What Does The Bible Say About Education?

What does the Bible say about Education_ Matt: [00:00:00] Well, good afternoon and welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Matt Edmundson, and beside me is the talented and all Round Good Egg, which is Phil Watson. Phil, how are we doing today? Phil: Hello everybody. Uh, if you happen to be watching in Liverpool, you'll know that they've just scored and have taken a one year lead against a team called Everton, Everton or another football team, but you might not have heard of if you're not particularly interested in football. Obviously, if you watch this in the future, you might not care. Um, and you might not like football at all, which is perfectly reasonable. Is it, is that reasonable to not like football? I suppose it is. Matt: I, I suppose it is. It's not, football's not mentioned in the Bible, is it? But is it Then they say cricket is because there's a verse in the Bible that says Peter stood before the 11 and was bold. Phil: Ah, I never heard that. That's absolutely brilliant. I already, I always knew cricket was God's favorite sport. That's brilliant. Matt: [00:01:00] So there you go. So yeah, welcome to Crowd Church. We're an online church and a spoiler for anybody who's not wanting to know the results of today's football game. Uh, so welcome to church. Uh, I have been traveling, I got back yesterday, so I'm suffering slightly with the old jet lag. So if I fall asleep, please just wake me up, Phil. That'll be fine. Phil: Will do. Matt: Does metaphorically prod me? Phil: Have you been to the United States of America? Matt: I have been to the United States of America, yes. I was there for two and a half weeks doing a bit of a tour with my daughter Zoe. We had a great time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bit of work, but mostly play, uh, if I'm honest. Fantastic. Fantastic. It was just great to catch up with friends and so yeah, I loved every minute of it. Not gonna lie, not gonna lie, but it's good to be back. It's good to be back with you guys. Good to be back here at Crowd. So let me tell you what, well, Phil, do you know what's coming up today? Why don't you tell the good folks, Phil: uh, I believe we'll be doing some praise and some worship and some praying. And we're gonna hear a talk about what the Bible says about [00:02:00] education. Does the Bible actually mention the word education or we're gonna find that out. Matt: We're gonna find that out. I'm spoil. I'm not gonna spoil that. Will's gonna, okay, so we have Dr. Will Southworth sharing his thoughts about education. Now, what's interesting about this particular topic, Phil, is that, um, you are a secondary school teacher. Um, I am in, in England that basically is high school. Right. So you, you teach, um, you teach secondary school students, you teach A levels as well. Right. Phil: I teach kids from aged 11 up to basically 18. So, um, I dunno what, wherever you are, what that context means. So I teach quite a lot of kids who are getting ready for public exams. Mm-hmm. In England, we call them a Levels GCSEs. Um, but I basically teach, I teach kids in the English state education system and I've, I've only been doing that for 25 years and just occasionally, occasionally I'm almost on top of what I should be doing. And I think, um, I, for, for [00:03:00] point of interest, I teach French and German. Uh, or I'm trained as a French and German teacher. Mm-hmm. But I've become a, an re teacher already stands for religious education. So in the UK most people will have some sort of religious education. I know that's not true everywhere. So you would learn about comparative religion. So you'd learn about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, but you'd also learn about various ethical issues and what Christians or what Jewish people believe about them. And the conclusion we invariably reach is, uh, Christians disagree on all sorts of topics. And you know, and I always say to the kids, I said, look, I'm just your teacher today, the kids I teach. But you need to understand that it's quite possible you'll meet several Christians in your life and they will disagree on certain topics. And that actually doesn't stop them from being Christians. It just means that different views on certain issues are completely reasonable. Where Christians all tend to agree is. That you, you, there's a God. That's the first thing you know, if you [00:04:00] meet a Christian who doesn't believe there's a God, I'm gonna guess, they've got some real confusion over their theology. They believe that there's something called sin and that we all sin. So there's all things that we do. We all do things that God doesn't want us to do and don't do things that God wants us to do. Mm-hmm. And then we have to understand that we deserve a punishment for those sins that Jesus took the place for us. And the final thing, I'm kind of going through the four points. Yeah. I, I yeah. Get is that you need to decide, you know, what am I gonna do with this information, other sorts of issues. And I'm sure like education is one of them. There's a Christian view, but there'll be a variety of Christian views. Mm-hmm. Some of which will reflect the culture in which you find yourself Matt: ab you are a Christian working in the secondary school system. And, uh, in fact, my. My kids all went to a Christian school and Will, so with who is gonna be doing today's talk and is joining us for Conversation Street, he is the chair of that school, so he's got one viewpoint, which is great. But two of my kids, Phil, have also, [00:05:00] uh, done part of their education. Uh, their. Part of their education in the very school that you work. So it's true. I'm really excited by this. 'cause, you know, both of you guys have had impact on my Yeah. My kids and their, and their education. So, um, really interesting conversations coming up. So do stick with us if you have any questions or thoughts as we go along. Do write them in the comments. Uh, and we will get round to them, uh, hopefully in Conversation Street, which is the second part of this service, where we talk about your questions, your thoughts, your ideas on education, following on from Will's talk. So without further ado, I'm gonna hit this button on my pad and we are gonna get straight into it. What does the Bible say about education here is Doctor, I love to say this Doctor Will Twith, uh, expanding on that. Um, Phil and I, we back, uh, in just a little while.[00:06:00] Will: Hi. So today we are talking about education and what does the Bible say about education? [00:07:00] Well, my learned teacher, friend Phil, tells me that the word education come from two Latin roots educ, which means to train or to mold and re, which means to draw out. And there's this dual meaning of the input of knowledge as part of education, but then also our response or reaction to that knowledge. And education can be general and informal. It can refer to a more formal system of education. And what I'm not really talking about today is. People as learners, because people are natural and amazing learners. All you have to do is spend, uh, a year with a, a newborn baby in their first year and just see how much they learn and develop in terms of skills and knowledge in that first year. People are natural [00:08:00] learners. So I'm gonna talk about more about intentional education and attempts to teach. So what I'm gonna share a few thoughts about, uh, what the Bible's influence on education has been and is some different types of education in the Bible. And then finally the example of Jesus, who's an example that Christians take a particular hotel. So to start us off a quote from Nelson Mandela, the Freedom Fighter, social campaigner and eventual president of South Africa. And he said, education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world. And I think the sentiment is a clue to why the Bible has influenced the establishment and spread of education quite so much because the Bible is full of this imperative to change the