome back. Welcome to Conversation Street. Uh, it feels like an age ago when we were last on the camera, Phil, I dunno. Oh, you were on, uh, between the talk and the worship? Oh Phil: yeah. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with what I've been doing. Matt, it's you, you, you've the one. Yeah. No, I dunno. Matt: Fair play. As long as it's my fault. That's the main thing, uh, I can resolve that problem. Uh, so what does the Bible say about poverty and wealth now? That's the second time I have heard John's talk, uh, on this topic. Uh, and I have to say, uh, when I listened to it, uh, the first time I thought, goodness me, I've not actually heard people talk about it the way that John has talked about it, um, that much [00:39:00] in church, if I'm honest with you. Uh, he rarely talked about the tithe, which we will get into and what that all means and so on and so forth. Um, and he started off the talk by using an old fashioned word, Phil, which I thought you'd appreciate the, the, the, the word mammon. Phil: Yeah, I, the etymological route. I, I was just thinking about that. I only don't, I think you've gotta be, you've probably gotta be brought up in church and be a certain age if plus. To think about the word mamm. Uh, maybe a more modern world would be materialism, but I'm trying to think of something that sums that up. Um, it's not as simple as having money. It's maybe wealth and the love of world. So the cars, if you've got cars, your property mm-hmm. Your pensions, your clothes, the brands, whatever else that you, uh, may consider the make up, I'm gonna say make up your portfolio of wealth. Um, and I thought it was really interesting when John was talking about [00:40:00] how much the Bible and Jesus talks about our wealth, how we manage it, how it impacts upon us. And I, I there's so much there mean it is, you know, it's a topic I've thought about a lot, especially 'cause I knew we were talking about it, but, um, lots to think about there. I think one of the things that struck me was, um, again, you and me, Matt, we live in the western world in 2022, and I know we were saying earlier that there's a, there's a. We've had a budget recently in England last week and UK last week. And, uh, energy prices are going up, inflation is going up, and there is, uh, we're gonna be as a, as a British society and probably European to less well off in the next few years than perhaps we used to. Matt: Yeah. Phil: However, relative to the history of humans in the world, we are pretty well off. You and me. Mm-hmm. Um, and there's a privilege there and lots of things to think about with what John said, but, um, I'm tempted to quote Spider-Man, but [00:41:00] get it slightly wrong. What is it? With great, with great power. Great Matt: power comes great responsibility. Phil: Yeah. And I, I spin that a little bit too. With great privilege comes great responsibility. 'cause I do believe, yeah. Uh, being me, I mean, you know, me and my wife, we have solid, dependable incomes. And whilst our outgoings again go up, I, I'm a teacher and I worked for local council promoting, fostering. My wife has worked in, she's a solicitor working in private practice, uh, in the public sector now. She works in education. We know what we are gonna earn and we know it's a pretty healthy number, uh, unless something radical happens. And a bit like when John was saying, unless I think I'm gonna look at my little notes, he said unless something, what did he call it? One, two, and three. Can I find it? Yeah. Unless there's a chance disadvantage. Matt: Yeah. Phil: Brings us back to someone like Ukraine. You could have been very good job living perfectly adequately living within your margins, living within [00:42:00] your income. A war happens and there is nothing you can do, but get out of where you are. Mm-hmm. And your, your prosperity if you like your wealth and your income crashes down. But I think the question for people like me, and if you are watching this and you have to decide whether you are anything like me, is, what am I gonna do with my privilege? What am I gonna do with my wealth? Because. A significant proportion of the 7 billion people on the planet would, would love to be as privileged as as, as the Watsons are. I dunno what you think about that, Matt. Matt: I think it's a really good question, Phil. I, the word privilege, I think is a fascinating use of that word. Um, and I would agree with you because I, I, I think so often when we look at our money or when we look at what we have and what we don't have, we always look up. And when you look up, you've never got quite enough. Do you know what I mean? You, you've never got as much as they've got. Uh, and