What does the Bible say about suffering? That's this week's question for our online church service. It's a huge topic, so come and join the conversation as we look at questions and topics such as:Where is God in my suffering?Why would God allow this suffering in my life or in my world if there was a God?Can there be hope in the midst of suffering?
01Where Is God When Life Falls Apart?
It is the question that has been asked since the beginning of time. If God is all-loving and all-powerful, why does suffering exist? For some, the presence of pain in the world is enough to dismiss God entirely. For others, it is the very thing that drives them deeper into faith. So what does the Bible actually say about suffering — and where is God in the middle of it?
In this episode, John Harding tackles one of the biggest and most emotive questions anyone can ask, drawing on theology, philosophy, personal experience, and a trip to the Congo that changed his perspective entirely.
02The Argument That Sounds Convincing
John lays out the common objection clearly. If God is truly loving and there is suffering, then he cannot be powerful — because if he were powerful, he would stop it. If God is truly powerful and there is suffering, then he cannot be loving — because a loving God would intervene. Therefore, such a God cannot exist.
It is an argument that has been around for as long as people have been thinking about God. And John is honest about it: "Logically, intellectually, philosophically, I don't think it's a very good argument." But he acknowledges that this problem is rarely played out at the level of logic. "It's an argument that really gets played out at the emotional level — the personal, the experiential level. That's why it's such a challenging topic."
03Two Responses Christians Tend to Make
The first response centres on free will. God created humans distinct from the rest of creation — moral beings with the freedom to make their own choices. That freedom is what separates us from animals. It gives us the capacity for great good, but by the same token, the capacity for great evil.
"God is not responsible for our suffering," John says. "Humans misuse the gift of free will. We make choices that harm ourselves and that harm others."
This takes us back to Genesis and the story of Adam and Eve. Through that first sin — choosing to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than the tree of life — catastrophic consequences entered the world. Pain, sickness, ageing, death, and environmental damage all followed. We now live in a broken world as broken people.
The obvious counter-question is: why did God give humans free will at all? John's answer is straightforward. The whole reason there is something rather than nothing is so that something could freely choose to be in relationship with its creator. Without free will, we would be robots, incapable of truly loving God. The risk was essential.
The second response is that God ultimately works through suffering to bring about something good. It is the grit in the oyster that becomes a pearl, the pressure on coal that becomes a diamond, the tearing of muscle through weight training that makes it grow stronger.
John quotes Romans 5:3 — "We can boast in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance produces character, and character produces hope."
He used to illustrate this to his A-level students with a simple demonstration. He would ask who likes cake. Every hand went up. He would call four volunteers to the front and give them the raw ingredients — flour, whisked eggs, butter, and sugar — then say, "Tuck in, lads." We all want the end product, but we do not enjoy the individual ingredients. We want hope and freedom, but we do not like the perseverance part. We certainly do not like the suffering part. But these are the essential ingredients of a transformed life.
04A Trip That Changed Everything
The most powerful section of the talk comes from John's personal experience. He describes his first trip to the Democratic Republic of Congo, to the Kivu region, where his church was working to rehabilitate boy soldiers.
The situation was horrific. Boys as young as twelve, taken from their families, dehumanised through drugs and rape, used as cannon fodder in a conflict fuelled by western demand for diamonds and coltan. Women raped as a weapon of war. Decades of suffering, largely ignored by the outside world.
And yet, what John found alongside the suffering was hope. "Many beautiful Christians who by our standards had so little, and yet they were working tirelessly to rescue those boy soldiers, to rehabilitate them, to educate them."
What struck him most was the perspective. No one there was asking, "Where is God in our suffering?" That question made no sense to them. Instead, they were thanking God for his presence with them in their suffering. Their focus was not on the pain but on how God was helping them endure it.
"They had discovered the deep and profound truth," John says, "that when you are at that point in life where Jesus is all that you have got — that's the point when you realise that Jesus is all you need."
He came back to England, back to the classroom, back to teaching the philosophy of suffering to bright seventeen-year-old boys. And he told them: "This idea of 'where is God in our suffering?' — to me it feels like an indulgence of the modern western world."
05A Sparrow Does Not Fall Without the Father
John turns to a small but significant verse — Matthew 10:29. Jesus says: "Not one sparrow falls to the ground without the Father."
Bible translators have struggled with this verse because the literal Greek simply says "without the Father" — no verb attached. Translators typically add "knowing" to make it read smoothly. But John suggests the literal version makes perfect sense as it stands.
"God is so present with his suffering creation that he draws close to each and every sparrow in their final moments," he says. "Where is God? He is most close to us in our suffering."
Jesus goes on to say: "How much more valuable are you to God than a humble sparrow?"
The word "compassionate" itself tells the story. It comes from two Latin words — passio, meaning to suffer, and com, meaning alongside. God is compassionate. He is the co-sufferer, the one who suffers alongside.