world for the better for us to be changed so that we can go on and change our wider [00:09:00] world. So one example of this is in Deuteronomy 10, uh, uh, verse 18. And that in that there's a command to God's people to defend the cause of the fatherless and the widow. And throughout history, children and women, and especially those without the family to provide them, provide for them, have been amongst the most vulnerable and exploited people. And even now in the 21st century, there is still in some parts of the world, a fight for the right of women and children to receive literacy, numeracy, the skills they need to avoid. Uh, that exploitation. And historically, the Christian Missions movement compelled from the Bible to make disciples in all nations has always gone hand in hand with introducing schooling and training to communities where there is none or amongst [00:10:00] the most needy. Why? Well, knowledge is power, as we've heard from that quote in Nelson Mandela, power to change your circumstance and power to change the world. And these are actually themes from the Bible, throughout the Bible, from the escape of Jews, from the slavery, um, led by Moses, right through the teaching of Jesus, a formation of the early church. There is this theme of power to change the world in parts of India. The word for school literally means the building beside the church. School and missionaries are just inseparable. They've always been part, um, schooling has always been part, setting up schools has always been part of Christian mission. The first Sunday schools began in 1780 in Gloucester, Gloucester set up by a guy called Robert Rakes. And he was [00:11:00] appalled by the destitution and criminality of the majority of young people in the town where he lived. And these young people would be working 12 hour shifts Monday to Saturday in fields and factories and completely without any, any form formal education and very little time for it. So for an hour each week before church, there was Sunday school and this was, uh, introduced to teach reading and writing to whoever wanted it. And it was quickly oversubscribed and many more Sunday schools were set up and the movement spread across the UK and into. And for many, this was the only source of education until schools became more organized, um, and laws were changed, um, to allow and, and then enforce, um, the education of children. Louis Braille, uh, was a boy blinded at the age of five in France who went on to develop the system that is now used worldwide by those unable to [00:12:00] see that system of raised dots that we call braille. He was a committed Christian, a French priest, a guy called Sha Michel Depe, uh, was the one who first opened a public school for deaf children in Paris. And in translating the whole French alphabet into sign language, this actually became the basis of international signing that's, uh, that we use today. So it's, these are a few examples of the faith of followers of Christ guided by the Bible. That inspired these initiatives in education and people reading the Bible, being prompted by words like those of Jesus in Matthew 1914. Let the little children come to me. They're not the bottom of the heap. They are important and they should have the opportunity, uh, to know God, to be trained and [00:13:00] educated, so as well as the inspiration to transform society. The Bible actually as a book has had quite significant impact on education and, and what the Bible is really is a whole library in miniature. It has books of history, poetry, philosophy, leadership, eyewitness, documentary, lots of different literary styles and Christians have worked through history to mass print it, to translate it, and generally make it as available as possible. Why? Well, because we believe it holds the keys to life. And the result is that the Bible might have been often the only book owned by a family or community. And because of its status as a kind of mini library of different, uh, literary forms, it becomes an excellent resource for literacy. And for many cultures around the world where language is traditionally spoken only, there is no written down form of language. It's been portions of the [00:14:00] Bible that have offered, been the first written material and the basis then for developing, uh, uh, uh, a full written, um, account of, of that spoken language. And that's because of the efforts of Christians, again, inspired, um, by what the Bible teaches. So the message of the Bible is also a direct encouragement towards education, or at least developing and using our talents. So a few examples, some a 19 verse 33. Teach me your ways. Oh Lord. In one Timothy four, verse 14, uh, we commanded do not neglect your gift in proves one verse seven as description of a fool as one who despises instruction and wisdom and amongst people God uses in the Bible. Some of the well-known figures mentioned, um, other scholar Paul, who wrote a lot of the letters in the New [00:15:00] Testament, um, artisans like, uh, Hura Abby in two Chronicles two, and he was an expert in working precious metals and commissioned to decorate Solomon's temple. There was Solomon himself, a king of Israel, who was famed for his wisdom and learning, and who wrote three books of the Bible. Daniel is described in the first chapter of Daniel as a young man showing aptitude for every kind of learning. And then Joseph, who learned Egyptian culture, um, sold into slavery, um, in Egypt from from Israel, learned Egyptian culture and was a very skilled manager and administrator. But really importantly, educational status is not a definer of our engagement with God. There are no glass ceilings in God's kingdom because of how qualified we are as it sometimes feels that there are in our society and the economy, there are no [00:16:00] minimum essential criteria required in our application to follow Jesus. God used those who would've been considered uneducated just as well as the clever ones. It was Amos the Shepherd, another book in the Old Testament, prophet Peter, the Fisherman, one of Jesus' key disciples, and he was even described in acts as uneducated and untrained Gideon. The youngest least important son of a farmer who went on to become an important leader of Israel in the Old Testament. And one of the reasons Christians have worked so hard to translate the Bible into local vernacular languages is that this faith that there are no limits to knowing Jesus. Where before it was only those who were educated enough to know Latin or maybe in modern day to learn English that could read God's word. God's wor word and offerings of for salvation is Ev [00:17:00] for anyone and everyone. You don't need a degree in theology. You don't need a degree in anything. You don't even need A-G-C-S-E to know God. You see what God, what God has described in the Bible is valuing most is not knowledge but wisdom. So Paul again, and he was a very learned man. He writes in one Corinthians eight verse one. Knowledge puffs up while love builds up, those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. And again, writing in uh, two Timothy three verse seven, he encourages Timothy to be careful of people who are always learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. Paul knew that education can actually be a trap. Knowledge without wisdom or understanding is just a load of facts. It can even make us [00:18:00] too proud to engage with God's wisdom, who can teach us anything, right? Even wise. Solomon, in Ecclesiastes one, verse 13 writes, I applied my mind to study to explore by wisdom, all that is done under the heavens, which basically means everything in the physical world that he could see all his meaning. Was his conclusion. So how can education avoid becoming a meaningless bunch of information, knowledge divorced from understanding? Remember the concept of education that includes our response to what we learn and all information we receive gets slotted into our existing view of things and builds up what's called our world view, which is the lens