What Does The Bible Say About Science?

What does the bible say about science_ Let's talk science and faith Matt: [00:00:00] Well, good afternoon and welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Matt Edmundson and it is great that you could join us, uh, here on this sunny, well, actually getting darker Sunday evening. I'm with my very good friend. Uh, will, how you doing? Will you enjoying life? I am Will: doing very, very well, Matthew very, very well. Rather than exciting game of football going on, Matt: there is an extraordinary game of football going on and I appreciate that. Uh, there are people from both sides are on the, uh, yeah, we must remember the other side. It's true. So we won't, we won't go into it. Uh, all we'll say is Yeah, yeah. Won't mention it, but if you, uh, are in the uk, it might be worth watching Match of the day later. That's all I need to say about it. That's that. We'll move on. Yeah. Yeah. So apart from a Foot Will, how you doing? Are you doing well? Having a good weekend. Yeah, Will: I'm good. I'm good. It's very exciting to be here. Great, great to with you. Matt: Yeah, it's great. Thanks for joining us now. Uh, what is gonna happen today? Let me tell you what's going on. [00:01:00] Uh, if you, and before I do that, actually, lemme just say, if you are new to the Crowd, Church livestream, very warm, welcome to you. It's great that you could join us. Great that you could be here We are an online church. Uh, simply put, we just do church online. Yes we do. Which means we talk about the things of God. Uh, we talk about Jesus, we talk about the Bible, we talk about real life. We talk about all these things going on and figure out how it all works together a little bit. And so if you are here for the first time, a big warm welcome to you. It doesn't matter where you are on the faith journey, whether this is your first time ever in church or whether like me and will, you've been to church more than the few times, uh, you are welcome here, wherever you are on your faith journey. Big warm. Welcome to you. Now Will, do you actually know what's happening today? Lemme play this little thing on the screen. Oh. Where's it gone? Can you hear me? Will: No, Matt: I can hear you gone. You. Oh, there we go. It's coming up on the screen now. So welcome on Will: Thought worship Conversation Street. This is exactly what we're doing, dam. [00:02:00] And I'm gonna point to it. Yeah, there we go. Matt: Yeah, go for it. Will: Worship. And then I just lose track. But anyway, yeah, yeah. There's a thought worship, and then we, we chat about the talk. Yeah, we do. We looking forward Matt: to Will: it. Matt: Yeah, I'm totally looking forward to it as well, actually. Uh, it's one of my, it's in fact it's probably my favorite part of the stream if I'm honest with you. Uh, because the way we do Crowd, if you're not, uh, if you're unfamiliar with Crowd, lemme explain to you how we do it. Um, we are gonna have a talk as most churches do. We look at a topic, we dig into it, but then we have a conversation about that talk and you get to join in so you can throw in your questions, your comments, your ideas, uh, your stories into the comments if you're with us on the live stream. And we will look at those. And if you've got any questions. Uh, we don't always say we have the answers at all, but we will definitely, you know, have a conversation about these kind of things. And today will we have an exceptionally handsome chap doing the talk, I feel. Do we? We do. I know. [00:03:00] Yeah. Do I know? Brilliant. So, yeah, will is actually doing the talk on the whole topic of drum roll. Please go for it. Will, what's today's topic? Will: What does the Bible say about science? Nice, small one. For today, Matt: we thought we'd give you the easy topics to talk about. Yeah. Will: So yeah, way too much of me talking today, unfortunately. But, um, yeah, it's, it's a great topic. Please do bring the questions. Um, it's great to, great to discuss further and an exciting topic. There's, there's lots, there's lots to say. Matt: Oh, there is. I love it. I think it's just a phenomenal topic, so I'm really excited about it. Uh, so yeah, so we're gonna get into that whole talk. Once the talk is finished, uh, I'll be back to introduce a little time of worship and reflection. Then we're go like Will, so we're gonna have Conversation Street and then we're gonna end it. And if you wanna know wherever we are in the live stream, you can see this graphic at the top of the screen, which kind of lets you know where we're at and the whole thing last. About an hour. So we reckon we'll be done by about 7:00 [00:04:00] PM in the uk, which is according to my clock, in about 54 minutes. So without further ado, will, I'm gonna bring you on, uh, you go quickly get changed, um, and I'm gonna bring you on to do this talk and then you and I will be back in a little bit. So here's Will, answering this week's question, what does the Bible say about science? Here we go.