06John's Mother in A&E
John shares something deeply personal from the night before the talk. He had spent the night in accident and emergency with his eighty-seven-year-old mother, who was in extreme pain. He felt helpless. He asked if there was anything he could do.
"Pray for me," she said.
He prayed for her there in the hospital cubicle. The pain did not immediately leave — it wore off as powerful drugs kicked in. But she said something that stayed with him: "John, how do people go through this sort of thing without the Lord in their lives?"
07The Choice We All Have
John's conclusion is not neat or tidy. He does not pretend to have all the answers.
"This world throws up so many big questions, so many mysteries — stuff I've tried to study and understand academically and, if I'm entirely honest, still don't really understand."
But he is clear on this: we cannot seem to escape suffering, pain, and hardship in this life. What we can choose is how we respond to it. We can walk through suffering with God or without God. We can invite his presence into our pain or walk through it alone.
"Draw close to him," John says. "We call that worship. Draw close through his word. Draw close to community. Invest in other believers. And you will experience him carrying you through."
Maybe God will give breakthrough. Maybe the suffering will last a lifetime. But one day, in heaven, there will be no more tears, no more sorrow, no more pain, no more death. Suffering will be over forever.
What would it mean for you to invite God into the hardest thing you are facing right now?
Topics in this talk
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well good afternoon good afternoon and welcome to crowd church with myself and the newly returned anna how we doing i'm well thank you yeah when you say newly returned do you mean it back to england yeah yeah yeah i say it's not been that long since i lasted last time it was it was 1996. um no no not at all as in uh yes you were away on holiday uh looking tens looking at peace yeah we went to spain for a week during half term which was lovely and then this week we've had a short week back started back to school and work on wednesday so it's been a nice short week easy easy intro easy intro and we were talking before we went live you managed to escape all of the chaos which is current at a lot of uk airports i did we were lucky i think liverpool airport where we flew out of wasn't too wasn't too affected so yeah very lucky with that it's a beautiful thing it's a beautiful thing so if you have just tuned in we are not a holiday talk show no not at all we are an online church uh we're a digital church uh we are here for those who might not see the point of church as well as the folks who maybe like anna and myself have been around church for hui uh as they say um i'm not gonna ask who's been in church longer you or me annex i think that would be unfair uh especially on me if i'm honest with you but welcome to church greatly you're here do say hi uh in the comments if this is your first time with us be great for you to come say hi uh and if this is not your first time with us say hi as well i can see matt in the comments busy as always uh so come say hi to matt come and say hello to uh whoever else is in there i think john farrington is moderating the crowd church comments so he'll be he'll be in the stream as well uh any questions thoughts comments do leave them below and i think if i press this button here magic happens oh yes look at that yes uh that's a website [Laughter] no i don't think anyone could ever accuse us of that and if you would like to know more about crowd church you can head on over to our website www.crowd.church or go to instagram or facebook at crowdchurch we are there as well as on youtube and you know what you can get all of the back catalogue as they'd like to say on podcasts i've discovered uh you can see all of our back catalogue uh on youtube and on our website as well so let's got that out of the way anna what's coming up today so today we're looking at what does the bible say about suffering and we've got the lovely john harding speaking um so yeah that's coming up soon and um yeah well also have some conversation street where we'll discuss what we think about what he has to say afterwards and yeah lots of banter i'm sure no doubt from people like mac crew no doubt yeah yeah and the banter too it's um yeah uh although uh we have to obviously i mean it's not a it's a bit of a heavy topic uh for today isn't it what does the bible say about suffering so i i don't know i don't know whether how the banter will flow on this one but um no we'll wait and see we'll wait and see how it goes he's already he's already abusing you though he says radiance on the right bearded ruffian on the left radio what is it radiance on the right bearded ruffian on the left uh i hope uh because i'm not being funny but on the screen that i have because of the way it was on the live stream i'm on the right and you're on the left but i know i hope which is why when i always age people you know we used to put the phone number on or the website just point to it and people were always struggling because it's back different so uh yes uh so i'm hoping that matt sees it differently because definitely uh i you know i'll take the bearded ruffian uh i've definitely been called worse that's for sure so you are yeah well radiance uh i'm assuming is you and uh from the from the holiday the holiday radiance yeah well let's hope so yeah yeah so as you have said correctly we have got the good old john harding uh talking about suffering i'm laughing because i've just noticed the comment uh matt cruz put in i'm suffering for a decade of man united losses i'm not quite sure matt that's the suffering that john harding is going to talk about yeah i don't say well i'm not sure we have much that we can help you with on that oh it's brilliant i love it well let's get yeah we can do the banter now so let's get it out of the way as i'm not sure how much we can help you love it so if you are here with us for the first time uh here at crowd church the way it kind of works is this we're gonna do a talk uh which john harding has recorded john harding's one of the team here at crowd he's the senior pastor of frontline church which crowd church is affiliated to he's going to do a talk it's going to last 20 minutes because it's john harding talk he's usually bang on time uh so yeah after that talk uh anna will be back to introduce the worship and then as anna said we're going to have conversation street so if you have any questions uh anything you want us to talk about in conversation street any stories you want to share any thoughts any ideas of your own any experiences whack them all in the comments because we would love to hear from you and we will try and get around to all of those if we can we we nev we never answer everybody's questions but we do get to quite a few of them and we'd love it if if you just through your questions comments thoughts ideas in there as well so andre