through which we understand the world. It is why fake news can amplify so quickly in social media, echo chambers, we tend to fit information into our preconceived [00:19:00] understanding rather than evaluated at face value. It's a natural response. We all do it, and I think part of the wisdom that the Bible talks about and values is referring to the worldview that we fit our knowledge and learning into. How do we interpret knowledge? What does it all mean? The Bible actually gives us a very coherent worldview that many Christian schools, including here in Liverpool, seek to base their education around, if you like. It's, it's the Bible's view of reality, and it describes four main truths. One, God created all things and he created them good. Number two, creation has been spoiled by humanity, self-centeredness, and rebellion, what the Bible calls sin. Number three, Jesus died and rose from death, a perfect man, and yet God, [00:20:00] to cancel out the effect of that spoiling. And finally, number four, one day in the fullness of time, God's creation will be restored to its initial perfection and goodness and how we live. Can contribute to that eventual restoration. We each have a part to play for good or bad, towards that restoration. The reason this makes sense as a worldview for education is that it not only illuminates why there is tension between what was fundamentally good, what seems fundamentally good, but seems to have become messed up. It also gives us a very clear purpose and hope for our learning and understanding to participate in restoring that innate goodness. It knits our personal development into a much bigger picture, into a much bigger story. I wonder [00:21:00] what alternative worldviews you've encountered in your school or perhaps in your children's school is worth thinking about. Ultimately, God holds us as parents accountable for our children's education. And if you have children, what lens do you think they are developing? I think from my school, the worldview I picked up mostly was probably get good grades, get a good job, be influential. That's success and that's meaning, which, yeah, you can't really argue with, but it's a little bit hollow low perhaps. Another version is get knowledge so you can be self-sufficient and not dependent on anyone. That way leads to happiness, self-sufficiency, or even it's all about you, your self-determination. You have the opportunity to do, to be whatever you [00:22:00] like. That's certainly the tone of a good chunk of advertising and well, and yeah. Yeah. Film and all media really. It is not hard to imagine as many commentators have that our education system is actually more concerned with making our children economically productive in society than actually training them in wisdom. Training people up for jobs rather than for life. Worldview is really important, and education has a big part to play. Are we training children in selfishness or service in self-sufficiency or in interdependence and community, in knowledge or in wisdom? So to finish, what kinds of education are described in the Bible and what's Jesus' example? Now, I'm not an educationalist. I've never studied educational theory. I'm not necessarily saying this is what an education system should look like. I'd leave that to [00:23:00] much cleverer people, but I do pay attention to God's word as a source of wisdom. In the Psalms, it encourages us to meditate on God's ways, which I take as meaning, chewing over God's word and getting all the meaning out of it. Some examples are Psalm 119, verse 97, which says How I love your law. I meditate on it all day long. Your commands are always with me and make me wiser than my enemies. Proverbs uses an analogy to teach concepts. It teaches a kind of deeper meaning through a picture, if you like. So a couple of gems of those. Proverbs 25, verse 14, like clouds and wind without rain is one who boasts of gifts never given another one. Proverbs 26, verse 17, like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a [00:24:00] quarrel, not their own. Other types of education. We've already mentioned. Paul, who was trained by a famous Rabbi Gaia, and his teaching would've included learning scriptures by heart through repetition, learning, interpretation of law from past case study and building on other rabbi's rulings much like a lawyer would today, but also the use of analogy and parable to teach truth. Jesus was also a rabbi, which literally means teacher, but not formally trained as one, and he used parables from everyday life to teach about God's kingdom. He used everyday situations to be as accessible as possible to normal people. He wanted his listeners to think more deeply than just a trade off of question and answer. A rich young ruler wanted to know what the most important commandment was, for example, and Jesus told him a story about the good Samaritan. Someone else wanted a description of the kingdom [00:25:00] of heaven. And Jesus told stories about the lost sheep, the lost coin yeast in Dove. He told stories about the sowing of grain and a rebellious sun leaving home in scandal. And Jesus is described in the Bible as someone that people listen to for hours, sometimes days. Jesus was also an excellent coach for his followers. His approach was completely immersive. He basically shared three years of his life with his closest disciples. They ate together, they traveled together, they ministered together. His closest followers learned by watching disgusting imitating. Jesus put them in situations where they needed to take initiative, where they needed to practice leadership, and then they'd go away together and to debrief. And all the time they were developing skills, growing in insight, and of course, hearing his teaching and witnessing the miracles, his primary call to them.[00:26:00] As his trainees, if you like, and the same as to us is follow me. After three years of this education, these followers who were a mix of educated, uneducated, started and sustained a movement that now counts around 2 billion people amongst its members. And this became a movement that survived lots of attempts to squash and exterminate it by various successive power structures. So initially the Jewish religious elite tried to stamp out the church, then it was the Roman Empire, and then with the rise of Islam across the Middle East and North Africa, Christianity survived the power struggles between the Pope and the reformers who wants to translate the Bible. And finally, it survived Nazism and communism and continues to grow even under persecution today, particularly in Islamic countries, I think you could say Jesus was an effective teacher.[00:27:00] So in summary, the message of the Bible has inspired the establishment of education through history has inspired people to reach out and develop others. Often through teaching and training, developing our gifts and our knowledge and our understanding is encouraged by the Bible. But the level of our education, our qualifications, is no barrier to knowing God's God values, wisdom and understanding above knowledge. And the Bible gives us a framework of perspective in which education makes sense, a worldview for wisdom. And finally, Jesus taught by coaching and by story, and his call to each one of us still is, follow me. He's an excellent teacher. And one of my favorite sayings [00:28:00] is that he, that he spoke is recorded in Matthew chapter 11, verse 29, where he says, take my yoke upon you as in the, the bit of wood that you'd put across. Two cattle plowing. