What Does The Bible Say About Sex?

What does the Bible say about Sex_ Rachel: [00:00:00] I believe we're live. Are we live? Yes we are. Hello everyone and welcome to Crowd Church. It is great to see you on this. Maybe not so sunny, early evening here in Liverpool. Um, welcome to the Bay Couch, which is very comfy, I have to say, slightly velvety. Um, my name is Rachel and I am your host for today. Um, normally I host for Sharon or someone else, and you've just got me today. So. There we go. Um, I am looking forward to this evening, well, this afternoon, early evening, wherever we are, um, because we've got a great topic coming up. Um, but how are you doing? How's the weather with you? How's your day been? Have you had a good day? Um, I've had a great day so far. I've been [00:01:00] to church in the morning. I go to Frontline Church here in Liverpool. Um, had a really good talk this morning from our senior pastor and, um, he and his wife are actually going to join us for Conversation Street, uh, later on, which is gonna be great. Um, I've had a bit of a chill, I've watched a bit of Pirates of the Caribbean, um, uh, I was gonna say, how old's the film? And then we Googled it. It was from 2003, so a bit of a golden oldie. So, um, yeah, enjoyed a bit of that. And now here we are in Crowd Church. So, um, today we are gonna be looking at another, what does the Bible say? Series. And today the topic is, um, what does the Bible say about sex? Yes, you heard me right? We are gonna be doing that topic and um, we have a talk prepared by the wonderful Kirsten Harding, who, [00:02:00] um, is also gonna be joining us later with John, um, to answer questions. So she's prepared a really fab talk for us to listen to, which we'll come to shortly. Um, so as if you are a regular with Crowd, you'll know how to comment and how to get involved. You can email in, you can WhatsApp in, and you can also add comments on the live feed. So. Hello to everyone that is watching already. Yes, I am Marshall with a double L. That is absolutely right, but you know what, I'm not gonna get that upset about it today. So, um, please do add your comments in. Um, our, our technical wiz is now trying to correct my name. Well done, John. Well done. Um, please do add your wonderful comments to the topic that we are gonna discuss today. Um, now we were thinking [00:03:00] about this earlier and we just wanna acknowledge that talking about the topic of sex is actually quite a personal one. And so we do want you to comment, but equally, we don't want you to self disclose anything that will be if you like, viewed by lots of other people. So just be aware of that. If you are a chatty person and you like adding comments onto the chat. Please don't feel that you, um, need to self-disclose anything, okay? Because we wanna treat this wonderful subject and it is a wonderful subject with care and with respect, and with honor, and we wanna honor you as members of Crowd Church as well. So please don't feel like you've gotta put stuff out there that will make you feel vulnerable, okay? That is not the goal of this evening. And, um, in my day job, a lot of what I do is connected to safeguarding. So I [00:04:00] really care about stuff like this and we really care about you. So, um, if anything does come up for you and you just think, oh, I would like to talk to someone, or I'd like some help or some guidance, or you've got questions, then please do email them in, because then they're more specific for you. And then you might feel like there's more you can share. Um, without it going global, if you like. Um, it, which is what happens, doesn't it, with the internet. So I hope that's okay. Everyone give me a thumbs up in the chat if you are happy with that and we'll go from there. So where am I up to? Oh yeah, I think, yep. So we're gonna have to talk very, very shortly. Then we're gonna have some singing to God, some worship, um, and the song I've written down and I can't remember where I've put it anyway, and then we're gonna have Conversation Street. And as again, as I said, that's gonna be with the wonderful John [00:05:00] and Kirsten Harding, they're gonna join us. Um, so they're gonna join with me virtually from their neck of the woods. And we're gonna chat and we are gonna discuss some of, um, the topic that we're looking at today. So. Get yourself a brew if you haven't got one already. Um, sit back and enjoy this talk and I will see you very, very shortly. Okay, see you soon.[00:06:00] Kirsten: What does the Bible say about sex? Everyone has an opinion about sex, about how we should view it, whether or not we should talk about it. What makes sex good or bad? What boundaries or limits should be around sex. Sex is a really emotive topic, and attitudes and protectives towards sex vary massively from place to place within different cultures. Some cultures and places would not be comfortable talking openly about sex. It would be seen as something intensely private and personal. And some [00:07:00] places, some cultures would have a much more open attitude towards sex. I mean, if you travel, just look at billboards and adverts in some cultures, sex cells. And that's before we even get into how attitudes towards sex have changed over time. So it's probably safe to say that how a non-religious young person in the UK today, how they might view sex is probably gonna be quite different to how sex was viewed, say two or 3000 years ago in