have i missed anything i don't think so oh that'd be a first if i'm honest with you it would be a first so without further ado let's uh hear from the right reverend john harding here we go what does the bible say about suffering wow well that is a big topic isn't it it's an emotive sensitive question because i suppose what we're really asking here is what does the bible say about my suffering what does the bible say about the suffering that someone i love is going through even now maybe you are even thinking well where is god in my suffering or even is there a god why would god allow this suffering in my life for in my world if there was a god and so for some people the presence of suffering in the world in their own lives causes them to question the existence of god they say things like well how can all loving or powerful god allow suffering in the world they don't see the presence of suffering in the world as compatible with the presence of god or at least with the presence of the god as described in the bible they say well if god is truly loving and they're suffering then he can't be powerful because if he was powerful he would stop that suffering or if god is truly powerful and they're suffering in the world then well then he can't be truly loving or he would stop it therefore there can't be such a god in a world as ours because there is suffering and that's an argument that's been around well since the beginning of time really uh logically intellectually philosophically i don't think it's a very good argument but this problem this mystery of reconciling and matching up the god of the bible with the presence and existence of suffering well it is rarely played out at the level of logic or reason it's an argument that really gets played out at the emotional level the personal the experiential level that's why it's such a challenging topic but i do think the bible offers a compelling response to the mystery of suffering now traditionally christians have said well yes you can totally have an all-good all-loving god the sort of god described throughout the bible a god who is all-powerful a god who is not absent from the world a god that is not unaware of human suffering such a god is totally compatible with the human experience with human suffering now as christians we tend to respond to this problem in two ways firstly christians tend to say that god allows suffering in the world because suffering is a necessary outcome of free will god created humans in his image distinct from the rest of creation distinct from the animal kingdom because humans are given freedom autonomy the ability to make their own decisions the ability to direct their own lives and make their own choices it's what separates us from the animal kingdom we have become moral beings beings capable of great good but by the same virtue beings beings capable of great evil so put some simply god is not responsible therefore for our suffering humans are humans misuse the gift of free will we make choices that harm ourselves and that harm others and this takes us right back to adam and eve the story we read in the bible in genesis 1 to 3 in the garden paradise a place of perfection no sickness no disease no pain no death through that first sin their choice to take and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than to take from the tree of life that's where they went wrong in disobeying god they adam and eve brought catastroph free global consequences into this world bringing the first sin into a perfect creation impacted every single aspect of creation pain sickness aging ultimately death entered into the world environmental damage now entered into the world a world now capable of floods and earthquakes and so there's a very real sense that it is us it is humans who brought suffering into an all-loving all-powerful god's perfect creation and we now live in that corrupt broken world as a corrupt broken people and so we suffer but then of course uh people will say to that argument of free will well why did create humans like that why did god give humans free will it's like giving a machine gun to a kid just look at the potential damage that is done through that action but of course for us as christians that risk that god took in giving that gift of free will that was utterly essential and worthy because god only created the world for humans god only created humans for relationship with himself the whole reason why there is something rather than nothing is so that that something could freely willingly choose to be in relationship with its creator we are given free will so that we have the capacity to love and to experience love with free will we have the capacity to harm others of course but without free will we'd simply be animals or robots incapable of truly loving god our creator so free will is a powerful response to the mystery of suffering the second response that christians tend to make to this problem of suffering in a world of an all-loving or powerful god is that god ultimately uses suffering and god works through suffering to bring about something good something positive it's the idea that there is a purpose to the suffering we experience that suffering drives human development and to some extent i imagine that all of us will have experienced this dynamic a bit like the grit in the oyster that becomes a pearl or the pressure on the coal that becomes a diamond or the tearing of the muscle through the weight training the lifting of weights the muscle tears but it causes it to grow stronger as a result all of us will have had experiences that have made us stronger kinder wiser people and the bible says romans chapter 5 verse 3 that we can boast in our suffering we can boast in our suffering and glory in our suffering when we know that suffering produces perseverance perseverance produces character and character produces hope and it goes on to say that hope frees us from shame now i used to be a school teacher and towards the end of my teaching career i taught mainly 17 and 18 year old boys bright boys i taught the philosophy of religion and we would unpack this mystery of suffering together and when i used to use this verse from romans i would start by asking the boys in the class who likes cake who likes cake they'd all put their hands up and then i'd go four volunteers four lads out to the front ready for their cake and i would give one of the boys flower the other whisked eggs the other butter and the other sugar and then i'd say well tuck in lads start eating you see we all like cake but that does not mean that we will enjoy the ingredients that make up cake and that's a little bit like this verse from romans we all want hope and freedom but we don't necessarily enjoy the character formation part and we really don't like the perseverance part having to keep moving forwards and life is tough we just want breakthrough now and we certainly don't like the suffering part but these things are the essential agreed ingredients that lead us towards a transformed life the ingredients that make us stronger