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matt: So thank you, uh, will for that. That was, uh, will. So with on what the Bible said about education, we are gonna get into will's, talk a little bit more, uh, in just a few minutes. So if you've got any questions, thoughts, or ideas, do post them in the comments. We would love to hear them from you. We have questions already. Uh, and I know Phil and Will can hear me. Things like, uh, how can we help our children with Astu? Uh, what should I do if my child is struggling in school? We're gonna get into all of that. So, uh, that's all coming up. But before we do, we're just gonna take a [00:29:00] few moments to pray for Ukraine like we have been doing every week since. Uh, it all kicked off. Uh, the Prayer comes upon the screen. You can, uh, pray along with us. Read the words out loud or same, uh, inside your head if you prefer, if it's depending on the environment, where you're at and what you're comfortable with. But do join in with a Prayer. After the Prayer, we are gonna have a brief time of worship. Again, all the words lyrics will come up on the screen if it's safe to do so. Uh, then please join in with that. Just think about the words. It's a song called, oh God, be Our Guide. And we definitely need God's guidance right now in all of this. So, uh, we're gonna put that on. I'm just looking for it. There it is on the screen. Uh, so we're gonna do the Prayer. We're gonna type in worship, and then I'm gonna be back with both Phil and Will, uh, to talk about this whole idea. What does Bible say about education? I will, while it's a good question.[00:30:00] Father God, king of all nations, we cry out to you. Now, for the people of Ukraine, we ask you to rescue those who are vulnerable from the hands of their enemies, that they may live life without fear before you all of their days. Lord, have mercy, Lord of lords and prince of peace. Our politicians are predicting the biggest war in Europe since 1945, and we simply cry out to you urgently to write another story in our time for the dark machinations of evil men give wisdom beyond human wisdom to peacemakers seeking an equitable and less violent way. May politicians exercise the wisdom from above, which is peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, and full of mercy. Lord have mercy. [00:31:00] Holy Spirit, we pray for the church in Ukraine, a nation in which 70% of the population call themselves Christian. Give our many brothers and sisters in that nation courage in this crisis that they may proclaim. The good news of your kingdom bind up. Broken hearts and bring comfort to all who mourn. Lord have mercy. You Lord, make war cease to the end of the earth. You break bows, shatter spears, and burn shields with fire. And so we ask you now to save the lives of many people in Ukraine. Make a peace that is strong and not weak. Deescalate this crisis. We hear of wars and rumors of wars, but you Lord are our rock, our fortress, and our deliverer. Our hope is in you. And so we address the nations now in the name of Jesus. We say, be still and know [00:32:00] God. He is exalted among the nations. He shall be exalted in the earth. Lord have mercy. Video: When you speak, it is a lump into my feet and in peace. Your spirits me. You go before me to prepare what I can see.[00:33:00] Wow. Matt: Dunno why the worship ended there. Uh, why it froze. But, um, uh, sorry about that. I genuinely have no, I, I can't tell you why that is. Um, short of the Liverpool game. Even Matt can tell you, I dunno. Say again. Will: Not even Matt can tell you. Matt: No. Sorry about that. Well, we'll just jump onto Conversation Street a little bit earlier and in front of me. I have two very fine looking young gentlemen, uh, both Will and Phil. Uh, how, how, how you doing? Will, it's good to see you. Will: Yeah, I'm great. Great. Nice to be here again. Thanks, Matt. Matt: Yeah, yeah. It's always good to have you Now, gentlemen, just do me a favor. Scoot slightly towards your right, so you're a bit more central on, there we go. There we go. [00:34:00] That's lovely. It's all about framing, apparently, when it's online. Uh, so welcome. Uh, well, it's great to have you now. I have two, uh, men who have been involved in education for a wee while, uh, in front of me. Will, how long have you been involved in education, bud? Will: Uh, be eight years, I think, in a governing role. Uh, 18 years in a parental role. Um, but yeah, yeah, eight years, a few more years as a student, Matt: right? Yeah, a few more years as a student. And, uh, I, I like what Phil said earlier. How many years have you been teaching Phil? Just 20. Was it, you said? Phil: 25. 25, right. But you, you, you, you're always learning, aren't you? That's one of the things that will may mention in his talk as well. The day you stop learning, you really need to start again because as well, whilst we remain teachable as human beings in a thing is possible, whether that's in your marriage and your job, your [00:35:00] career, the way you're dealing with your children or any other relationship, if you're prepared to change or learn, then you've always got a chance of getting better and improving. Uh, there's a tip that's probably biblical. Thank you very much. I dunno where it's in Bible, but I could probably find it if I really looked hard enough. Matt: Brilliant. So I guess my, let's start right at the start of your talk. Will you, you mentioned, uh, a quote from Nelson Mandela about how education can change the world, and then you talked about how, uh, um, uh, missionaries and education were kind of synonymous with each other, you know, and, and why, why is education so powerful do you think? Will: Oh, that's a good question. I, I think, uh. I think the kind of that, that historical context that I was talking about, there was this realization that there are, there are the poor, there are the exploited, there are those without, and education actually is, is, is a, is a root out of that. So that kind of whole emphasis on there is injustice [00:36:00] here and we are made in God's image and everyone is made in God's image. Everyone deserves a chance there. And education actually is the way after that. So there's that kind of historical, if you are being exploited, it's probably 'cause you can't read the contract that you've just been asked to sign or, you know, something like that. Um, and that, that, you know, humanity is full of these kind of levels, isn't it, of, of injustice. Humanity will find some way to put someone else down to exalt themselves. And I think the reason education is so powerful is because theoretically it's something that everyone can engage with whatever kind of level of. Awareness 'cause we are all natural learners. Mm-hmm. And so there's an, an opportunity to learn about the wider world, which actually just levels that, that playing field. And of course, you know, the, the rich and the privilege have always found a way to stay ahead, um, through the history of education, which is fascinating. But I think, yeah, it fundamentally, it's that it's, it's allowing people the same kind of opportunities, um, as each other [00:37:00] and lessening that kind of gulf of privilege, if you like. Matt: Phil, do you still see that in the state school system that there's Phil: Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting because when I think of, uh, um, uh, to not go off the point too much, but the church is responsible to some extent. For something called the patriarchy, which is the, I mean, here we are, three men, three men talking. It's the, the, the, the dominance of, of males throughout time. But if you look at the Bible, you think, who, who did will mention the, the widow. Mm-hmm. So, uh, a female in that culture with no male, no, no husband, which would put you really low down the pecking order. So we need, we must look out for people who are that marginalized and the orphan. So the child with no mother and no father. So once again, somebody incredibly marginalized with very little social power, social capital, and the chances of the widow and the orphan, um, having any influence on anyone else or even on their own life to better, it would've been minimal. And I think it's really interesting that the Bible, again, talks time and time again [00:38:00] of those most marginalized people in the society. And I think we have to make a distinction between how the church, in its broadest sense, behaves. Occasionally, which is terrible and woeful, but actually what the Bible says, which