the Middle Eastern Jewish or Christian community. The way the Bible talks about sex, and we could be quite tempted in this modern world to say, well, you have your opinions. I have mine each their own. As long as you're not harming someone, do what you want. But I've got to say, I'm coming from the point of view that what we find in the Bible, the way the Bible calls us to live in every area of our lives, what it says about [00:08:00] relationships and money and work and life, I believe the biblical perspective is the healthiest, most rewarding way to live. And that's got to be true of what the Bible says about sex as well. And the Bible really does have a lot to say about sex. The Bible celebrates sex. It speaks positively about certain kinds of sex, and the Bible also talks about some aspects of sex that defy defines as harmful or bad in places, boundaries and parameters around sex for human benefit and flourishing. There is a definite consistent culture around sex in the Bible that spans thousands of years and spread of cultures and people groups. Now, I studied theology many moons ago, and then I did a postgraduate teacher training, and part of that training was to teach sex education. So I'm quite used to talking about sex with young people. I'm not easily shocked, [00:09:00] and when I say opinions and perspectives on sex vary massively. Let me tell you, I know that from the experience of teaching sex ed to high school students for nearly 20 years. In sex education, we place our talk about sex into the context of a loving and committed relationships. And what I want to root of what I say today in that, that the Bible has a huge amount to say about love and committed relationships. That's the context for healthy sex. Sex that is good for us and for each other. The sort of sex the Bible celebrates is sex between a husband and a wife within marriage. That is an expression of intimacy and union. The Bible in Mark uses the phrase of two, becoming one flesh, and it's seen as good and a gift pure and holy, something that binds two people together in love. But simply the Bible warns us in the strongest terms that any sexual activity outside of this union will harm [00:10:00] us or cause hurt to others. And I think often for young people, for single people, that can seem quite challenging, quite harsh. Here's this amazing thing called sex, a gift from God to humans. And we have this deep, biological, hormonal urge. That's how God created us. But then some people are not allowed to do it. That can seem quite harsh, quite problematic for some people. So I just wanna stress that the Bible really does offer an alternative for those who are not married. The Bible celebrates and affirms singleness and celibacy, abstinence and non-sexual friendships. Not a second rate, but actually is equal and at times more valuable than marriage. Jesus, the most fulfilled, joyful person who ever lived, lived his entire life, single without sex and found fulfillment in his relationship with God the Father, and through close friendships with his disciples. I think that's important to say. The [00:11:00] Bible paints a picture of a fulfilled, joyful life without sex, and the Bible paints a picture of fulfillment and joy within marriage through the gift of sex. Both are true and both are valid. Now, when it comes to how we view sex, we contend to fall into unhelpful extremes. Two fairly obvious traps that we can fall into when thinking or talking about sex. We can either make it the most important thing in our lives, the thing we obsess over and strive for, or we can make it something bad, dirty, something to be avoided. It's what Rob Bell in his book, sex God describes as being like angels or animals. When we de deny the spiritual dimension to our existence, we end up living like animals, and when we deny the physical sexual dimension to our existence, we end up living like angels. Both ways are destructive because God made us human. So is it a sin to have [00:12:00] sex? Well, yes and no. Is sex good or bad? Well, there can be both. Good sex and bad sex. A few years ago I was at a church leaders conference and the guy was doing a bible talk on sex. He said, sex is like food and diet. You can have good sex and bad sex, like you can have a good diet or a bad diet. He then opened it up for discussion, interaction from the audience. He asked, how can sex be like a good diet? And my wonderful husband, John, put his hands straight up and said in the mic in front of about 500 people. Well, you've got to get your five a day in. Yeah, pretty silly. But the Bible starts with Adam and Eve in the garden before sin, before any sin in the world. And they are commanded to go forth and multiply. They are told to have sex. Sex is part of the good gift of God in creation. And then a sin enters the world. God puts a very simple parameter in place to protect people to minimize [00:13:00] harm. And the parameter puts in place is this, sex is only a good thing in marriage between a man and a woman. It's that simple. In the New Testament, our English translations often use the phrase sexual immorality. It's from the Greek word porn, and it simply means any form of sexual activity outside of marriage. But I think we get into all sorts of problems when as Christians, we lead on the message of what we're against rather than what we're for. It's far more important to celebrate what's good about sex and what good sex means rather