41: Light in the Darkness: Encountering the God Who Sees

hey there and welcome to what's the story we're an inquisitive bunch of hosts from the what's the story team on a mission to uncover stories about faith and courage from Everyday People in doing that we get the privilege of chatting with amazing guests and have the opportunity to delve into their faith Journey the hurdles they've overcome and the life lessons they have learned along the way if you enjoy our podcast don't forget to subscribe and sign up for our Weekly Newsletter and our website what's Theory podcast.com it's your direct line to the latest episodes and detailed show notes delivered straight into your inbox and the best part it's totally free once the story is brought to you by crowd Church who fully understand that stepping into a traditional Church might not be everyone's cup of joe crowd Church provides a digital Sanctuary a safe space to explore the Christian faith where you can engage in meaningful conversations rather than just simply spectating so whether you're new to the Christian faith or in search of a new church family visit crowd. church and if you have any questions at all justop drop them an email hello at Crow well hi everyone and welcome to another episode of what's the story podcast I'm Anna Kettle your host for today and I'm joined by clodine Roberts uh for our conversation so clodine is a former human rights solicor and a member of the preaching team at Freedom Church in Liverpool that's part of the new Grand family of churches across the UK she's married to Paul and they have three children in her legal career clodine specialized in mental health law and detention under the mental health act she represented by victims and perpetrators of violence including some of the most dangerous violent offenders in the country detained in maximum security she was seriously assaulted herself twice in her teens and then raped in her 20s in the context an emotionally abusive relationship she now writes and speaks on the subject of what the Bible has to say about violence against women and her book on the subject was published earlier this year as part of the cover to cover Bible study Series so clodine what an amazing introduction there so much in that so much that you've done um welcome to what's the story oh thanks Anna hi it's lovely to chat to you today it's great to have you here now let's start at the beginning and just tell us a little bit more about yourself so you're M of three from Liverpool and like how long have you been here like what's your background where yeah yeah so I'm I'm not a scer in case you can't tell from my accent um I was born in sui um moved around a little bit for uni and kind of early career but then um lived in Su for about nine or 10 years uh more recently um closer to my family and then um my husband and I and our children moved to Liverpool about two years ago we felt like God was calling us to move here um and we were in kind of a sister Church to Freedom Church down in Su and so we kind of started getting to know the people from Freedom Church in Liverpool and um moved up here to join them really brilliant well yeah sir's losses our gain in Liverpool isn't it how are you finding Liverpool so far do you do you like the S yeah we love it we're having a great time we've made really good friends already um and there's so much fun to be had in the city isn't there yeah there's a lot going on it's a really creative cool City for anyone who's not a local person he's he's listening we have listeners from all across the UK and around the world sometimes so yeah highly recommend you check it out if you haven't been before I mean I personally obviously I'm not a scout either and Nei as my husband he's also from Sor interestingly and um I moved here as a student when I was 18 and I've just never left exactly that reason it's just the Reas lots of people stay don't they yeah yeah really do so um let's dig into your story a little bit then so um how did you become a Christian have you always grown up in a Christian household or like what's your background in faith yeah so um my family is not Christian actually um my parents are kind of lapsed Catholics um my mom took us to church to get us into the good schools um but I'm not sure she really has a faith of her own um I'm not really sure about that um and I started going to um a church kind of born again Christian Church um in my teens about 16 a group of friends took me um and I kind of already considered myself a Christian I I kind of thought I was um having been in the Catholic church and at Catholic schools um and then I guess I kind of encountered the real Jesus you know um at about 16 my friends took me to Soul Survivor um one of the kind of Christian Youth Camps uh down in the South um and yeah had a great time and encountered Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit and really kind of made a commitment to him at that time that's Bob so obviously you've been a Christian since then but you know as with all of us life hasn't gone totally smoothly at all times I think we are Leger to some of this in your bio that I read there at the beginning and sexual violence has actually been a big part of your story and like a major challenge you've had to overcome so can can you just tell us a little bit about that can you unpackage it yeah so um shortly after I became a Christian I was um sexually assaulted for the first time um I I didn't really identify it as a sexual assault at that time I think I was too young to understand what had happened maybe I didn't have the vocabulary or the kind of education on what had happened and how to deal with it um and so I just kind of pushed it down um and then I was assorted again um at 18 at University um that time I did know what had happened um and I was a bit off the rails at that point actually so um I wasn't going to church um in my University Town um I was only going in the holidays when I was back at my home Church where I became a Christian um and I didn't really have anyone to disciple for me um and so I was just kind of running away from God and and not