is, Hey, most marginalized people, you are in the middle of this and you are the ones that, or you are part of the, the people that I want my word, you know, God's word to be, to be heard by and to be acted upon, um, so on. Be, I'm, I can't be, I can't, um, apologize for the church forever, but, uh, but I'm gonna sort of say it now, that the, the, that if the church has hurt you, it's not God and Jesus and the Bible. It's human beings taking something and abusing it. And that, I'm afraid happens in any society or happens to any structure that, that people see as a, as a vehicle for power. What was your question? Matt: I just wondered whether you saw, I mean, it was very good what you said for me. Thank you. Uh, but it was, it was bringing it back to what Will said was [00:39:00] more like, um, education. Is you, you see the lack of it, uh, in the marginalized, right? Yeah. And is it a case of in the state school system, I mean, we live in the uk, right? In theory, everybody is, should have equal education opportunities. I don't know if they do. You are a teacher in that system, do they? Phil: I, I think knowing the little bit about education around the world, if you happen to be born in the United Kingdom. Throughout the history of time and place, you've got a pretty good deal. You might see that your deal is not as good as the next persons within the United Kingdom, but of the 7 billion people on the planet, most of them from an education point of view, would see, um, Britain, Europe, the western world as being a chance where there is education that is offered to you. You might not necessarily take it, it might not be as good in one school as another, but at the age of it, in the UK anyway, if you are four years of age, you are obliged to go to school. Your parents are obliged to send you and there will be a [00:40:00] place for you. And that schooling really doesn't end till you are 16, 18 years of age. And if you look to the history of mankind, that's a mankind, people kind. That's a pretty good deal. Um, I do think, and I know we are not here to make political points, and I think the education system in the UK is generally pretty good. Most people end up literate and most people end up numer. Um, however, you can see a situation where people from a particularly privileged type of school end up dominating, um, very influential roles. And there was an irony for a brief period of time where the Archbishop of Canterbury. The mayor of London and the prime minister of the country all went to exactly the same school. Mm-hmm. And I think in that school, they were all in the same kind of house or group. If, if it Oh, wow. If you understand Harry Potter, they're all in houses, aren't they? None. Schools, they're there. And you do go for an egalitarian society. Where we believe in is your merit, in your ability and your skill and your hard work and your diligence [00:41:00] gonna get you somewhere. It seems fairly unlikely that one set of one school is gonna provide the three of the most powerful positions in the lab. I'm not saying those people shouldn't have been in those positions. I'm just saying statistically that does strike me as being unlikely. Mm-hmm. Will: Yeah. Um, however, go on. There's, there's really interesting work, which I, I'm hopping back to public health days and I, I couldn't quote it if you, I'm afraid, but where actually, um, every child where no matter where they are born, so no matter what postcode they're from. Um, up to about the age of two, I think most children have a similar kind of level of ability in terms of their kind of learning and their intellect, if you like. Yeah. And, and actually for many, it's when they then hit the school that might be in their postcode that you begin to get this kind of separation. And that's not all 'cause of the schools, it's not all because of, um, resource in the schools. Partly it's because of, um, the kind of situation children are living in and their ability, you know, whether they're read [00:42:00] by, read to you by their parents, for example, in the evening, that kind of thing. Um, whether their parents are around even. But, but it's astonishing actually that early on in life, every child has the same potential for learning ability. But actually it's our kind of culture and the way we organize things and geography, frankly. Um, in the uk that begins to kind of separate those two lines until by the, by secondary. You've got this gun gulf of, of ability. Ability. It's not really ability, it is just kind of opportunity and progress. But I think also the, the kind of more marginalized ones are those that don't necessarily engage with education as we have structured it and decided that that that it, that should be the way, and those that don't get on with that, um, that don't get on with the kind of intellectual side. Those are, those in, in a sense are the marginalized and they're kind of thinking much more broadly about how we do education is a massive topic and you know, really hard for any government to, to get [00:43:00] right. But understanding how each child, and you'll know much more about this, but understanding what they engage with and what's really gonna. Enable them to fill their potential. 'cause it might not be physics, um, but, you know, whatever. Yeah. It, it wasn't physics for me. Matt: I did physics, which I'm, and Josh is also doing physics. Anyway, uh, I digress. I I, I do find this whole, um, thing around education. Fascinating. You know, and, and, and, and thinking about it from a Christian, uh, worldview. Well, you talked about worldviews in your talk. Um, just, just for those that maybe have just joined in or maybe didn't fully understand what you're saying, just explain what you mean by worldview. Will: So worldview really is, I mean, the best analogy is it's a lens. You know, if you, if you had a, a camera or some binoculars or something and you put it a blue lens in front, everything looks blue. Or if you put a red one, everything looks red. You know, it changes the way that you look at something. And worldview really [00:44:00] is that, and it's very. Complicated. And, and we kind of build up worldview from the moment we're born, more or less. We, we, we take cues from nature. We, the things we learn, the, the role models we have, it all kind of affects our worldview, and it's really how we make sense of the world. So where we learn a, a fact, we'll, we'll tend to slot it into how we understand. So, um, so yeah, here I'm, I'm kind of looking outside. Um, there's people playing cricket on the grass over there, I think summer. And I think, oh, people play cricket because, you know, opposite my house, there are people playing cricket. You, you kind of, you, that's your assumption. And of course, as you go through life, those assumptions begin to be challenged. But there's a sense where we, we try to take new information and slot it into what we already know, rather than kind of dismissing everything and starting again and going, yeah, oh, some people don't play cricket in the summer. Um, suddenly play, play in the winter. I mean, it's a stupid excuse, uh, a stupid example, but that really is worldview. It is, it's the. It's that lens that we build up of how [00:45:00] we make the world make sense basically. And it's, it's something we take for granted. If someone has asked you, what's your worldview? They go, what? And you notice it when you visit another culture and you begin to talk to someone from another culture. 'cause there's a whole load of assumptions that they have about the way people behave that you don't have. And, and again, they're unaware of most of it, but it is something to be very, very aware of. 