[00:05:00] Will: What does the Bible say about science? Is the Bible in conflict with science? Do you have to choose between the Bible and science? These are very real questions for many, and some people assume, I think that modern science has somehow disproved. God made the Bible irrelevant. What do you think? Now, this is my Bible. It's got an awful lot of pages, which are wafer thin. The Bible says a lot of things and science is a huge field. [00:06:00] So I have to say up front that I don't have the time here to fully argue any case. Uh, anyway, I'm not an expert in every aspect of the debate, to be honest. But what I do hope to do is give you some food for thought today, spark your interest, maybe help you question any assumptions that, that you may have. My name is Will Swith. I have a degree in biochemistry, a master's in parasitology, a PhD in molecular genetics, and a master's in public health. I currently work in cancer research, and if I'm to share my cv, you might conclude that I'm a scientist, but that doesn't really define me. I'm also officially middle-aged. I'm a husband, I'm a dad. I'm a cyclist, supporter of LFC and a believer in Jesus. So let's get into it. It's important to find the question to scope out what we're talking about. So first of all, what is, science is a very general term for a huge field of research perspective and practice [00:07:00] science is an approach to knowledge that involves one, observing. Two, developing a hypothesis based on those observations. And three, then investigating your hypothesis systematically. Usually through empirical measurement, it usually involves also applying some rigorous skepticism to the observations you've made to check that your interpretation is not just you trying to fit the facts to your own prejudice or, or perhaps narrow view and that skepticism generally. Then other people critic criticizing your work, um, to make it better. So an example, I observe that my hair first thing in the morning is even more messed up than usual. Uh, my hypothesis is that the cat messes it up while I'm sleeping to test my hypothesis. I stay awake all night to see the cat doesn't appear, but my hair is as messy as ever.[00:08:00] My face also now looks awful. I developed skepticism about my cat theory and set out to test another explanation. This, in a nutshell, is a scientific method. So where did science come from? Where did these ideas and way of approaching the world originate? What started what we think of as modern science? Would you be surprised to know that it was the Bible that largely shaped it? Now, that's a big claim and maybe too big for our time here, but I'll try to explain. The Bible is certainly all for it. It positively encourages investigation and learning in places. Prove. 14. The simple person believes everything, but the prudent wise person gives thought to their steps. Psalm hundred 11, verse two says, great of the works of the Lord studied by all who delight in them. [00:09:00] In Daniel one, we have a story of four yous that God gave them learning and skill in all literature and wisdom. And Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams and in Proverb 25, it's the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out. But when I say that the Bible has shaped science, I don't mean you can use it as a textbook though, to be honest. Some people try to, there are some interesting verses like one in Job 26, 7, which describes the earth hanging over nothing like a sphere in space. Uh, but at the time, the thought was that the earth was held on a god's back or a giant turtle or whatever the particular culture was. But really electrical engineering not covered much. And if you wanted to design a new immunotherapy against cancer guidance, you'll get from scriptures fairly limited. So what do I mean when I say it shaped science? [00:10:00] Well, the developments of science, more or less really got going in the 17th century, 16 hundreds in Western Europe. Before then, most learning and thought depended on logic and theory. It was more philosophy than experiment. And there are many people in ancient times that are now thought of as scientists, mostly mathematicians and astronomers. But there was very little in the way of science practiced. These were isolated cases. Prevailing culture was either that God in nature were one. That's the Greek philosopher Aristotle, or that the physical world was an illusion entirely, and meaning was only to be found within your own consciousness, Hindu, India, and Chinese culture, or that humanity was just a cog in a much larger cosmos without any purpose at all. And none of these views really inspired any investigation or measurement of the world around them. But there were [00:11:00] two influential men who are now considered among the godfathers of modern science. France is Bacon and Galileo, Galileo, and they explored a view that scripture's reveal God's will and nature reveals God's power and therefore have people had a responsibility to explore and investigate both. And from this very beginning, the Bible and modern science was seen to be complimentary. Not in conflict. Stuff doesn't just exist. It's God's purpose that informs and fashions it, and that makes it worth exploring. So although there've been plenty of thinkers and observers in the world that had gone before, there'd been no development of science or a scientific movement or method. The idea of laws governing nature was not really previously considered. But if you believe God created it all. That idea of a law governing it begins to make sense. [00:12:00] But why Western Europe in the 17th century? Why was that the time when isolated ideas suddenly started developing into what we now know as the fields of physics, biology, chemistry, and others, when observations about the world around us started to inspire efforts to find explanations? What else was going on? Well, this was the time, interestingly, when the Bible was not only translated into the common language of Europeans, but the printing press made it widely available and affordable. And in this absolutely fascinating book and visual mango wadi, an Indian from a Hindu background, explores this in a lot more depth, a lot more depth than I can do now, but I really recommend reading if you're interested. Visual argues that as people