dealing with things um and actually in that period I was in some pretty unhealthy relationships um and going out with non-christians um and in my early 20s I was then in a really emotionally abusive relationship um and then that guy raped me um and after that I started to deal with those experiences but I would say fairly superficially um more in terms of my own sin in those situations actually rather than what had been done to me and the sin of others um because I still wasn't really equipped to deal with it um and I wasn't walking closely with God and and I didn't know what he had to say about what had happened to me um and so actually it was really only a few years ago in about 2019 um that God started to really speak to me about what had happened um and start to deal with those things on a much deeper level and deal with my trauma and it was only then really that I identified that first assault at age 16 um as a sexual assault and I realized what had happened and then of course it felt really raw and like it had only just happened because the trauma was kind of brought up and it was so close to the surface yeah gosh that is um such a lot to go through I mean any kind of sexual violence or assult rate is a lot you know to go through once but to go through it three times and also from quite a young age that first time I mean that as you say that's a lot of process and I suppose it's not that surprising that at the time you perhaps didn't fully deal with it or comprehend it because that's really hard to deal with at that age isn't it it's a lot to process and I I guess even has been quite a journey just alluded to even as an adult to sort of yeah recover from that and heal from it and obviously you said like um your relationship with God um over those years you know you were a Christian but quite new Christian when it first happened and then drifted away a little bit but God was sort of there in the background still I mean is it part is your story partly that coming back to God started that healing process what how how did the two Interlink faith and that experience yeah I think um I started drawing closer to God again maybe in my early to mid 20s so after all the assaults had happened um but they it just wasn't on my radar to deal with it then um like I said I felt like I was dealing things in terms of my own sin and how I had been running away from God um and I you know I had much to repent for in that period And I did and my yeah my relationship with God like got back on track and and I've been walking closely with him for many years now but um it's funny actually how it it just felt like in about 2019 the beginning of 2020 it just felt like God was saying now is the time I want to deal with this I think often we can feel like we've got no more baggage or no more deep traumas to deal with and then God says Ah now is the time how about this one um because I really I was you know I was I considered myself quite a mature Christian I was already on the preaching team of my church by that point um and I felt like I was quite together actually it didn't feel like there was this um dark deep pit just lurking just waiting to be dealt with you know it was quite a surprised to me when God said how about this let's talk about this now um because I just hadn't really thought about it for so many years especially that first assault that happened when I was 16 I just hadn't recognized it as sexual violence um and so I didn't know there was anything to deal with yeah it's so interesting isn't it I think sometimes God kind of his healing process it's sort of like I've heard it described as like layers of the onion like you know slowly gets to the center but he's gentle isn't he like he only gets us to deal with things as quickly and as deeply as we can cope with at the time so maybe that's why quite often it feels like a process or you think ah I thought I dealt with that and actually there's more deep healing to be done still yeah and it doesn't always feel gentle though Anna sometimes it feels quite brutal but when you look that you can see oh no but you know God God was actually really kind in that yeah and and the timing was quite interesting wasn't it because didn't I think you said that it was um during Co that it all came up again like during that period when the world was sling down can you tell us a bit more about kind of what happened and how God did bring it back on your radar yeah of course so like I said end of 2019 that's when kind of it first came up and it was really strange it was the result of a conversation with someone from church one of my friends said something to me um and it was a really kind of Split Second like a like a really short conversation but it made me really cross Anna so it felt like she had shut me down um but not intentionally she wasn't being mean it just was a quite an innocent comment and I just felt really angered by it so I took it to God and I said why am I so angry about this Lord and he said oh it's because you believ this lie from the enemy that your voice doesn't matter and you felt shut down and it's because of this lie and I was like oh that's a surprise so so I started to speak to God more about that you know why why have I been believing this lie from the enemy that my voice doesn't matter and quite quickly I realized that God was linking it to those experiences of sexual violence each time I had said no and that hadn't mattered to the perpetrator they had ignored it that told me that my voice didn't matter I think the enemy got in and and told me this lie your voice doesn't matter your no doesn't matter um and effectively you don't matter and so over those three occasions that just got um you know that lie got strengthened and reinforced um and I began to really believe it and so it was all linked to kind of my voice and the lies of the enemy God started speaking to me about what had happened um and then I remember it was the the very last church meeting that we had before lockdown when we were no longer able to meet in 2020 so God had been speaking to me about this kind of for a couple of months very gently um and then it