it's part of our culture, isn't it, to, you know, we idolize celebrity in [00:43:00] some respects, and celebrity is one of the things that they all have in common, is a very big bank account. Well, at least in theory, at least that's what we think they, they have. And so. It becomes very easy to go, well, I've not got enough, or I'm, you know, compared to them, I've not got enough. And, you know, I, I don't want to get political. Uh, and nor nor should we, uh, in some respects, but this whole idea to solve Britain's problems as you tax the wealthy and a lot of people in England go, well, let's just tax the wealthy as in the people that have earned more money than their, uh, than they have. But like you say, compared to sort of 97, 90 8% of the world, we are wealthy. Do you know what I mean? There's 98 people behind us looking at us going, you should pay more tax, or whatever it is. What are you gonna do with your privilege? And we're looking at the 2% in front of us going, you should pay more tax. What are you gonna do with your privilege? It's al Phil: always is there. Alright? The wealthy should be taxed and I'm not wealthy. And whoever says, and everyone's defining themselves in that [00:44:00] way. I mean, I know like you're a big football fan and I'm like, when I was younger, Delia Smith, if you're a fan of cooking, you'll know her. She's a, she, she put millions into Norwich. What a great football Matt: team. Yeah. Phil: Who are rapidly about to be relegated. And she's a very, very wealthy lady. But, you know, compared to the, the organizations that own Chelsea, possibly Newcastle Man City, you know, her wealth is tiny yet. Mm-hmm. Um, I guess what we're saying is it is relative, isn't it? It's relative poverty, but you, whatever you've got, and I don't think John mentioned this particular, um, the story of the woman who, I think she's a widow in the Bible who puts basically all her wealth into the, the offering. And, um, I mean, it won't surprise you to, for, so for me to say this, and if you know me, you'll, you'll get where I'm going with this. We've talked about Ukraine, we talked about, you know, refugees. And whatever you've got, if you are in the uk, it's more than they've got because probably mm-hmm. You've got whatever they're carrying on their back. Um, they might have a bank account, it could be frozen, I don't know. But, um, I think if [00:45:00] you've got something, like if you've got some resources, the Bible is very clear about sharing them. Um, so for us mm-hmm. Uh, you've got a, if you've got a spare room, um, what's in it, what's in your spare? There's a question for you, Matt, for everybody else, if you've got a spare room, do you use it to keep junk and rubbish that your one day take to a car boot sale or the tip or your, I don't know, you know, is it full of rubbish or is it possible that you could put up somebody who is a Ukrainian refugee that's appropriate? Mm-hmm. Is it, and you know where I'm going. Is it possible you can foster because, uh, you know, he, he, uh, John, he's one of my favorite verses there about defender of the fatherless. And I know that that sounds a little bit, sort of patriarchal, but you know, in, in biblical times, if you had no male to protect you, you have, you were really struggling. Uh, and he talked about windows again, and I'm just gonna say, 'cause he, you know, John used the word marginalized. Can you, what can you do with your spare room? Who could be in it? Um, who hasn't got anywhere, [00:46:00] anywhere safe to live or anywhere, you know, secure? Um, yeah. Lots to think about. Yeah, Matt: no, I think you're exactly right, Phil. And again, the onus isn't it, on us to do something with what we've been given. So rather than just assume the person that earns more in front of us are gonna solve the problem, what can I do? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And, and where can I be generous? And I think that's the, the call in Christ, isn't it, of the Christian faith. It's one of the things I think that defines it is we are, uh, compelled in some respects, commanded, uh, is a much stronger word to live, a generous life to look out for people. So if I, if I think about in the West, the 98 people behind me that don't have the level of. Security or wealth or family or love or whatever, you know, that, that don't have that, that I have it. What am I doing to help those people? How can I, how can I, uh, bring the love of God and the [00:47:00] generosity of God into that situation? Because tying it back to the gospel, that's fundamentally how it works. We, we kind of go, well, God's been ultimately infinitely generous with us. The least we could do is be generous back, right? Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not hold it tightly. I'm often thinking, I mean, in the Bible you've got the story about the, it's easier for a rich person to get into heaven than for the camel to get through an eye of the needle. And I've heard all sorts of talks on that and variations on what it could possibly mean, but putting it bluntly, I think what it's saying is if you are wealthy mm-hmm. You've gotta be really spiritually careful. Yeah. Because you're gonna end up just how John started to talk with, you'll end up loving money more than you'll end up loving God. And that spiritually extremely dangerous. Which is why I think giving money away is a really great, um, it's good for your spirit life. It's good for Matt: you Phil: goal because you're going, I mean, I mean, when we give, when the Watsons give our money away, when we, we, we [00:48:00] do tithe them, then we give on top. You go, you know what, there are times when I'd go, I, I, I, I don't want to do this. I'd rather keep the money. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, you have to Yeah. Matt: I've got, I've got this thing I'm saving up for over here. It'd be good to keep it. Phil: Yeah. And, and, and some, and, and yet you go, no, this is spiritual because I'm saying to God, I trust you enough. Um, I, and if I, if what if Christianity is true, then it's all true. It's either all true or none of it's true. Not well. I'll pick the bits I like. Yeah. Um, and I'm often, I often think as well, when you read the, you know, in the New Testament, there's lot of. Moving around. Jesus was on the move, quite a lot of walking around, um, sort of the area of Galilee down to Jerusalem. Then you think about people like Paul and Timothy and the other stories in the Bible where people are on the move. Somebody hosted all these people. Um, and I was think that, I mean, know sometimes they get mentioned in the Bible, don't they be thinking, yeah, what a great thing to do. Um, just, just a host, it's the gift of hospitality. And that is using your privilege, whether it's hosting somebody [00:49:00] you know, or somebody who is marginalized and, uh, you know, refugee, uh, uh, looked after child, whatever it might be. That's a wonderful of the resources that God has blessed you with. But all the time you're going, God, I've got this. What do you want me to do with it? Do you want me to, how do you want to compare it? How is this, how is my home gonna serve you? How is my wealth gonna serve you? Um, you know, how can I, if I've got a car, can I give people this? If I, if I've got a big car, how many people can I give a lift to? And I don't think there's anything wrong with having a large house. As long as you hold that, hold it lightly in your hands and go, God, I've got this great blessing. What should I do with it? Who do I need to exactly, who do I need to bless with this thing that I have today? Yeah, Matt: very good, very good. Just to, uh, meant a couple of times and just to sort of explain what that means, uh, the tithe is simply a practice that not everybody in the church [00:50:00] holds sacred, but a fair few do, uh, where we give 10% of our income, uh, to, uh, the work of God. Uh, basically. So, you know, we would give away 10%, not just charity necessarily, but 10% of our, our money would go to the work of God. It's something that we would choose to do. And then, like Phil said, you know, um, that, uh, and like John said, that's the minimum it then what do you do on, on top of that? And I think, uh, when it comes to being generous, uh, like any good alliteration, uh, if we have the tithe, uh, what else can I do with my time, my treasure, my talent, uh, and my tongue, I think is the, uh, the, the tease. I can't, I, I'm, I'm sure there's probably more, uh, but you can be generous with your time, your, your me, uh, your talent, the gifts that God's given you, um, and your tongue, I think is one that we definitely need in the world at the moment. Be generous with, with how you talk about people. Uh, and, and just be kind. Phil, we've got like two [00:51:00] minutes. We've talked a lot about being generous. What did you think to this idea of the three types of poverty that John mentioned? That was one of the things that I've not really heard before. Phil: Well, I think it's, it's very interesting, isn't it? Because I think sometimes when people are wealthy, and I would count myself wealthy and I've met some very, very wealthy people as well, they would, it, there's a real tendency to go, it's down to my skill and. And charm and ability. And it might be down to some of those things, but also I think we always have to build in how much of