began to access the Bible, they realized that God was all about revelation. He wasn't the mysterious spirit that [00:13:00] remained unknowable as most religions worshiped. God wanted to be discovered. There was almost a spiritual duty to investigate God and all. He'd, he'd been all he'd made. God could be known. God can be known. That was totally radical, and in my mind it still is. And the ultimate expression of this is Jesus as the visible representation of the invisible God also described as the light of the world in John's gospel. The other revelation that the Bible brought was that people mattered. They weren't the play things of the Gods mere mortals that had to appease the whims of the superior being through sacrifice and other things. God made people as a [00:14:00] reflection of his own nature. God delights in people, and he also commands that we as people should love other people. So armed with these two understandings in the Bible that God reveals. Himself and his purposes, and also that people matter. It was actually the church that spearheaded learning started schools, universities at a time when most people considered learning was only for the privileged view. Christians saw it was a good thing for all God's children. It was Christian men and women that began scientific discovery considering that God could be known and that it was their responsibility as believers to discover God and his handiwork. It was largely Bible believing people that created medical societies and missions because they believed humanity was worth fighting for, and God equipped us with knowledge in order to do good.[00:15:00] So if the Bible encourages learning and research, the whole scientific movement gain momentum through Bible, believing Christians, what is the problem? Does science disagree with the Bible? Well. It is a paradigm thing. A paradigm is a philosophical or theoretical framework, including a distinct set of concepts or thought patterns. You could simplify this to me in a distinct way of looking at the world. We've already seen that the science paradigm deals with the observable, measurable world and fueled really by repeatable measurement. But the paradigm of the Bible is the account of a person who is beyond natural God interacting with a natural world, and the Bible's [00:16:00] paradigm is fueled by faith and revelation primarily through God's word. Now, obviously these are two very different viewpoints and the paradigm that we have or use. Totally shapes our interpretation of what we see, what we observe, what we experience. There is a limit to which these two paradigms can agree. It's very difficult, uh, to see the world through a lens of faith in God's purpose and power. And at the same time demand that everything that's real must be proved. And even more than that measured otherwise you don't believe it's real. It can also be challenging to see the world through the lens of explainable natural laws, and at the same time believe in a dimension where those laws are floated and the supernatural happens like a person dying and coming back to life with no apparent human intervention. And this is where [00:17:00] that conflict, uh, between Bible and science can come in. One of the main barriers to this meeting of perspectives or paradigms is the dependence of science on empirical measurement. An analogy might be to bring to mind a wonder goal, a goal you may have witnessed, the kind of one-off bit of brilliance that you'd find hard to believe happened unless you'd seen it. You barely believe your eyes, to be honest. The sort of goal that if you replicated the exact same Crowd, whether players, opposition, positioning, ball type, that you could probably never, ever achieve again in quite the same way. Now, in the absence of a recording, science would say that goal is theoretically possible. People can head the ball, [00:18:00] people can kick the ball. Defenders can fail to intercept headers, but we haven't been able to repeat the observation. I, we've never seen another goal like it, despite trying, we've tried to reconstruct it. So it was probably a bit of a kooky result, very unlikely to be real, taken to science's. Logical conclusion. Lack of measurable evidence would suggest the goal described is actually scientifically impossible. Quite possibly didn't happen at all. It was a fantasy, A myth made up only believed by gullible people. Those who are there might even start referring to it as a miracle goal. So the problem you see with measurement is that if you weren't there, if you don't trust the eyewitnesses, your paradigm of measurement does not allow you. [00:19:00] To stretch outside and because of the difference in paradigms, I think there are two main areas where science has developed a problem with the God of the Bible, and Christians have become hostile to science in some cases, and these two are the Origins of the earth and the nature of what it is to be human. So first in it Origins and the Bible says in Hebrews 11, by faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command. So that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Colossians one 16, it says, for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created. Through him and for him, God is the creator and his creation includes things that are visible, observable [00:20:00] in four dimensional space, but also things that are not. On the other hand, science would say we have no verifiable account or recording of the start of the universe. We can't consider a supernatural being. It's outside our paradigm, so we need to find another explanation. Now, we've discovered a load of measurable, repeatable mechanisms