'cause education obviously, and, and the, the system of education you're in actually has a massive impact on the, the view of the Phil: world that you built up. That, that's really interesting. If I can ju jump in there, because there's something called the PISA studies which rank where schools and education systems come, uh, in, in comparison to one another. And it seems to be a fairly western obsession with having a league table for everything. And I believe Estonia is at the top. And so as a teacher we get told, oh, Estonia are doing better. You need to be more like Estonia. And you go, well then we need to adopt Estonian policies. And here's one that's a bit of a shock to English people watching this. Most of the world in Europe, well, and Europe [00:46:00] particularly, they don't start teaching children formally in school till less six six. In England, there's a sort of, you can get a competitive parenting scenario where my child's already reading and therefore, or school starts at four, and you go, you know what? The best education systems in Europe and in the world, nobody does that till they're six or seven. Look at Scandinavia for example, where there's far more exploring and playing. And to some extent, my argument against the English education system is we've decided that you need to be cram full of facts which need to be tested regularly, even if the information is of no use whatsoever. And I'm looking at you from clad verbs. I've got, I can speak German, French, Dutch, and a few other language. And I still couldn't do my child's primary school homework. And I'm going, how Video: did you create a Phil: situation where I've got, I'm, I'm not as clever as will not many people are, but I couldn't do my kids' primary school homework and I'm going and I can't even worsen that. I can't [00:47:00] even see the point of doing it. Video: And Phil: yet these are quite, and, and, and, and, and, you know, and the teachers aren't, it wasn't. The teachers had that who brought, and somehow we all colluded to bring this in together. And if you're a parent and you're worried about your child's education, that's great. It's great that you are worried 'cause it shows you're concerned. Um, don't necessarily worry about your child meeting the educational milestones that the United Kingdom has brought in, which says by the age of 11 you have to have done that at 16, you do your GCSEs at 18, you have to have done a levels. It's perfectly possible to revisit education as you get older and have another look at what you, you didn't know or what you did know. Many people that I know, and I'm one of them, have changed career path as they've got older. Um, so I was a teach, I was a export salesman for quite a long time. I don't know why it didn't suit. It was, it's a very good example. It didn't suit me at all. And then I became a youth worker. Then I became a teacher, then I [00:48:00] became a foster care, and now I work in promoting, fostering. And, and it comes back to what I was saying at the beginning, which is if you can remain teachable, um, it's amazing what new things you can pick up as you go along. Um, and I think as. Parents, we can become competitive with our children. We go, oh, they're not doing as well as that child or this child that school's better than this school. They've got into that school. My work as a parent is done. It isn't ever done. It is never done. Do not let the, do not. That's a interesting Matt: point you're saying there, Phil, because, and sorry by the way that my camera keeps going off, I dunno why that is. Um, probably it's, it's this worldview. Will his worldview's gone, gone a bit pear shaped. Um, I guess an interesting thing you say there, Phil, 'cause one of the questions is what can I do or what should I do as a, I'm gonna put the word Christian, parent, I suppose any parent needs to think about. But as a Christian specifically, my kids are in school. We, I mean this is another commonality. We're all men here, but we all have kids in school. What should [00:49:00] we do from a Christian point of view, do you think, to help our kids in school? Phil: Uh, I've got two tips. One is always, Hmm. I'm not gonna say always. If you can eat at a table. As a family, eat at a table. Uh, this is completely unscientific, sorry, will, but my experience of children that I teach is the ones that have sat at a table, particularly with a mom, dad, or intergenerational or, you know, grandparents, adults, cousins, whoever it is, friends from a different background. So, for example, the church that we all go to has people from, I know we all like, what are we, male, stale and pale, aren't we? For all white old men. Sorry about that. But, but it's having people from a variety of backgrounds in your family household and you sit at a table and you eat and you chat and you just be, you'll learn an awful lot about character from that scenario. So if you want to tip from a, a [00:50:00] man, I'm nearly fif, I'm nearly 52. I've got two birth kids and adopted kid, and a variety of foster ones. And if I had one tip, it would be eat at a table. And the second tip. If your children are still young, but you can do it when they're older as well, is, uh, and this is statistically proven, reading to children is the most, um, I dunno if it's Causational correlation, I'm looking at will, like, he knows the answer to everything. Uh, when research suggests that parents that read to their kids, those kids do better in education, uh, and in fact in numerous other life scenarios than, than children who aren't. And I guess it would suggest a parent or an adult figure who wants to spend time with their child. Very good. And, Will: and those two examples actually relationship is kind of key in both of those. And you know, as Phil said, we have this ridiculous kind of hierarchy of league tables for everything. Um, and [00:51:00] the, the choice between a school where your child is in community learning. To be in community learning service within a community, um, as opposed to being in a kind of top flight school, getting a's at everything. There's just no contest between those. And, um, I mean, I've said about worldview in the tour, I think that's very, very important as well. Um, but, but it's, yeah, the, the relationships not only at home but within school, I think are, are actually massively important as well. Mm-hmm. Um, and you get, you get all sorts of scenarios where, um, where you know, potential of a child growing in terms of their learning, in terms of their wisdom, in terms of their understanding may come well after schooling. Yeah. It may come much later in life doing something completely different and it's kind of, school is something they survived almost. You, you hear a lot of those kind of stories. Um, but, but if in that. Process. They're, they're learning how to relate, how to, how to be part of community, where they're home at school, [00:52:00] uh, and learning those, I mean, what we call 'em kind of softer skills, don't we? But actually those are, those are massively important. And I think the schools that we've chosen and actually changed for our children along the way, relationship was a key part of it. Um, and seeing our kids slot into a, a community that's kind of not just their own age group. And although that's the way schools generally are structured for kind of, for all sorts of reasons. Um, but actually having the opportunity to kind of relate more widely, as you said, to kind of with, with people who are different, actually relating across age groups is, is, is also massively beneficial for kids. Um, not everyone has that opportunity, but, but I think it's, we can get hung up on the grades. We, um, on the parents' evening try harder kind of thing. Um, but actually there's that, there's other things that if you kind of. Think forward in life, they can be far more significant for our children. And, and well, yeah. Matt: And that's, I think that's a really interesting point. And I, one of the questions which I know [00:53:00] people are gonna want, want to answer is, especially if they have young kids, and maybe just tell your stories, because I've put my kids in certain type of school, will, you've done this, you and I have similar sort of background on this. Phil, you were slightly different. Um, how do you choose as a parent or as a Christian parent, the right school for your kids? Phil: There's an assumption that you get a choice that we talk about in the United Kingdom. Isn't true. It's true. It's not a choice necessarily. 