was the last church meeting and I said well God when when did I first believe this lie and God showed me the very first incident when I was 16 that I hadn't previously considered as a sexual assault and God showed me that this was an incident of sexual violence and an attack on me um and that I hadn't dealt with it because I'd only considered my own sin in that situation you know and and so then it the the tears started to come um and that's why I say sometimes it feels brutal because that was quite shocking to me that God had brought that to mind um after you know over 20 years of it being dormant um and so the tears started to come and and over that time um I had just started a new job I was working for new grand churches my family of churches doing Communications and things um having not worked for about nine years I was a stay-at-home mom with my three kids um so then I was in the office and I was just crying every day and my colleagues were like the the guys in my church were like saying are you okay and I was like yeah I'm fine but it was very clear that I wasn't but I I couldn't I I couldn't process what was going on externally you know it was quite an internal thing um at that point but my mental health really started to take a dive um and I became really quite low but the whole time I was just clinging Clinging On to God and saying God I need to know what you say about what happened to me um so yeah I just started digging into the scriptures really um and my mental health went down and down that's not what you expect to hear is it you expect to hear you know I was praying I was reading the Bible I started to feel much better that's not actually the case my mental health over a period of months through the lockdown um just got worse and worse until I reached the point where I was like oh I need some professional help here that's really good and and I really appreciate being honest with that because so often it can be tempting as Christians to think oh well just go to God's word and then all the answers will be there we'll pray and we'll feel better and and that's not always the case like real trauma requires some real work doesn't it and processing and actually there's a real place for like counseling and therapy alongside you know all of that spiritual input as well and um and you did do a period of that didn't you like you know mental health declin so yeah I had some um EMDR which is a specialist trauma therapy it stands for ey movement desensitization and reprocessing um that was really interesting to me because I had been working as a mental health solister kind of years before that in my 20s and some of my clients had had it in the past so I I knew that it worked because I'd seen it in some of my clients um and yeah so I I went for that and I found that really really helpful actually and I'd really recommend it yeah just for people who don't know what it is just very briefly explain a little bit more about how it works like to do with your eyes um well there are different ways of doing it so um actually so there's a way that where you can like follow the therapist's finger from side to side so that is to do with your eyes but that's not how my therapist did it um it's not a trai traditional talking therapy you do talk about your experiences in part but it's not just talking so my therapist had um something that was a bit like a TENS machine so if you've had a baby you'll know you'll know what it's like but if you haven't it's like um kind of sticky pad that you um stick on your well when you're pregnant you stick it on your bag and it kind of buzzes with like an electrical pulse I guess um but this that my therapist had was kind of two paddles that you could hold in your hands um or you could just stick them in the waistband of your trousers one on each side so the idea is that it would buzz on one side and then the other and then the other and then the the other just alterate buzzing um like a little electrical pulse um and the idea is to make your brain fire on one side and then the other other side and the other side um in a RH them as you think about your experiences um and the way that my therapist explained it was that each um traumatic incident that you have um or experience that you have is a bit like um a box cardboard box or like an Inay in your mind um with all the thoughts and feelings emotions surrounding that incident of all all just like Little Bits of Paper just shoved into the box and they haven't been sorted it's like lots of little posits just shoved in the Box um and so I had three of these boxes in my mind one for one for each experience um and as you think about the incident um kind of in like a a guided way um as the the buzzers Buzz one side then the other it's a bit like your brain kind of sorts through all the Bits of Paper and all the poits and puts them in the right place um and I found that a really really helpful kind of illustration of what was going on um and it was yeah it was really amazing for me yeah it's interesting I I I have to admit before talking to you I hadn't come across that before and I think it's so interesting isn't it how the brain works and how God's made us so fearfully and wonderfully and it's it's very complex isn't it but actually yeah the sort of physical side and how the brain works mentally and how it all comes together and the spiritual as well again yes yeah I definitely found that it was also partly a spiritual experience for me because it's not a traditional talking therapy there's a lot of kind of listening or or sorting through things in your own mind and just thinking about them so as I did that I felt like God was with me in the room and it was like I was having a conversation with god um and sometimes that would make me laugh or get upset and then my therapist would say oh what why are you laughing and I would say well she wasn't a Christian so it was quite funny I would say well God just said this so it was quite an interesting experience for me and for her I think yeah yeah it sounds sounds amazing and so obviously you went through that process and did get some real freedom and release