kind of wiser suffering has the power to be transformative but then of course you know people will say well you know john if god is all loving and all powerful and if suffering is for a purpose it's meant to growers and transformers then people will say well then why does god allow excessive or pointless suffering or why do some people not grow and develop through their suffering or couldn't god have created a world where we grow and develop through pleasure and not pain these are some of the objections that people raise just going through those questions and objections really takes me back to being in the classroom as a philosophy teacher all those years ago and i remember clearly the first time that i went to congo to the drc to the kivus and i was a school teacher at the time i was helping to build links between my local church frontline my school and the work that a church was doing on the congo ugandan border in order to rehabilitate boy soldiers i've been just a desperate situation uh horrific one fueled by western consumerism fueled by our desire for diamonds and coltan mining for mobile phones boys of maybe even just 12 taken from their families dehumanized through drugs and rape used as cannon fodder in a conflict that has been going on and ignored for decades in this region of the kivus where we work where we surf just horrific suffering and yet what i found there alongside the suffering alongside the poverty alongside the conflicts what i found there was hope just many many beautiful christians who by our standards had so little and yet they were working tirelessly to rescue those boy soldiers to rehabilitate them to educate them they were working with women who'd been raped as a weapon of war they were giving them um a refuge a safe place to live they were giving them training and counseling and what i found in that place for the first time was a completely different perspective on my perspective on suffering i found there that no one was asking the question of where is god in our suffering that made no sense to them rather they were praying and thanking god for his presence with them in that place of suffering their focus was on not the suffering but on how god was helping them to endure their suffering they discovered the deep and profound truth that when you are at that point in life where jesus is all that you have got in life well that's the point when you realize that jesus is all you need in life and i came back from that trip that first time i went there back into the classroom back into this selective bicycle teaching this philosophy module on god and the problem of evil and suffering and i remember saying uh to the boys in my class boys this idea of where is god in our suffering to me it just feels like an indulgence of the modern western world these people that i've met in congo and were building relationship they weren't philosophically pondering on the question of how could an all loving or powerful god allow suffering in the world they were experiencing god and encountering god drawing on god and on his presence to sustain them in the hardship of each day they were forming communities of faith that we call churches they were forming communities the served one another and met one another's needs and shared the resources that they had they knew that suffering was producing perseverance perseverance producing character boy did they have character and character was producing and they held onto you know just last night i spent the night in accident and emergency the emergency room having taken my 87 year old mother into that place due to extreme extreme pain i mean she was struggling i've never seen her in so much pain and i said to a mum i just feel so helpless here as we're waiting is there anything i can do for you anything i can get for you she just said pray for me pray for me and so i prayed for her there in the hospital cubicle and honestly i'm not sure that prayer made a great deal of difference to her pain the pain remained and started to wear off as powerful drugs kicked in but she said to me she said john how do people go through this sort of thing without the lord in their lives how do they go through this sort of thing without the presence of god with them this world in which we live it throws up so many big questions so many mystery stuff that i can't get my head around stuff that i've tried to study and understand academically and stuff if i'm entirely honest with you i still don't really understand i still don't have any answers to but it seems to me that is pretty certain in this life we can't seem to escape suffering pain and hardship but we do get to decide how we respond to it we do get to decide if we go through our suffering with god or without god we do get to choose if we're going to walk through that pain and invite god's presence to be with us in that place or if we walk through it angry at god maybe even rejecting god and denying god there's this little verse in the bible the gospels the words of jesus recorded and spoken by jesus in greek recorded in greek and this verse causes all sorts of trouble for bible translators over the centuries it's matthew 10 29 and jesus says not one sparrow falls to the ground without the father without god knowing not one sparrow falls to the ground without god the father knowing and the reason that bible translators have struggled to translate this verse into english over the centuries is because if you look at the original literal greek words of jesus jesus literally says without the father that's it and so the bible translators tend to add um the knowing bit without the father knowing to try and make sense of what jesus is saying here about god but you know i think this makes perfect sense just as it is not one sparrow force of the ground without the father because i really believe that jesus is responding to this suffering and i'll tell you where god is in our suffering father god is so present with his suffering creation that he draws close to each and every sparrow in their final moments where is god he is most close to us in our suffering and jesus goes on to say how much more valuable are you to god than a humble sparrow god wants to draw close to you in your he wants to sustain you in your suffering with his presence one of the most ancient and frequent songs of worship of the bible is the simple refrain the lord is gracious and compassionate god is gracious and compassionate god is compassionate he is compassionate it's a beautiful word it's from two latin words passion meaning to suffer and com the prefix meaning alongside like companion god is compassionate he is the co-sufferer the one who suffers alongside his suffering and so we do have a choice invite him into your hardship invite him into your pain invite him into your suffering ask him to draw close to you draw close to him we call that worship draw close through his word the bible draw close to community invest in other believers and you will experience him carrying you through maybe he will give you breakthrough in that