'cause in some areas, schools select. And in some areas they recruit because they need to fill them, fill their, their allocation of children. And you'll find, and you'll find that their schools vary and you'll, you'll realize that if wherever you live in the UK we recently had the day when you got a letter from your council saying which school you got into. And some people will be delighted and go, my kid got in and other people will be bitterly disappointed and go, oh my world, my world, my word that my child's life has ended because at the age of four, they've not got into this school. My advice would always [00:54:00] be you trust your parenting because parenting creates character and character is more important than school. Um, although school is is very important. Um, we also have all sorts of, uh, shenanigans in the United Kingdom where your postcode and determine which school you go to and your postcode can be determined by the price of houses. So whilst you might, uh, you know, you might be for or against private education, I'm fairly ambivalent towards it, but you might go, well, I have to live there to get into that school, so I've gotta pay money in Liverpool where we all are. We have another scenario, which is quite absurd in my opinion, even though I work in one and I'm a governor in another, and two of my kids go to others. We got faith schools. Where, um, which are state schools, which are, so there's a Church of England or Catholic, or there's a Jewish one. And you have to suggest or, or show that you are of that faith or at least interested in that faith to get in. Mm-hmm. And all these things make an incredibly complicated [00:55:00] situation and scenario. Um, and I think to choose a school, um, there are various things you think of and I think going along and getting a gut feeling like you were saying is probably as good a reason as any, but I wouldn't go to the schools that you've got no chance of getting your kid into. 'cause you'll just get disappointed and you, it might be that you begin to maneuver. It sounds very manipulative, but you maneuver what you do and where you live to just to get a kinsman school. So for example, if you have to live within a mile, more or less of that school, then you need to move to get into that school. There's no point in. Applying if you are not in the catchment area and knowing the criteria. So I often, 'cause I work in a school that's considered pretty, uh, academically high achieving. It's a great school. And people ask me, how do I get the kid in? Can you give a reference? And you go, that won't make any difference. You need to read the criteria and need to go on the website to read what it says to find out how you get [00:56:00] into that school and visit it and meet people whose kids go there and ask them what they think about it. Um, it's also helpful if you know your child. So if you know your child is not particularly sporty as an example and you go round the school where you might send them and all they talk about is the brilliant football pitches, table tennis, et cetera. You, you might go, well, this isn't for my kid. My kid prefers this type of activity. So there isn't, there really isn't one school that fits every child. You really gotta know your kid. Know the schools and then try and apply that way. As I say, for most people in most parts of the United Kingdom, you don't get much of a choice. And probably, I dare I say probably your kid will probably do. Okay. Probably lots of caveats there. Um, you, Will: well, I think Phil's far more knowledgeable in this than me. I mean, he works in a school, but actually I remember [00:57:00] some advice you gave me mm-hmm. When we were all kind of stressing about, you know, at that kind of going into reception. And, and I, I felt, I felt that responsibility of where our eldest was gonna go to school. Um, and you said something like, um, actually it's the kid they sit next to that has more of an impact than mm-hmm. Than everything else. And I think, again, there's, there's real truth in that in terms of the relationships are, are really key for, for our, our kids growing up, I think the choices that I've made are the ability to be part of our kids' education. So not just at home. And, and there are some schools which I think do that better. Yeah. And there are some schools particularly I think at secondary that experienced where it's like, we are the professionals, you are the parents, and yeah, we want you to come to parents evening, but you know, leave your kids with us, they'll be fine, kind of thing. And, and I dunno whether that brings true as a teacher at all, but, um, and that sense of, um, let us do the teaching you've done your bit and dropping them off each morning. Um, that actually, in my experience of, of our kids going through education, [00:58:00] um, is that's a very much poor experience. And actually before God, I feel that responsibility for, for us to be teachers. Now, I, I could not teach our children curriculum. I could not get 'em through GCSEs, somebody would die. Um, I just don't have that skillset at all. Um, but I wanna be part of what they're being taught. I wanna be able to engage with their teachers. And I think the move that we made from. A, a kind of more state system in, in, into the Christian school was definitely, there was a, there was a, an increase of relationship immediately, which has had a, a profound impact, I think on, on us as a family. Um, we seem to have lost Matt altogether. Yeah. We can just, yeah, Matt: I'm still here. I'm still here. You can hear me. Uh, which is, you know, a beautiful Will: thing, but it, it can be something that Yeah. Causing a lot of stress. I, I kind of knew that. And, and in a sense, along with any kind of parenting decision, only time will tell you, kind of look back. I think for me, the school that I went to, I, I definitely survived school. I look back and go, yeah, there were [00:59:00] all sorts of amazing opportunities my dad taught at a private school, so we kind of got free private education. Like, I kind of grew up on site in the school. Um, uh, by the time I was 18, I was just, I, I didn't belong there. I was so ready to leave. Um, and I kind of look back and go, yeah, that there were lots of opportunities. It was a very good school, but it's not something that I can see. Necessarily shaped my character. I can see lots of other things that actually shaped who I am far more positively than my school experience. So, yeah. So yeah, don't, don't be dazzled by the Yeah. By the TED rating. Phil: Um, yeah, I would, I would have, no, I wouldn't take any notice at all of the Ofsted rating. I know it's outrageous if I'm, if somebody's listening to this going, well, I, I've been off dead numerous times. And, um, sometimes, uh, I think that is completely misleading what you have, the conclusion you've reached. But just like Will said, and I appreciate, some schools lend themselves more to this than others, but when our kids, um, got into the local, went to the look, got into, so it sounds like passed an exam, we lived [01:00:00] down road. They went to the local primary school. Um, my wife became the governor of the school or one of the governors. So that's the system in the uk. And I, I used to run the discos disco fill. I used to do loads of PTA stuff and we were fully involved in the school. And that's another thing I would suggest. It is harder. I think with secondary, you are right. But get involved in your kid's school to every extent you can. And another thing, and I'm saying I'm teacher hat on and dad hat on here, parent hat on, is that teachers are under tremendous pressure to get kids grades. Yeah. And I will say this out loud, and I would say this in front, Ofsted, if your kid, and in England we have a system. One is the, is a poor grade, probably we'd argue with GCSEs nine is the best. I have a list next to the children. I'm teaching in year 11 of what grade they're meant to get. And I have to be accountable for whether they get it or not. So if a kid is meant to get a six and they get a five, somebody says to me, why did that child get a five, not a six? What did [01:01:00] you do wrong? Almost. And as a parent, I've said to one of my kids, um, he's meant to get a six in something. I think it's French. And he went, it'd be quite a lot of work for me to get a six. And ultimately, if he gets a five. It's not gonna make an awful lot of difference. And it is, it's the tyranny of data. It's the tyranny of data. And there's a beautiful verse that I'm gonna slightly misquote in the Old Testament where King David counts up his hiding man and his, and his, uh, property. And he says, uh, something along the lines of, oh no, I've put my trust in statistics and it and not God. And numbers are fine. I can count. You know, it's great to count. 