and you also said that at the time you were you know that whole period of life like gave you B head space to kind of work through some of it and wrestle with scripture as well I know you've gone on to like like write a book on this more recently but tell us a bit more about that process like how did that all come about and yeah yeah yeah so um at first I thought God this timing is crazy we're in the middle of a global pandemic or at the start of a global pandemic really um and everywhere's going into lockdown kind of why are you bringing this up with me now this is not good timing but obviously we know God's timing is perfect isn't it so so it was great actually because the expectations on me for work just really lowered um and then my husband who had previously been commuting into London every day um was Suddenly at home all the time and just able to uh be present a lot more with the children um and so actually it it felt like really good timing I started um really digging into the Bible and and praying um a lot God what do you say about what's happened to me um and I I kind I jour as I pray so I just kind of write down what I'm praying and if I hear God say anything and I also just write notes in there on um the the bits of the Bible that I'm reading that day uh whatever it might be so sometimes I'm quite disciplined and I go through a certain book of the Bible but in this period U I was like God I need to know what these stories of sexual violence in the Bible and other types of violence against women I need to know what they mean why they're in there um and I looked for a book that would explain kind of each story I wanted kind of a a kind of a dummy's guide you know like this story means this this is what we're supposed to take from it and this story you know and just going through them and I just couldn't find it and so I started ordering loads of books because I'm a real reader so I was on the internet I was just ordering everything I could find on the subject yeah and there wasn't that much a reader too but some of what I could find was really like these heavy academic t you know big thick volumes and my husband was like there's another parcel like what are you doing and I was I'm researching and I was just ordering all these books um and just reading there was a little bit on Hagar in one book a little bit about Tamar in another and just kind of writing all these notes in my prayer journals like okay this is what I think God's saying about this story and what he wants to say to me personally through it as a survivor of sexual violence um and so I couldn't find the book that I wanted but I found a little bit here and a little bit there um and ended up piecing it all together and then God started to speak to me about what I had in my hand you know through my like in my prayer journals I I had the book that I had been looking for because I had like compiled it I'd pulled it all together um and God started speaking to me about how that was linked to then using my voice and think I I thought that my voice didn't matter but actually it did because there are other women who need to know what God says about what's happened to them um and so I started to um just think about how I might get that into the hands of other women and to preach as in in our churches because we don't really talk about these biblical stories of violence against women and that was part of my problem was that I'd had no teaching on on what the Bible says about this um and I know that there are churches that do want to help people deal with their trauma and things um yeah so I started sort of thinking about that and how I could get it out there yeah that's amazing and I think you're so right like we don't tend to talk about these issues very much in the church do we I mean not saying we never do but I don't think women's issues Women's Health like lots of these subjects don't get talked much about in church certainly I've never heard a preach or or a talk before on sexual violence in that kind of context and so yeah I think those those resources for the church so needed at the moment aren't they why do why do you think that is do you have do you have any ideas on why these kind of subjects you know that really affect a lot of women don't they and there'll be women in you know lots of churches that are affected by the issue of sexual violence or assault you think it is that we don't talk about these issues much yeah I think part of it is to do with the fact that traditionally there have been more men teaching than women um and that's obviously still the case in some denominations or or church families um and so I think men may not you know I'm generalizing but they may not think about addressing those issues um but also I mean it's there in the Bible so so they obviously will have come across it in there but I think also there's a lot of fear around perhaps doing more harm than good um and bringing things up for people and then not knowing how to equip them to deal with it healthily and safely um so I think silence has always felt like maybe the safer option especially since there haven't been resources to show people how to speak on these subjects um and also I think there's the issue that in the past some of these biblical stories of violent Ence have been really poorly interpreted um and they've laid blame on the victims um and they haven't given us a true picture of what God says and of his character and how much he deeply cares about women um and so I think if you if you did decide to preach on one of these stories some of the interpretations you come across might be incredibly unhelpful um and not give an accurate picture and so I think people they clear yeah yeah that absolutely makes sense um but I also think that's why it's so exciting that you've written this and that you know you're speaking and sharing about your own story which I think is Really Brave um but also so important because you know it's it's a subject that you know we do need to talk about more and so I mean obviously tell us a bit more about the book itself then like what's it called and and what conclusions did you