than to major on condemning bad sex. And I say that because I think the church in general, throughout history has done a really good job at giving a bad message about sex. Sex is dirty, sex is bad, sex is wrong. And it creates a really unhealthy, weird culture when we do that. Yes, Jesus said, if a man looks lustfully another [00:14:00] woman, it's adultery of the heart. And yes, Jesus said, if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. But what Jesus calling us to do is to focus our gaze onto what is good and pure and to discipline our minds learning how to take thoughts captive. I think it was the early church leader Oregon, who around 200 CCE castrated himself. You know, he literally cut his testes off. And for me, that just speaks of such unhealthy, weird view of sex. Something that could have been resolved through accountability and confession and deeper intimacy with Jesus. Something that probably emerged through enforce celibacy in the church at that time. But in the Bible, it speaks of sex within marriage in such beautiful, pure ways. It even devotes a whole book to this sort of expression of love, physical intimacy. The Song of Songs deemed so [00:15:00] saucy by Orthodox Jews that you weren't allowed to read until you were over 30. It's a romantic poem and song between a lover and his beloved. The woman says to the man, kiss me with the kisses of your lips. Let us hurry into the bedroom. The man then goes on to sing of the delight of her breasts. I mean, he really has a lot to say about her breasts. It's saucy stuff, but there's nothing rude or dirty about it. It's a celebration of the delight of sex that God intended within marriage. It's easy to miss or overlook because a lot of the times the Bible uses idiom or metaphor much like we do today when we speak about sex. People don't tend to say they want sex, but we talk about making love or sleeping together or Netflix and chill. And the Bible does the same. It talks about spreading the hem of your garment over your lover, like in the Book of Ruth. And what's really [00:16:00] interesting about the language of the lover and his beloved and the language of the hem of the garment in Ruth is that the same language is used of God and his people. Not in a physical, literal way, but the Bible is so concerned to speak of the incredible love and commitment and union and intimacy between God and his people, that at times it uses the metaphor and imagery of sexual union. That's because sex is bigger than just sex. And I think it really helps us to see the culture of the Bible towards sex. That sex is not dirty or bad. It's something good and pure and holy. Something that deepens intimacy and binds two people together in commitment. I think that's why God places sex entirely within the context of marriage, because when you have a healthy view of sex, when you realize just how precious, how intimate, [00:17:00] how vulnerable it is, how deeply and profoundly it connects two people together, then it's impossible to see casual sex or hookups as anything but harmful. When the Apostle Paul talks about this, this sense of union between two people through sex, he says That's why prostitution is so wrong because you become spiritually united with a person. Your spirits join in the act of sex. There are so many other reasons why sex works best within marriage. The risk of unwanted pregnancy, STIs, the hurt that comes when relationships break up, the desensitizing and dehumanizing dimension of casual or sex, the way the sex industry is funded, people trafficking and abuse, the addictive and damaging nature of pornography. I would say it's pretty obvious that God's pattern for sex is best, [00:18:00] and I think it's really important to say that we'd really encourage you to seek professional counseling and help if you've experienced harm through sexual experiences. Professional counseling provides a safe context to process these things, and alongside that, talk to God about it. Ask him to bring healing to you. For those in marriage, sex can be a real source of conflict and tension. How often do you do it? How rewarding is it for both people? Things like the impact of ill health work or money pressures and stress age, so many factors can feed into this, but I'd really encourage you if you're a married couple to talk about this, talk about your hopes and desires. Get a couple counseling if you need it. Watch this talk again together. Do something like the alpha marriage course. What I'm saying is that sex [00:19:00] is precious and valuable, so invest in your marriage, invest in one another, really make the effort to be intimate together in a way that is mutually rewarding. Experts say that the less you have sex in marriage, the less you want to have sex. It's a vicious cycle, but the more you have sex, the more you want to have sex. And apparently that's true for both men and women. So we have to take a long-term committed view to this. I think one of the most important starting points to all of this is how we view marriage. My husband John, does not exist to meet my needs and I don't exist to meet his needs. And yet, marriages thrive when each individual makes it their goal to meet their partner's needs in the widest sense, not just sexually. So you have to take the time to work out each other's love languages, and you have to make the effort to know and serve the other [00:20:00] person's needs. And when we do that, we'll build