suffering maybe you will have to endure that suffering for the rest of your life but we know this for sure that one day we will see him in heaven we will be transformed into his likeness paradise eid and restored a place that is described as one with no more tears or sorrow or pain or grief or death in that moment we know that suffering will be over forever amen oh man welcome back everyone so that was absolutely fantastic that talk from john jason just so much rich quality content that we can unpack in a minute and but first of all we're just going to have a bit of time of worship and reflection and we're going to play a song now called when i survey the wondrous cross so just take a moment listen to the words sing along if you want to and then do post your questions and stop thinking about what we've just heard when i surveyed wondrous crowd on which the prince of glory died my richest game i counted lost poor content on all my pride lord christ my god all the vain things them to his mind see from his head his hands his feet sorrow did such love me thorns come richard thank you for the cross i thank you for the cross my lord thank you for nature my too small divine demands my soul my life my own thank you for the cross side love you for the cross i love you for love you for the crown welcome back welcome back to conversation street with myself and with anna we are going to get into all your questions and comments uh feel free to write them as we go through if you haven't done so already or if we say something that you just need a bit more clarity go ahead um it's quite a well anna john said it right at the start he said of this talk this is an emotive topic this is very emotionally led i am aware of this and usually i'm trying to be sensitive i'm not normally that good at that um and so i i appreciate that actually for some people watching this this is very emotive and this is very difficult and very very hard i guess why why do you think that is well i think john said it really clearly at the start didn't they like it it's personal like if you've got an area of suffering in your life or someone that you love or close to you has then it's really personal and emotional it's all tied up with how you feel about god it's all those questions like how can god be good and how can he love me when he's letting me go through this or when he's letting someone like love go through this you know whether that's you know someone being ill like john talked about his mum didn't they or you're talking about a much bigger scale like you know global poverty in different parts of the world or um but yeah often it it's really personal so for me you know it would be questions like how can god love me when you know we've not been able to have the family we wanted and we've lost babies and how can how can a love and god let that happen to us um so yeah it is it's really personal and it is really sensitive and i think that's why it's it's difficult to talk about these things but i'm really glad that um that crowd church we're doing that because i think it's so important i think it's really easy for christians to kind of shy away from the difficult questions and the difficult subjects um i love the fact that we don't do that hey yeah we we you know getting blinded by some now and i love the fact we don't do that though i love the fact that we delve into the difficult questions questions we're not sure how to answer and we make space for people to ask those questions and to explore their faith in a real way yeah yeah it's interesting isn't it and um and you i mean you said on your instagram post earlier on actually that we aren't sure what to do with people's pain um and it's it's i think it's really interesting because you think about this question well where is god in the suffering or why does god allow suffering you are you are there's two people involved in that conversation the first person is asking the question and like john said that's often from a place of pain they've experienced or everyone's experienced it or it's just a simple way to dismiss a conversation maybe um but then you on the other hand you've got the person being asked the question uh and because it is tricky because it is a motive and because we are not sure what to do with people's pain it it becomes one of those questions i think for the longest time we've as christians have avoided because um spoiler alert there's no straightforward answer right there just there just isn't and it's okay not to know all the answers uh i think it's probably worth saying that right at the start um there is pain and there is people's pain and and and how to handle that is not always straight forward um did you i mean you know obviously i say obviously for those who don't know you can go back and listen to anna's story you've talked a lot about the miscarriage stuff yeah that you and andy went through did you find it when you were going through that was it the people that were talking to you did they find it hard to know what to do with you how to respond with you how to talk with you during those times of pain sometimes i think so i mean i think the best thing people did and close friends did a lot was just listen and i think people want your presence and their pain as much as they want answers you know people want you to sit with them in the pain and i suppose that touches on what john was saying as well about god okay sufferer and you know he's compassionate and he's literally sits with us in our pain and i think that's what people are really wanting they're not necessarily wanting to fix it all or to have all the theological answers because you know even clever people like john can do so much in a talk and what he just said was brilliant but it only goes so far in explaining away people's pain i don't think he can just explain people's experiences away um and often i don't think that's necessarily what people want like for me i feel like the question of why did this happen to us is a much less important question then so what now what do i do with this what next and where do i go from here and i think people that can sit with you and listen and help you so find hope for the future and help you to find healing and help you to move forward and find that so what now and i think that's that's so important and i think that's kind of what jesus modeled isn't it he yeah he did he did sit with people in their pain he did um he didn't look away he didn't avoid it um so yeah it's an interesting one isn't it because one of the most unique things about the christian faith at the heart of its message at the heart of the christian message is a belief that the creator god actually partook of the suffering on our behalf that actually god himself suffered and we would argue unfairly and unjustly and undeservedly but he chose to do that on our behalf and he got involved very very personally and it's quite a unique message you don't hear that uh usually in other people's faiths that actually um god got involved in the suffering and that's part of his redemptive