actually draw like what what kind of did you decide that the Bible does have to say on this subject yeah yeah so it's part of the cover to cover Bible study series um which is great because you know that's quite an established series of of Bible study guides um that that small groups and churches have been using for Generations now so I'm really pleased that hopefully that means it'll get into more more people's hands um so it's called cover to cover violence against women um discovering Elroy the God who sees um and that first story of of biblical you know the violence against women um that first story of Hagar it's the first one we come across in Genesis um that really spoke to me about how God sees what happens to her and he pursues her he goes looking for her in the desert um and it says kind of the Angel of the Lord appeared to her but I like to pick to Jesus meeting Hagar in the desert um because that gives us a picture of like the character of God and sets our expectations of like God's character in that moment meeting with Hagar um and yeah she just she felt really seen as a result um and throughout the stories I started to notice a pattern that the the male characters that we often call Bible Heroes so like Abraham like Jacob and David they were often present in these stories and were not the hero of the story um they they let the women in their lives down and in some cases like in in Hagar's story they committed grave sexual sin or some other kind of graves in um they were you know they had turned away from God's plan for them um and so we set them up as Heroes and then we come to these stories and maybe we expect them to be the hero in that story too um when in fact they they are a real let down you know they turn out to be in sin um and let me give you another example like in the story of Tamar David is her father he's the king um so and and we know you know it says elsewhere in script that he um has like the heart of God doesn't he so we expect him to be this the hero in that story and to be a good just king and a loving father and Tamar is raped and he lets her down he doesn't go to her he doesn't offer her justice um yeah he he is a real disappointment in that story it's like David like come on um but but I think what I started to see was that every single story pointed to Jesus as the Savior the true king the just judge the loving husband the loving father you know they all point us to Jesus to say you're not going to find Salvation in a king or you know in in in any Earthly man or any Earthly person like you got to go to Jesus um and then the final story that I look at in in the Bible study is um the story of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery and that's kind of the the point where we go like this is why we turn to Jesus this is his response to violence against women and Jesus interrupts violence um and have you have you ever seen there's a a children's uh Bible called the Jesus story book Bible yeah I've seen kind of the subheading of that of that Bible is um every story Whispers his name and that's what I really found as I looked at the biblical stories of violence against women that every story Whispers his name and that it's Jesus who can um who can interrupt violence and can who can bring healing I love that yeah that's such an interesting perspective I think it's you know like you said before so often we avoid these stories because they're bit difficult or certainly at first glance it's like oh I don't know what that means like all these terrible men in the Old Testament you know who just and it still happens today doesn't it who were just allowing violence against women and like what does God have to say about it and I just love that I love that you know and and even the even the title of your book it's got that name for God the God who sees and yeah I love that because so often and it's your story you didn't feel heard you didn't feel seen and your experience and that's so often the experience of women who've been you know victims isn't it and yeah yeah like it's right there the God who sees and doesn't Overlook and has something to say and speak into their pain whisper into their pain and so yeah it just sounds like a fantastic and such a needed resource and I for one we'll definitely be getting a copy to have a read thank you yeah just just amazing really now I reckon we could probably carry on talking about this for ages because it's fascinating but um I'm we that time's ticking on so um I'd love to hear kind of what your takeaway in this season or what one big life lesson that you've discovered about God or about faith is up to this point like if you I know it's really hard question is it but if you could just still it down to like one thing what's that what's that one thing that God imprinted on your heart or yeah yeah yeah for me um I think it's really that God uses everything for our good even the really awful traumatic experiences of our lives and I think um other guests on your podcast have said this you before Anna but it's just a lesson it's a lesson worth learning isn't it like absolutely God God uses everything for our God are good and actually that doesn't mean that he condones the awful things that happen to us or that they happen by his design because let me make it clear that I really don't believe that I don't believe that God intended for me to be abused and assaulted um his his plan for me does not include traumatic experiences and violence um he only has good plans for me but actually the the the sin of others affects us doesn't it um and and God can use those traumatic experiences to to advance his kingdom so he he uses it for my good to grow me and show me how much he loves me and to bring me healing but he can also use it for the advance of his kingdom for us to tell others like this awful thing happened but but my God was there and he loves me and he brings me into healing and to Freedom um and so yeah I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn yeah yeah that's so true and I think you can see that so clearly in your own life and the story you've just shared like first you know