a really great foundation for rewarding sex within marriage. I think that ultimately that's the key, the foundation to great sex in marriage, and it's really the key to navigating all those sorts of questions that Christian couples get hung up about on sex. Like what things you can or can't do in the bedroom. Because your focus is around love and intimacy and serving one another and expressing and communicating those needs. And that's just a little introduction to what the Bible has to say about sex. Rachel: Wow. I have to say, Kirsten, that was an absolutely fantastic talk. Um, you covered so much ground and I just wanna thank you and later we are gonna chat with Kirsten. So, um, if you've got any [00:21:00] questions that you wanna ask, then please add them into the chat. Um, but before that we are gonna have some singing time, worship time, whatever you wanna call it, but we are, um, gonna be singing praises to God. So enjoy the music, enjoy the words. And um, before that, thank you for a kind reminder, we are gonna have some Prayer time again for the Ukraine. I really appreciate this time. So, um, we'll have some Prayer time and then we'll go into worship. Okay. See you soon. Matt: Father God, king of all nations, we cry out to you. Now, for the people of Ukraine, we ask you to rescue those who are vulnerable from the hands of their enemies. That they may live life without fear [00:22:00] before you all of their days. Lord, have mercy, Lord of lords and prince of peace. Our politicians are predicting the biggest war in Europe since 1945, and we simply cry out to you urgently to write another story in our time for the dark machinations of evil men give wisdom beyond human wisdom to peacemakers seeking an equitable and less violent way. May politicians exercise the wisdom from above, which is peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, and full of mercy. Lord have mercy. Holy Spirit, we pray for the church in Ukraine, a nation in which 70% of the population call themselves Christian. Give our many brothers and sisters in that nation courage in this Christ. This, that they may proclaim the good news of [00:23:00] your kingdom, bind up broken hearts and bring comfort to all who mourn. Lord have mercy. You Lord, make war cease to the end of the earth. You break bows, shatter spears, and burn shields with fire. And so we ask you now to save the lives of many people in Ukraine. Make a peace that is strong and not weak. Deescalate this crisis. We hear of wars and rumors of wars, but you Lord are our rock, our fortress, and our deliverer. Our hope is in you. And so we address the nations now in the name of Jesus. We say, be still and know God. He is exalted among the nations. He shall be exalted in the earth. Lord have mercy.[00:24:00] Video: Let the. My, let the king of my heart be the shadow you. You're good.[00:25:00] Let the king of my heart be the be let the king of heart be the[00:26:00] good. You good.[00:27:00] Are good.[00:28:00] Rachel: Wow. Thank you. Thank you for that beautiful worship song. Absolutely love that one. Um, yeah, and for the praying for the Ukraine as well and, um, I'm really grateful that we can do that together. So I just wanna say a massive, massive welcome to Kirsten. Who prepared an amazing talk for us today. I have to say, Kirsten, you must have spent hours on it. Yep. Thank you very much. And her wonderful husband, John, [00:29:00] who is also our senior pastor here at Frontline Church. So a massive welcome to you both. John: Thank you very much. It's great to be here and we love tuning into Crowd and we love the way that God is using it to reach people and to bring, you know, comfort and connection to people. So it's just a pleasure to be able to get a little bit of time to have a chat with you, Rach. Rachel: Wonderful. So how's your day been so far for you both? Have you had a good day? Yeah, it's been good. Been good for me. Has it been good for you? John: I've had a great day. Yeah. I mean, we've um, been at church together this morning. Yeah. And we're church together now. We've just been singing along to the worship and praying along to the Prayer, you know, really enjoyed that. And, uh, Kirsten: some things. Rachel: That be good? Oh, brilliant, brilliant. I, I should think there's think so too because Kirsten, I reckon you must have spent hours prepping that talk. It was you, [00:30:00] what didn't you cover? You know, you've covered a lot of ground there and, um, I think it's very clear that, um, you know, you are used to talking about this subject in school and um, you know, you've thought about it a lot, I would say. Would that be fair to say? Kirsten: Absolutely. Yeah. As I said, a history of both of us actually teaching sex ed in secondary schools and always interesting. John: I mean, you've sort what our mealtimes are. Like. You've got, uh, an re teacher, an X re teacher, two people who've met, stood in theology and philosophy. Two teenage boys. So, um, tend to get into quite big topics over the dinner table anyway, don't we? Rachel: Brilliant, brilliant. And I bet it's a learning opportunity for all of you probably. Yeah. But I mean, I I, I don't know about your, um, older teenagers now, but it seems like teenagers these days are a bit more [00:31:00] open, would you say, to talking than perhaps when we were growing up. Would you think? That's fair comment. John: You've got girls with boys. Rachel: Yeah. Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm really glad that sex ed is on the curriculum in school, I have to say. I think it's really important. So well done to both of you, but to bring it back to your talk then, Kirsten. And so, um, it would appear that the Bible has an awful lot to say on this topic. I, I. Yeah. Yeah. And um, what really struck me was, um, how actually in the Bible, how celebratory is it is of sex. And, um, you know, I've, I've been a Christian A. Long time, but I can imagine for some of our viewers that might have maybe been a bit of a surprise that the Bible does actually celebrate sex quite a lot. Kirsten: Absolutely. And I think in, in planning the talking, thinking about what I was gonna say [00:32:00] just to say, well, this is something that God has designed, is created for, in intimacy between two people. Um, it's a good, obviously it can be treated in a way that isn't good and can be diminished and people can be diminished. Yeah. But ultimately the, the plan there is for it to be a good thing between two people. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that, I, I think if there's anything of the, the take home message from today, that would be one of the main points that I'm gonna take from your talk. That, um, it's actually God's plan for humans to be able to enjoy intimacy in this way. Um, but let, let's just have a little bit more of a chat about boundaries. 'cause that's another theme that came through your talk. You know, that, um, God doesn't say fo basically follow your urges and do what you like. You know, there seems to be boundaries that he's clearly sharing with us. So, um, yeah. Do you wanna expand a little bit more on that, that [00:33:00] would help us think about it a bit more? John: I mean, I've gotta say, I thought my wife did an amazing talk, but I was a bit shocked how many times she said the word sex in 20 minutes. Yeah, yeah. The truth is you would be really hard pushed to find a person on this planet who did not believe that there should be some sort of boundaries around sex. Right. The question is, where do you get your boundaries from? I mean, all agree on boundaries, you know, what might be considered appropriate and what might be considered harmful. Mm-hmm. But people didn't believe that there are things to do with sex that are appropriate and harmful. Mm-hmm. We've just, persons outlined is the best of what we understand the Bible to say about that. Mm-hmm. And we've just sang. We've just sang together a brilliant song for this topic. You are good. Yeah. And that is our underpinning belief that God is good. Whether we [00:34:00] understand him to be good or not, his goodness never changes. Yeah. God is good. If a person is in a marriage that has challenges and perhaps there's no sex in that marriage, God is good for a person who is single, who longs to be married. God is good for a person who is being abandoned or divorced and looking to rebuild their lives and. All of those situations give us an opportunity to draw closer to God Video: and John: to God's love and care and compassion and healing in our lives. So, so I have the boundaries a little bit like, um, fence around a school, play yard, a a school yard, a playground. They are there so that people can have enjoyment and fun and life. You a a kid is not always aware that the fence is there, but it's there to stop something harmful happening. It's there for [00:35:00] our benefit, therefore our safety. Yeah. And um, and that's why I think God places boundaries around sex because it is, as Kirsten said, it's such a powerful thing. Video: Yeah. That John: actually to make sure that we have it, uh, sex in a way that, um, has a positive on. Ourself and our spouse rather than in a way that creates damage and fallout. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, you, you alluded it to this in your talk, Kirsten, but people may have a view of the Christian Church that, well, we are all a bit like prudish maybe, or a bit standoffish or haven't got much to say on this. But actually obviously your talk shows that's not the case and that actually, um, but it sounds like God's sort of got safety parameters, if you like, or, um, like you say John boundaries, but they're there for a good reason. [00:36:00] So, um, yeah, I, I just love that. There's another thing I'm just looking at. I wrote stuff down as you were talking, um, oh yeah, you, you, you did a quote Kirsten. So, um, it's from a book that you read by Rob Bell, I think you said, and it said. We are not animals or angels, but we are human. And I was like, wow, I've never heard that quote before. So what, can you expand a little bit more on that for us as well? What Rob was trying to get at for us to understand? Yeah. Kirsten: Quite a few years ago now, sex, God. And um, in preparing for the talk, I went back into it to read through it and um, there's some good stuff in there. It might the same that this whole idea that we can separate ourselves into angels where we don't even have any connection to our physical bodies and, um, the sense of things that we enjoy, food and, um, and sex and everything like that, that we'd consider Yeah. Um, that we, we that aside, [00:37:00] yeah. Or we take the opposite view, which. Historically, maybe people in the church have done and we become this sort of Victorian prudish, um, right. Uh, behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Or we refer to the other