your wealth is built is down to where you were born and how you were born. Um Matt: mm-hmm. Phil: Be careful about taking all the credit when some of it is circumstantial, which is the inverse of what, um, John was saying to do with sometimes. Mm-hmm. Um, I think I'm gonna use this, I'm, I'm looking at the notes 'cause I like to have notes. Anyway, A chance disadvantage, you know, there's a, there's a war and suddenly you go from wealthy to no wealthy. Mm-hmm. No fault of your own. And then the second one, which I thought was, I could spend a long time talking about this one and chatting [00:52:00] about it with John, uh, where he talks about basically oppression, oppressive, mm-hmm. Slavery or oppressive laws, oppressive taxes, and mm-hmm. I mean, I'm glad I'm not Richard Sch Sumac who is the, uh, the chancellor in charge of the money in the United Kingdom. But, um, how you, how you create a system that is. Fair is extremely. Matt: Mm-hmm. Phil: And we, you know, whenever somebody says, I don't wanna get political, that's really, that means they're about to get political. Uh, I can't out thinking that you need to know how some poor people live to really, and what your laws and what changes you make will, will do. So I'm, I'm gonna chuck out another little challenge, which is, you know, you've got a spare room, foster, or take a Ukrainian refugee. If you've got strong opinions on what should happen in the taxes, the tax system, try and find, um, some poor people, somebody who uses big bank. Somebody who maybe, um, [00:53:00] is disadvantaged or marginalized, and find out why. And it might change your opinion on whether people are, uh, you know, this or, oh, they're poor because of their own life choices. 'cause it might mm-hmm. I know as a very simple one, if you've got enough money and you can afford to pay your energy, price, energy bills on a credit card or a direct debit, you get a discount. If you haven't got enough cash to pay by direct debit, you pay an additional charge to, to buy, to basically buy credit sticks that you put into your gas and electricity. So you are already penalized for being poor. That I probably explain that very well. But if, if, if you are wealthy, find somebody who isn't and, uh, get to know them and see what life looks like Yeah. And where they're sitting, um, have a Matt: conversation. Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Matt: That's one of the really fascinating things for me about, um, when I got involved with church, um, the, the, the [00:54:00] cross of people in church from, well, we have wealthy doctors and surgeons through to middle class. So then you've got the teachers, you know, and, and the educators and, and. And so forth to, you know, what we used to call the old working class, the sort of, um, those that, you know, were, were marginalized, were poor, and, and you, and you sat down with 'em. We went to that. They were, you know, we would, you and I would do this all the time, Phil, when we were students, we'd be around everybody's house for dinner. We could care less how much money you earned and what you put in front of us, whether it was a pot noodle or whether it was a steak pie. You know, it didn't make any difference, but it was an absolute privilege to get to know people and understand actually. The background that I have does, does not compute here. The worldview that I have. John talked about it, didn't he? The worldview that we look at things, um, through, you might want to expand that a little bit. Yeah. Uh, like Phil said, and Phil: because I mean the third one he said, which is, is your own responsibility is whether [00:55:00] you behave foolishly or stupidly. You know, you have to get up and go to work. Um, that being said, I think there is some with managing money. Some of it is the practical skills that some people don't have. Um, and that can make it difficult. And I think sometimes people get into debt because of emotional issues like he was talking about. Uh, drug dealers will look for vulnerable people. Mm. Uh, and get them hooked on drugs. So you end up in a cycle of poverty. I would say gambling is as big as that. It's something I've had a little bit of experience with where you get sucked into, you know, what is a legitimate business. Gambling, and I find it abhor that, um, you can gamble so easily, so quickly, get into so much debt, and you might go back to foolishness, but sometimes I'm kind of thinking people who get into, uh, examples of alcoholism or drugs or gambling, Video: but some Phil: kind of spiritual lack there, or some kind of deficit that goes, I need the buzz of the gamble to, to make me feel like I'm alive. Um, and maybe, hey, there's [00:56:00] another talk for another day. But, um, yeah. Matt: Yeah, Phil: yeah. There's a spiritual issue quite often behind why people can find themselves in debt. It is very often I don't, you know, if you do stupid things, if you buy things that you can't afford, then you are, you are, you're gonna be in trouble. You know, if you, if you are in debt and then you lose your job, it's not gonna go well for you. Um, but I'm just, again, speaking from a position of privilege there. Wow. We need to have another session on this, Matt. Okay. Matt: I think, I think we're just scratching the surface, Phil, and I'm aware of time and um, I think. I think you're entirely right. I think there's so much more to be said on it, and I think probably a good place to end this is just to say that as Christians, we believe that yes, you have to be generous, but we believe you, you are generous in response to the generosity of God. Uh, and, um, God is a very generous God. And the Bible talks a lot about God supplying our needs. And the rea, like Phil said earlier, the reason we can be generous is because we can trust God to supply our [00:57:00] needs, not our wants. I wanna be clear on that. You know, I want an Aston Martin. I'm just putting that out there. I'm never gonna be able to buy one because Sharon will never, ever allow me, and rightly so too. Uh, but you know, there's not gonna be one outside my front. Well, maybe there will be. I'm not gonna limit God, but Do you know what I mean? It's, uh, I'm not necessarily praying for the Aston Martin, but God does meet our needs and I think we can trust him. To, to do that. If the Christianity is true, then all of it's true and God is real. God's concerned about us, and God has the ability to meet all of our needs. And the Bible talks a lot about that. And out of that provision that comes from God, it's nothing to do with our education, nothing to do with our, uh, abilities, um, everything to with him then that we can be generous back. And I think, um, that's the story of the gospel right there. In that nutshell. So Phil, thanks for tonight, but [00:58:00] appreciate you bearing with us on the old technical and good. Uh, good riffing at the start about Mother's Day. Well done. Phil: You want me to talk? I'm your man. Matt: Definitely. Absolutely. Alright. Next week, uh, we are gonna be carrying on our conversations about what does the Bible say about, we're asking about church, what does the Bible say about church? Uh, we are gonna have a John Harding mashup next week. Yes, we are. John is joining us through the talk. Uh, and he is actually gonna be also joining us on Conversation Street, which I'm super psyched about. So, uh, we've got John Harding next week talking to us about that. So do make sure you like and subscribe and connect with us, uh, because next week is gonna be also fantastic with the most high Reverend John Harding. So, um, I think, is that his title, Phil? I think that's his title. Yeah. Phil: Well, yeah. The very, very reverend, very, very Reverend John. Matt: The very, very Reverend John. Absolutely. Uh, we're gonna play some worship now. Once the worship [00:59:00] has ended, the live stream will end automatically. Uh, feel free to stick around in the comments, but, um, from myself, thanks so much for joining us. Uh, it's been great to talk about this great challenge. What are you gonna do with your privileges? Such a good question to ponder, uh, because we can all respond if we're watching this, we can all respond to that question. So, uh, from me, have a great week, Phil. Phil: Thanks very much everybody. Uh, see you soon. Bye Matt: indeed. Bye for now, guys. Bless you. Video: I was an orphan last at the fall running away. When I hear you call Father, you work, you'll. I had no righteousness my own. I [01:00:00] had no right to join me throne. Father, you love me still and love. Before you lay the world's foundation, you predestined to adopt as your own. You have praise me above. Of God by grace, you left your home to seek out the lost. You knew the great terrible cause, but Jesus, your face once, sir, I worked my fingers [01:01:00] down to the bone. Nothing I did could ever told Jesus. You paid my dad. I have redemption and salvation. Lord die and I born again. I was in darkness all of my life. I never knew the day from the night spirits made me see. I swore on you the way on my own head, full of rocks apart made of stone. Have your [01:02:00] touch. My sleeping on my dark and heart light in Christ is shown according to a kingdom cannot shake heaven. Yes, I stand in faith by grace and grace alone. I'll run this race by grace and grace. No, I'll reach the by grace and grace alone. Heaven.