1, 2, 3. Brilliant. But ultimately you don't get a control group with your children when they go to school. Mm-hmm. You can't say, oh, they've done better in that school or that school because Matt: you, Phil: you'll never know. You do the best you can. Mm-hmm. And you might not have the same choices that we have where we live and with our, um, postcodes and [01:02:00] with our income that, you know, where, wherever you are watching this, it could be completely different, but, uh, you have to do the best you can with, with what's available to you. And one other little tip I would suggest is, so my son just turned 18 and on his 18th birthday, I gave him a big wad of letters that I've written to him since his birth. So every now and again I write a letter. I did it from a daughter when she was 18. She's 20 now. And they just say things like, you know, uh, we love you, you know, for me and your mom. You know, this is some funny things that have happened recently. You know, you did this in primary school and you've done that and we're so, we love you so much. And at the end with something along the lines of, um, we're doing the best we can with the resources and knowledge that we have. Yeah, we all view, because I'm convinced that it's an Oscar wild quote, isn't it? You know, you, you, you, you might end up being forgiven by your children, but you know, ultimately they'll find a reason. They will find a reason to find you annoying. I mean, sometimes my kids, it's unbelievable. Really? I know. It's unbelievable, isn't it? And they never had that. You, you, [01:03:00] you can, you can do the best you can. Do the best you can. And then, then, and maintaining the relationship with that kid, with your child is the most important thing. Please do not fall out with your children. Over the difference between a five and a six in their grade. And if they get, you know, we've got exam season in the UK coming up. They're under a lot of pressure. They're pressure at school, pressure at possibly at home pressure from their peers. Um, and they might get the grades they need to move on to the next thing. They might not, either way, it's not the end of the world. And we've only got, look at the examples that Will mentioned in the Bible of people going on with very limited, you know, p Peter, the fishermen, the, the shepherd was the lowest kind of socioeconomic, uh, category, if you like. And these, there are numerous examples. If you've got a purpose, you've got a Christian purpose in life, um, all things can be, can be turned around and can be, you know, you, you can, you can have a fulfilling and fulfilled life. Matt: Um, I think that's very truthful. Will: I, I would, I would [01:04:00] just add to that as well. 'cause I mean, yeah, maybe Phil can't say as a teacher, but you know, the, the teachers of your children are also doing the absolute best they can with the knowledge and the resource that they have. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and also under an enormous amount of pressure and speak with a, with a sister struggling in, in secondary education in Scotland. Um, you know, I think another part of our, our kids' education, if there's a, if there's, if there's possibility to have some sort of relationship and, and teachers watching this may go, no, we don't want to be talked to by lots of parents. At the end of the day, I just want to go home. But, you know, if there's opportunity again, is part of being, being part of it, to, to engage with it with your kids' teachers and not kind of hold up the grades to them and say, look. Look at this, but, but actually that kind of partnership, I mean, there's that old saying, isn't it takes a village to raise a child. And, and, and that is an ethos of many schools that, um, that, that they wanted, look, this takes a community. It's not this expert teacher that will get our kids through [01:05:00] to the university and wage that you think they deserve or whatever. No, it, it, it's a much wider thing. And I think that's part of the wisdom of the Bible. You see the, uh, the relationship and the community and learning together and, and building that understanding together and that wisdom and that outlook, uh, which becomes much more important than the, the facts that you can relay at exam time. Matt: Brilliant gentlemen. Uh, for those of you who have just joined the live stream, by the way, uh, and you can hear me, but you can't see me. This is not the voice of God. This is, this is the voice of Matt. For whatever reason, my camera has stopped working. And so all you can do is hear me, which for some people is a beautiful thing. Um, so I'll keep you gentlemen on screen while we close the, uh, while we close the service off. Thank you so much for joining me, uh, and joining us to chat about education and what does the Bible say about education. I love the fact that the Bible, as you both have pointed out, is full of uneducated people changing the world.[01:06:00] Uh, and education is good, but it's what you do with that education that counts. Uh, and I think, you know what, it's a beautiful thing and, uh, it doesn't, education does not disqualify you from the presence of God. Uh, and wherever you're at with your education, whatever God has given you, use it for him, uh, and use it for his glory, and you never know what's gonna turn out, you might end up like, well, like a doctor, you might end up like Phil, like a teacher, or you might end up like me with no camera working. Either way, we're all happy, right? So, so bless you guys. Thank you so much. Uh, normally at this stage of the service, we place some worship, uh, to leaders out, but I'm actually just gonna end the live stream 'cause I'm not sure the worship's gonna work. We have a few technical di DI can't even talk now. A few technical difficulties going on. Uh, but yes. Next week, uh, we are gonna be back hopefully with our technical, uh, problems behind us. We're actually talking about sex next week. What does the Bible say about sex? We're gonna get into that [01:07:00] juicy topic. Uh, you're gonna have John and Kirsten Hardin talking about it, which is gonna be fantastic. So yeah, I opted outta that conversation much to my kids'. Uh, delight. Uh, but yes, thank you so much for joining us wherever you are. Have a fantastic week. Anything else from you? Two fine looking gentlemen. Phil: Yeah, enjoy your kids. Enjoy, enjoy being with them. But yeah, they're fun. What? He said, they're exciting. And do everything you can to maintain the relationship. Do not fall out with your children over silly squabbles as far as it's down to you. Stay friends with them. Oh man. Matt: Absolutely. And on that bombshell, we will end tonight's Crowd live stream. Thank you so much for joining us. Bless you. Wherever you are. Uh, and uh, do, uh, if you go to the website, www dot Crowd Church, you'll see the link up, uh, besides Will's head there. Uh, you'll find out all what's going on here at Crowd. Be great to connect with youth. Uh, so [01:08:00] that's it. Thank you so much, gentlemen. Thank you very much. Bless everybody. Have a fantastic week. Bye.