extreme, which is one of, um, yeah. Animal based urges and instincts and, um, them being satisfied is our highest goal. Yeah. And we're neither of these things. We're somewhere in the middle. We're human created in God's image. Yeah. Um, and this gift of sex that, like we've said, I mean, is so powerful and strong, um, and yet needs, therefore needs, boundaries and parameters put in place. So we're gonna flush as individuals in, in marriage, um, and, and not it not be our downfall and not be something that tears us apart. Rachel: Oh, right. Yeah. That's really, it's a really helpful explanation of it because I think you're right. You know, we've got, we are humans, aren't we? And. It, it, it made me think a [00:38:00] little bit as well as Jesus living as a human. So don't wanna sound controversial asking this, but do you think Jesus would've been tempted or had feelings or desires at some point, but that he had to manage himself? What do you think? John: I, I, I think undoubtedly right. I think that, um, we, we often say, don't we, when we're talking about how to help individuals or couples in counseling that humans are sexual beings, um, tribal, not, you know, we have a God-given drive towards reproduction. Yeah. So, for example, I hear about like, I don't know, a guy and a woman that, uh, having, I don't know, a meal out together, but they're married to other people. You think that's foolish in one sense because. There is a sexual attraction in humans that is God-given a natural uhhuh. Um, Jesus was fully human, [00:39:00] and the Bible to say was tempted in every way. Yeah. And, and so that's the, that's the animal instinct to be that as humans, we have free will, but also the power to say no to those urges. And we celebrate Jesus undoubtedly as the only person to have ever lived the whole of his life as a sinless man. Yeah. Adam and Adam and Eve started that way, but they gave into those, um, drives towards sin and experiencing consequences of it. So, um, you know, everyone's a little bit on a spectrum when it comes to sexuality and sexual attraction. Some people might consider themselves to have high sex drives. Some people might consider them to have low sex drives. I think the idea to say that Jesus never had sexual attraction is to make Jesus less than fully human [00:40:00] right. And fully human. As well as fully God. Rachel: So does that mean that we can ask God to help us in our feelings and our drives and our retractions? Do you think we can ask him to be involved in that in our lives John: more than that? Yeah. It means he's deeply interested in us asking him, right? 'cause he wants help us because it goes on to say, when it says he was tempted in every way. Yeah. He's not unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. So I think when we, you know, have you ever asked someone to help you with something that they'd never struggled with and you feel a little bit looked down on, a little bit belittled. Yeah. Video: Yeah. John: Jesus did not like that with us. Right? Yeah. He's actually willing to help us in our weakness because he, to experience the challenges that we experience Rachel: and do you know what? That really encourages me because I think [00:41:00] in our culture, generally in the uk, probably in the west, dare I say it, it feels like it's highly sexualized. If you like it. It feels like it's talked about everywhere, almost in the media, in I feel ever so sorry. Sometimes for famous people, you know, like their lives are plastered across social media around this topic and it can almost feel like you're bombarded. So I think. It's a great encouragement for us that we can bring this area of our lives to God and he cares very much about it. I, I, I feel it is really encouraging for us, isn't it? And yeah, yeah. John: Said in discipleship, in mentoring, I've often said it's a really powerful Prayer to pray in a moment of temptation to say, Jesus, I am feeling tempted. Holy Spirit, would you come and comfort me? Because so often those [00:42:00] drivers that lead us into behavior that we don't want to have, uh, of form of trying to meet our own needs and to comfort ourselves and the Holy Spirit's promised to comfort us. Rachel: Wonderful. Wonderful. That's fantastic. And such an encouragement and such a help. And I love that having an example of how to pray sometimes. 'cause you can't always find the words, can you? So that's, that's brilliant. Um, now I wrote something else down and it's gone out my head. I'm just checking the time. Um, the little okay. Just, just, it's a big question. So obviously we haven't got ages to go into it, but what if we've had experiences in our lives that haven't been good in this area? I think you've partly answered it by, you know, when we get temptations or feelings that we wanna act upon, but what if things have been done to us that weren't right in this whole area of sex? Or if we've done [00:43:00] something and now we look back and regret it? Can God make a difference for us there? And I know you talk, Kirsten, you said, you know, seek out professional help. So you have addressed this partly already. If, if you feel like as we are talking, something's coming up for you personally, that you need. To maybe talk to someone about, but you know, is God interested in those parts of our lives that we might even feel ashamed about? Kirsten: Yeah. I mean, at the beginning, Rach, you, you said about safeguarding and, um, a