plan isn't it really and um but that requires i think you i mean you touched on it it requires an eternal perspective doesn't it sometimes when we think about these things yeah it does we're still you know we're still sort of living in the middle aren't we of the story like as john said there was the beginning the world was perfect and then sin entered into the world and even though we kind of live in the knowledge that jesus has died and the cross has happened we don't live in the completion of the story yet we're still sort of in those middle days where we're waiting for all of creation to still be redeemed and brought back into perfection and redeemed into what god always planned for it and obviously sin death pain disease none of these things were part of the plan and so we still live in a world where that exists even though we're kind of hoping for and looking forward to a future that's that's free of these things but but it is it's it is a future hope rather than a here and now hope and i think that's why sitting with people and being willing to listen and be present in their pain now and not pretend or sweep it under the carpet or pretend it's not that big a deal i think you know john um john said um didn't he that and one of the things about suffering is that it can be for good and i think that's true that is true but i think it's very easy for christians just to kind of minimize people's pain and suffering because like oh god visa for something good in your life don't worry about it and i think we can almost wrap that up too quickly in a pretty bow and forget that it's still really painful and difficult for that person going through it and yeah i think we can be too quick to jump to that response without really being willing to sit and lament and grieve with people and sort of say yes this is awful and your rights feel angry and upset um you know disappointed and all of these yeah i totally agree i think one of the biggest difficulties for me when you're talking with people uh who are going through suffering or whether you're going through it yourself my instant response is to try and fix the problem uh which 99 times out of a hundred dollars yeah actually you just can't right you just you just can't fix the problem all the time and um and i i've had to learn to be okay with that um have you here's one of the things i thought i find interesting when it comes to suffering or when it comes to chronic pain or long-term pain or the stuff that's been going on for a while it's do you do you find it easy as well to feel guilty that you're a bad person for doing that or you've responded in a way that is maybe not right or un got in your head you think it's ungodly i i should be more faith filled i should be more uh up for the fight jeremy in that in my language and and acknowledging pain is not is not seen as a positive thing i think sometimes yeah and i think you know this western evangelical church is very it has been very heavily influenced by prosperity gospel and this idea that if if you just believe something enough if you just have enough faith then everything will turn out well and you'll be rich you'll be prosperous you'll be well you know and when you look at people who still die of cancer or live you know really gothy people who live with long-term suffering or long-term illnesses and disease it's you know that's not that's just not always the case um yeah and so i think you know although we understand it's well meaning i think sometimes we can go too far down that track of like all things can be like healed and redeemed and made better now although it's good to ask god for those things that isn't always not everyone gets their answers do they this side of heaven and you know i've got um a friend who's a writer actually um called katie j ramsey kj ramsey and um anyone who's dealing with something like long-term illness she has an autoimmune disease and has had it released for an entire adult life and she writes about it really eloquently about that experience of living with a long-term illness that's dehabilitating and will never get better um and she's like a really beautiful christian and has a lot of great stuff to say about that far better than explain it but um she's got a book called this too shall last um and i reckon i really recommend any one reader if if they if they're interested in questions like that like what about long-term suffering um but yeah i just i think what was the name of that book again and the author so it's kj ramsey and it's called this t-shirt last instead of this joan if you're listening maybe you can find the link and put that in the comments for people it's really good she's got a lot of good theological stuff stay on it but she obviously talks about her own experience as well and also some of the damage that can be done by um people of faith who just assume that everything will be healed and if you're not that's problem with you like you've not gone to faith you must have secret sin in your life if god's not healing you that that stuff's you know i've had stuff like that i didn't knew before as well and you know we don't we don't believe that but i don't believe that's true and um yeah who knows why some people get healed and others don't but you know not everyone does so yeah um yeah no incredible beauty can come out of someone's life hey like she's written some incredible books and she's a beautiful writer um you know through through what she's been through so yeah i think god does bring some good stuff through our pain but as john said it's it's not a guarantee i think sort of have to be open about it to god yeah i was really struck actually by one of them uh john i see is put the link in the comments i am i don't jump thank you john one of the things that um john struck me with the story from was the drc jeremy and here you have a community that is suffering mainly because of the western world right and um it's interesting i'm going to tie this in with a question which came to something that we posted on instagram so you believe that your god is omnipresent omnipotent and omniscient so he designed and control and orchestrated everything so therefore he created sin and evil and redemption uh everything happened just the way he wanted so we are always uh and always have been characters in his giant show uh is this no the exact phrase but you kind of get the the sort of the impression of what this guy's saying so in other words it's like you know why why why would god create humans knowing that um sin and suffering and all that sort of stuff was was into it and i've one of the things i find fascinating with this question uh i think it's quite a deflective question because if i think about what's going on in the drc and all the suffering there and we could go well look there are people you know child soldiers and all that sort of stuff why would god allow that and you go actually no that's happening because of the consumption habits of the west that's happening because of you and me that's not god and so it's easy to offset the