God did healing process in you just for you because he loved you and he wanted you to be free but then also out of that freedom has grown like this whole story this book the resources the like you know speaking opportunities you know chance to share your story more widely so that other people will also hopefully find that freedom and so I love that about God I love that you know as you say God not everything bad in the world is from God is it like well nothing bad in the world in fact it's from god let's get you know like bad things that happen Our Lives aren you know people say oh it's all part you know God works all things so good doesn't mean God plans everything yeah you know in that way but at the same time he's so Redemptive isn't he he's so good he's so gracious he's like if we'll work with him he's just you know he's so willing to to work even the bad even the dark awful things back good and I I love that it sort mirrors kind of that whole Redemptive plan he has throughout creation it's like he's always redeeming isn't he he's always redeeming those bad things and um yeah it just reminds me of um as you're speaking that story I think it's the story of Joseph Fits in in 50 where where he says you know you meant this for har but God meant it for my good just as you speaking I was like thinking of that it's you know so often what the enemy means for harm and our destruction and or you know or pain God can work for his glory because he's such a good God and yes I love that that God is good I mean you say it and it's like yeah often people come on and say that but it's such a fundamental principle that we have to stand on isn't it when life is difficult and throws huge curve balls as it's I don't know about you but I feel like I continue to be learning this truth my whole life that God is good because he's good because he's good you know yeah and we say that sometimes so easily or we sing it in our work SS God is good um but when we actually stop and think about it and especially when we think about our our life story and and what God has done um then it's like oh oh yeah but he's actually really good and he's only good you know he's he's good yeah and um I was chatting to Jenny calcraft who I know is a friend of yours as well a few weeks go on this podcast and she's she had a great analogy about this sort of similar theme that she was saying sometimes it's in the breaking of our hearts and it's when our hearts are break and open that the truth that's written on our hearts like we know God's good and we s them out it you know and we can say it and read the scriptures and all of that but it's only in the breaking that it actually gets right inside deep down and I just thought wow isn't that an amazing way of thinking about what not that's not what got you know that's not the reason for a Brokenness but in know breaking this that's what God can do and yeah he uses it to get in deep doesn't he yeah I absolutely agree and also you know it's like the the picture of um of being in darkness and then the light comes you know you can you can only really see the light when you're in the darkness or the light that comes brighter you know yeah I love that so finally then I guess just tell us you know where people can find out more where can they reach you where can they find your book it's such a good resource and you know I'm sure people listening will want to have a look at it want to find out more where where do people go yeah thanks Anna um so the book If you just uh search the you'll be able to find it um but the the website for that is called equipping the church.com um which is great isn't it um but also you can find me on Twitter or Instagram if you want to hear more about my story or if you want to come and invite me to speak at your church um or yeah ask ask me anything um yeah I'd love to to connect with people and um yeah just help them really use use that resource and you know I want to equip people to be talking about this subject in their churches um the books designed for personal or small group study and I know lots of churches have kind of midweek life groups um smaller groups to kind of do the Bible study but also I really want church leaders and teachers and preachers to be talking on these subjects so um do use it for that um you know you don't have to get me to come and tell my story you can you can use it and tell your own story um and teach on those those stories um that are in the Bible because you know they're in there and and we need to be teaching on the whole of scripture yeah I think that's such a good point we can't just pick and choose the easy bits or we often do but we shouldn't so yeah a big challenge there and yeah gets a good one so yes important resource that so do check it out and um we will just to add we will add all of those links that we just discussed onto the show notes afterwards as well so great there and the show notes Cline thank you so much for joining us today I've really enjoyed our conversation and found it really challenging and inspiring and actually I've learned quite a lot as well it's been a pleasure and I Thanks so much for having me not a problem thanks for having us guys thanks for joining us this week and what's the story we'll catch you against very scene and just like that we've reached the end of another fascinating conversation remember to check out crowd online church at www.c crow. church don't forget to subscribe to what's the story on your favorite podcast app we've got a treasure Trove of inspiring stories coming your way and we'd hate for you to miss any of them what's the stories of production of crowd online Church our Fantastic Team including Anna Kettle Matt Edmonson Tanya hudac and myself sou Fay and work behind the scenes means to bring these stories to life our theme song is the creative work of Josh Edmonson if you're interested in the transcript or show notes head over to and while you're there sign up for our free newsletter to get all the goodness delivered straight to your inbox that's all from us this week thank you so much for tuning in and we'll catch you in the next episode bye for now