space to put intimate details, um, in the chat or anything like that because Rachel: Yeah, it's out there. Kirsten: Um, and so if that was the case, I mean, even before we, we sat down today to, to, to get on this, um, we talked about what we'd be prepared to talk about because it's private, it's personal. Yeah. Um, and it's everyone to know about, um, that aspect of your life. John: Yeah. And Kirsten: so I think we talk, I mentioned the idea of professional help. Yeah. It's not a [00:44:00] case of sharing with everyone, um, the things that you struggle with or where you've been hurt Yeah. Um, in the past. Um, and so to find professional help, someone that you can speak to, to, to talk about those issues so that you can move through them. Um, but certainly it's a case of it shouldn't be pushed aside and not dealt with. Yeah. These are important aspects of people's lives. God cares about us as individuals. Yeah. And he wants to help us be whole. Yeah. And, and John: the truth is, we, we, we are Bible believing people. And the Bible clearly says there's no sin that Jesus can't forgive. And we can go to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but that's simply a rejection of Jesus's ability to forgive. So, um, I think anything that we bring to Jesus, we can receive forgiveness for. Yeah. And I, I'm talking more in terms of si perhaps things that we have done Yeah. Where we have boundaries as opposed to what have been done to us. Yes. Um, I believe there's healing [00:45:00] and that may take a journey and there may be layers to that healing. And we, we, for people who've been walking into that healing, that's their testament story, but also. Forgiveness, and this is who our God is, that we, we do make mistakes. And someone once said to me, be a good failure. Be good at failing. If you do fall into sin, then don't wallow in it for days, weeks, and months. Separating yourself from God. Bring it to God. Yeah. And say to him, look, uh, I've done this and, and I ask for your forgiveness and ask for your cleansing. Yeah. And then forward from that knowing that when we confess it's one job, one verse nine, when we confess our sins, it's faithful and just enough. Forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And so, um, receive that. And, and that's a really powerful way to live. And whenever it comes up in our mind, all of us will have things where, um, it pops up in our mind about, oh, that [00:46:00] thing that I did 30 years ago or whatever, and, and God's like, what thing I forgave. And I forgot it and it's as far as the east is from the west from me. Yeah. And that's what, what we're talking about here is immensely good news. Yeah. That, um, no God's healing and forgiveness. Rachel: Yeah. Wonderful. And you've just quoted one of my favorite verses ever as far as the east is from the west because like you can't get further apart, can you, from the east to the west? Like they couldn't be more polar opposite, could they? So God is saying that's how far it's gone. And um, yeah, I mean I, I know for my life I've been really blessed being part of a church where there are particular people that are really gifted as well in helping to bring God's truth into a situation where there might be a lot of shame or guilt or upset. So, um, [00:47:00] and equally professional help as well. Um, all for that, I just think. There are people that have trained in the area of recovery for people that can be really, really helpful. So it is wonderful, isn't it? It's, it, it, it feels like we would say, yeah, go on. John: So we would say in our church context, we have safeguarding parameters in place for Prayer ministry. Yeah. We just to where not true this is going out and people watch this in all sorts of places, in all sorts of contexts. Yeah. We just, there have been times where people have shared sexual experiences, even within the church context, and that has been used by others to leading to abuse. Uh, so that's why I think customers really stressing the professional thing. Yeah. We totally believe in the power of Prayer and the power of industry, but I would encourage people to, um, receive that in places that have those policies Rachel: and John: procedures in place. Fantastic. I think that's, [00:48:00] Rachel: yeah. Oh, it's great, isn't it? 'cause it's like that sense of transparency and openness in the right way for the person so they feel safe. Um, that, you know, we know what our limits are and then sometimes we have to say no, it's right for a professional to be involved for that person. So it's, that's wonderful. Okay. Um, one last question before we finish. You spoke about love languages, so I know what they're, but not everyone does. And, um, how can we find out more? John: I, I think you can actually just Google love languages. I can't remember the name of the guy who wrote the book, but it is a best seller. Gary. It's Gary Chapman. Yeah. Video: Yeah. John: And it's like we tend to want to show love to someone in the way we like to receive it. So I know for Kirsten, the way that she likes to receive love is through acts of kindness. That's one of the five love languages [00:49:00] and through words of affirmation, right? So it's really important that I express love to her in a way that she experiences love and vice versa. And you know, when we both used to teach sex education, one of the questions that would come up quite often is, you know, sex before marriage is