blame to god than it is to look at ourselves and go hang on now somewhere down the line i've got to take some responsibility for some of this stuff right is very very very difficult and we responded to the the instagram comments saying um again john touched on this what he said would be true if you don't account for free will for example i have three kids and we chose to have those three kids despite knowing um that they would live in a broken world that they themselves would experience pain and suffering and loss does that make me a bad parent does that make me a horrible person and i choose to have kids knowing what's going on around me in that the love in that the walking through life with them in that i'm hoping far outweighs the pain do you see what i mean and there's a it you don't yeah it's an interesting point it is isn't it because you don't think you don't think to yourself what i know the world's broken therefore i'm not going to have kids you have kids despite knowing it's broken because somehow in it there's a magic um is is god any different i well i mean obviously he's different drameen but there's there's a logic here that i think we can use we are we are created in god's image aren't we as human beings yeah um so the bible says and you know um god is a relational being and we're relational beings so it kind of figures that we want to live in family and in community and then you know connect it to other people and kind of to leave our imprint on the world and you know so yeah i would say god probably is like that and it's motivated in a similar way to us because you know we're made like him so yeah yeah it is an interesting point so some of the other questions that have come uh that we we've got in the comments i why does god allow the innocent suffer does god cause suffering that's a really big deep theological question is god the author of suffering and what about life-long suffering i mean you've mentioned kj ramsey why does god allow illness such as cancer a major cause of suffering and there are all these kind of questions aren't there which um sort of all follow a very similar theme and that i think from my part here is to say there is suffering can god remove it one would argue yes and one would argue actually heaven is a place where there is no more tears where there is no more pain but there is no more sin and there is no more broken world and and so i feel like god has sort of is figured it out but we want it here and now and it's in the future and so in the meantime we have a god who got involved in our suffering who suffered himself on our behalf and like you said anna is his presence that's what we want we want presence in the pain and and he's with us and i would i'd much rather have god with me in the suffering than not do i mean rather than get angry and go god why are you making this happen be challenged i'm super challenged and inspired by the dlc guys which go good this is going on we invite your presence into the midst of it and um i just think it's incredible really yeah i mean that's it isn't it it's like we live in a breaking world now whether whether we invite god to be part of that or not i you know people say people have said to me how can you still believe in god after you know all the hard things you've been through and i just think but wouldn't be easier not believing in god would it it just then it's just all meaningless and there's no hope at all like i have a hope for the future that all things gonna be made right then just hopefully life going well it's all meaningless and hopeless i don't know which of the two would i rather cling to and i think yeah it's they're valid questions aren't they like when you know why does god allow it but i think john explained that quite well in terms of that free will thing um and you know does god cause it i don't think so i think as you said humankind caused it um um you know the kind of original full of sins i'm not saying every every time someone's suffering it's direct consequence of that what's something they've done wrong but i think we've you know as a humankind have set the ball rolling um for a broken world and you know even think look at things like climate change you know all the global disasters that are happening with floods and famines earth earthquakes and all kinds happening all over our world and you think how much of that is the way that we're abusing and using the world's resources poorly and i don't know but it's hard there's not an exact cause and effect is there but it's hard to measure but i suspect you know that's more us as human beings than god as well yeah it is and i i totally agree we have to in some respects we have to take some responsibility for the world suffering but that doesn't change the suffering that we go through and and it may be that we're going through suffering because of decisions that we've made that we have to be you know take responsibility for i think there are consequences uh sometimes that we can't outrun but that said i don't think there's anything any consequence that is beyond god's grace and i don't think there is anything that he will not be with us um in and yeah and i think that that is well that's actually the the astounding thing about the christian faith isn't it and it's there's no easy answers there's no there's no silver bullet there's not always a shortcut and it's interesting that scripture that john referred to that suffering results in perseverance perseverance character and character hope as actually the bible places strong emphasis on things like perseverance and and you only really get those when you've gone through a few things is a truth right it's a reality yeah and um you look at you look at the story of the early church you know jesus goes to heaven we're going to get into this in the new uh sort of john's uh john's gospel and act series coming up in september but jesus kind of clears off to heaven and the church starts and it's all very contained and then all of a sudden persecution arises this church gets scattered but it properly explodes right i mean properly explodes and so if there hadn't been that persecution and suffering at the start what would have happened to the church i don't know and it's a really it's a really interesting one isn't it that in that suffering that in that pain god can still work and he can still be glorified and for him it's not the end and um that's a beautiful thing uh as painful as it sounds and i think we're so we're so um in our world today was so particularly in the west we're so um kind of averse to pain aren't we we do almost anything we can to avoid it to kind of numb ourselves we just we as soon as life gets hard we just tune out and watch netflix you know there's nothing wrong with netflix but yeah we have that kind of you know we just want to avoid anything that's difficult as much as possible make our lives as easy and as comfortable as possible and you know our relative prosperity allows us to do that a lot of times but as you say there's some things that no one can now run like in the end you know someone's asked about cancer hair which you know is something i i feel deeply about you know i've had two family members who've had cancer in the last couple of years um and i've got other friends who are my age who are dealing with like potentially life-threatening cancers now you know with young families um and yeah i think death does come to us all because again it's a consequence of sin and a break and fallen world like we all will you know whether it's cancer or something else we're all gonna die of something aren't we is see anything that's sure except that um yeah yeah and taxes really yeah death and taxes the only two things that we can do um you know and so for me again it's a less compelling question to ask why cancer are more compelling to say well what now how do you handle it when it affects you or someone you love and what you're going to do about it how you it's a much more compelling question say well what can i do to ease someone else's pain or to make things a bit better here on earth to bring a bit of heaven down to earth here and now and for me that that's a much more compelling question um because you can't change its existence um or not the moment maybe some clever professionals or medical people one day yeah um for me that's a much more interesting question because i don't know we can't explain away the why and we can't fix it all but we can like jesus did get involved and get sturdy and help someone who's suffering that's a really really good point because one of the things that comes across in the gospels which is abundantly obvious there was a reason why jesus suffered was for everybody else was for you and for me um and i think in your in the place of suffering one of the things that you can do is to reach out to other people um and not just focusing on you or try and numb yourself i thought it was a very poignant point there and a poignant point uh the numbing yourself you know whatever it is netflix or whatever we do try and know ourselves as a culture and i think it's not really in the bible uh but that's uh i think is is probably where we need to end it um given the time so yes thank you anna for the conversation uh these conversation streak for me flies by a million miles an hour uh you're always right at the time and it's such a big subject isn't it it's like you could talk about it for hours and not resolve it all so half an hour short yeah you could you totally could now if you want to know more i'd check out uh anna's friend's book what was it sorry kj or indeed check out anna's blog because you have talked a lot about um your own journey uh through the suffering of miscarriage uh on your blog and your response to that you can check that out as well at just give it a quick plug it's at annakettle.com so nice and easy to remember nice and easy so check out anna's website as well you can check out all our writings on there or um stuff on instagram uh it's it is a tough topic so if you would like to get in touch with us if you uh are going through something if you just want some whatever some prayers some support you just want to tell someone what's going on you can reach out to us here at crowd.churchwww.crowd.church you can also reach out to us on social media either on facebook or instagram or youtube at crowdchurch uh it will be great to hear from you uh john harding is actually in the comments uh he said uh anna edmo really really great conversation street thank you well thank you for doing the talk john mutual love sport and respect uh so thank you for being with us this week what is coming up next week anna can you remember yes i can so next week we've got pete barrens is going to be speaking um and he's going to be doing a talk next week on what does the bible say about jesus and i believe that the host next week is yourself and the lovely dan orange yeah i think so yeah we'll see who turns up absolutely so what does the bible say about jesus last week we did what does the bible say about god dan rogers did that talk i hosted that with john harding that was a great great week so next week we're going to kind of carry that on with what does the bible say about jesus because well this is the question of all questions to get into isn't it really who is jesus what does the bible say about him more importantly what do you say about jesus and if this is your first time at church if this is your first time getting involved in christian things stay plugged in do like and subscribe with what's going on i would encourage you to explore more about the christian faith to explain explain explore more about jesus and you can do that by connecting with us here at crowd church we would love to hear from you and do stick with us and enjoy the journey because it is an extraordinary journey to be on anna thank you so much for being with us all the comments are coming in now chris kent suffering changes our perspective uh when our first son died it really made us look at the hope of heaven and eternity in which jesus wipes away all of our tears thanks for sharing that chris that's not an easy thing to share um but again the hope of heaven i totally agree that actually when you sweep it all away there is this mindset which says in heaven there is no more tears there is no more pain and i'm going to get to slide down those streets in my socks that's my big plan for heaven so you know come and join us there uh it'll be great to see you thank you so much for being with us and everything else from you so i didn't even hear what you that just break up what did you just say the wonders of technology that was so slick because of that oh brilliant i love it when it works any any closing remarks from your good self dear uh no just thanks for having me um like yeah it's been a really good conversation um yeah and do keep posting through the week um get in touch with us if you want to talk about these issues more we'd love to hear from you absolutely we are going to close with one more worship song uh the king of my heart and this is a great declaration uh for all of us in life whatever whatever we're going through this is just a beautiful song uh to sort of declare your hope in christ and then once the song is finished uh the livestream will automatically end but you're more than welcome to stay around during the song write your question thoughts in the comments carry on the conversation uh but from myself and from anna that's it for this week thank you so much for joining us have a fantastic week stay blessed everyone and we'll be back next sunday bye for now take care everyone oh that was slick we're having a day event today aren't we we'll try that again the buttons aren't working oh no the worship is not wanting to play so i tell you what i'm gonna do i'm just gonna finish the live oh we could just right along for another five minutes let the king of my heart be the mouse let the king of my heart be the shadow where i hide you are you are good is [Applause] and you are good you're never gonna you're never when you are oh are good