important. People would say, you people, because you've gotta find compatibility. How do you know you've got that Hollywood spark until you've tried it? Right? And we would, no, actually that's not what it's about. It's about, um, committing first to create a safety, which actually says, I am utterly committed to you, irrespective of what sex is like for us. Yeah. Now let's serve one another to find a way of. Um, pleasing one another and expressing love to one another. Um, it's about intimacy more than intensity. And I think that's Scott's pattern. And that's, I think why love languages [00:50:00] feed into, it's not about what I want. You not have said about like, you can't look to the other person to meet your, your needs, but we're called to serve one another. Yeah. And as best we can meet that person's need. Yeah. And that's true of all of life. So it's gotta be true of sex as well. Rachel: Yeah, totally. And I love the Gary Chapman. You can do like a, a really simple online tests, but it, it can apply to every single type of relationship. So whether it's for your friendships, for parenting, bringing it into your marriage, um, it, it's a level of understanding, isn't it? Um, about what works for that person. So, um. If you've got a child that responds well to healthy cuddles or a good, you know, yeah. Ways that will build them up in that way. Or a child that responds to words of affirmation as well. So it can apply to all your relational parts of your life, can't it as well? Kirsten: [00:51:00] Absolutely. I think, I think there's five love languages. Yeah. Um, and I wouldn't wanna shoot myself on the foot and say I only have one, because I think there's gifts in there, which is always a good one, even though it's not my main love language. Yeah. Interesting. John: Interestingly, it's more to do with where they're absent for us. So for me it's quality time and for Kirsten, um, Kirsten is very happy for me not to be around. Uh, I can be around much. Rachel: Surely not John: trying to find a balance that serves one another and meets one another's needs. Rachel: Yeah. And again, then I wonder if, when we bring it back to marriage and intimacy. You know, if you're working on those bits as well, then it really helps your level of understanding of each other, doesn't it? Um, in all aspects of, of that as well. Oh, John, Kirsten, I feel like, go on John. You were gonna say something else? Go on. 'cause it'll be good. Um, John: it's because my wife's [00:52:00] done the preaching and normally it's me who gets to do it. You can't see the Bible is just this list of rules and this just of dos and do not Yeah. It, it's about God's pattern for thriving in life. And that's why people get so hung up on, you know, people want a sex talk about six things you're not allowed to do in sex and marriage, and six things that you are allowed to do. Right. And really, if you put the work in. For intimacy and communication. And if you take that deeper underpinning narrative of the Bible of love expressed in service and intimacy, which is the definition of love, then those sorts of questions become far less relevant. Then the sorts of things that you can navigate together as a couple, and the answer we might come up with might not be the answer that another couple come up with, but then within [00:53:00] those, uh, boundaries, uh, that got put in place. Rachel: Yeah, it, I, I feel like we could just go on and on and it, but, but thank you. Because I think what's coming across clearly is the supportive and the caring that goes alongside us. Talking about a, a topic around, you know, talking about sex and what God wants and what is, what is the best and. And if we've experienced something that we would say that was not the best for me, God is still committed to us and cares about us enough that he can bring healing and restoration into our lives as well. So it's just fabulous. I love it. But we are gonna have to stop, but, so I just wanna thank you both so very much. And again, Kirsten, thank you for probably the hours that you put into preparing for that talk. Uh, you know, honestly, it was fantastic. [00:54:00] And if you are watching this during the week, then you know, please do messaging and let us know what you thought. And maybe if there's anything more you want Prayer or support for, then again messaging privately and let us know. So John and Kirsten, thank you. Massive thanks. John: Nice chatting to you. H Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And enjoy your evening. John: Thank you. Rachel: Yeah. Okay. So we're nearly at the end of Crowd Church today and um, next week we're gonna have a talk from Esther Norris, but that's actually not actually her surname anymore, is it? Video: What is it Richard? Rachel: Um, yeah, Richard. Have I got it right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. So the wonderful Esther is gonna be talking about trusting God, I think, I hope I've got that right. So, um, we look forward to that. And, um, as always, thank you for staying with us friends online. Wonderful. Hi to Matt [00:55:00] Nicola. Uh, and previous people that are are, are other. Matt Petes. Tracy. Yeah. It's lovely. Thank you for being with us live as well. And what, what was that? And worship What? Video: Yeah, worship song. Now Rachel: we're gonna have a worship song. Sorry, we're gonna have a worship song now. So, um, we look forward to that and have a great week everyone.