that theoretically could have resulted in an expanding multitude of diverse particular matter that we call the universe. We've mathematically modeled a process that does not flat out the natural laws that our view of the world is limited by, but also we have to, we have had to update those laws to accommodate our theory. There is more to explain and understand about the whole. Origins, but we are confident that we will eventually explain it all quite rationally through testing these theories in greater and greater detail. So you got a lot of [00:21:00] science thrown at it to try and explain what the Bible says was created. Okay, what about humanity? So, and we've already seen that the paradigm of the Bible is that people were created by God, made in God's image. IE they were special compared to all other life and they're loved by God. But the Bible also describes that people's intent is not always pure or right what the Bible calls sin. And that not living according to the pattern Jesus lays out in his teaching can get a hold over us. In fact, sin is the central human problem for which Jesus is the answer. I don't think you'll find many people that don't recognize some element of good and bad in people's behavior or recognize an overarching moral code as laid out in this scripture. In Mark, [00:22:00] what does science say? Well, science would say that the world is a mechanism of objective forces and processes, and all life has arisen by chance with humans being just another animal only differing from other species by their complexity. Evolution is values neutral. It doesn't inform right or wrong. It doesn't create right or wrong. It just is. And this view makes the idea that people should behave any different from any other social creature, a little bit meaningless. Morality has no place in such a system. Theft and murder could be classed as natural responses to people's primal urge to survive and dominate for the sake of their own family, their own genetic legacy. So you see the Bible's talk of sin of general concepts of right and wrong, of the need to address morally corrupt behavior can be dismissed as unscientific. The idea of a righteous God [00:23:00] providing moral leadership, embedding a conscience within our very makeup as humans also becomes meaningless. And if sin is a made up con social construct, then the need for a savior is also rubbish. The idea of needing to say sorry to anyone doesn't easily fit in a science paradigm, let alone to God we don't even believe in. So you can see that quite quickly. The whole narrative of Jesus is irrelevant in a purely scientific paradigm. So what do you think? Does the evidence stack up? If you were to take all the available observations as a scientist, consider all the evidence, would you conclude that anything goes, that taking any moral stance is meaningless in the logical scheme of things? Why do you feel an almost physical revulsion when you hear of a [00:24:00] particularly twisted crime against, say, an innocent child? Why do you expect to be treated with fairness by others, even by complete strangers? Why does self-centered words and actions spoil your relationships? And why does making up after an argument make you feel so good? Actually, the paradigm of science can be very limiting. It seems to offer an alternative set of views that don't require God, but quite quickly runs into territory, which doesn't make sense if you're to take those scientific perspectives to the logical conclusion. In the end, there's not a great deal of hope in the purely scientific view of humanity. So for many, the response is to begin to look for answers of purpose elsewhere. For instance, in the Bible, for others, they try to find [00:25:00] answers within that scientific paradigm. They stretch it as far as it will go. Hypothesizing the societal benefit of having a moral code, or even I've met a professor studying the evolutionary benefit of belief in God without actually any belief in God, but trying to find a scientific mechanism which might explain. Some of the things we observe in our society. For me personally, if the evidence doesn't fit, you need to change your paradigm. I want to finish with one example of this apparent paradigm battle in the area of evolution because actually there are plenty of scientific facts that sit easily in both boxes. And again, no time to do justice to a huge area of research on one side, debate on the other. Um, just putting this out there to provoke thought. So my example, DNA is [00:26:00] incredible. It's constructed from a molecular alphabet of just four letters, four related, but different chemicals. The infinitely large number of combinations that can be written give rise to every single living thing on this planet. In all its incredible diversity, just four letters, the molecular machinery that copies DNA, and that allows cell division. And basically growth, which is a hallmark of every living thing, is estimated to be around one mistake made in that machinery in every 10 billion nucleotides red. And that's like taking one step out of line in a continuous walk along a straight line, the equivalent of walking 330 times around the whole Earth. It's [00:27:00] pretty accurate. Now, thanks to scientific discovery, DNA sequences can be read like a book, each one of us having a completely unique signature. And as we get better and better at reading sequences, we see more and more complexity as to how this very simple design of four letters in DNA gives rise not only to life as different as a jellyfish is from an elephant, but also how little changes in the code can enable all living things to adapt so an insect becomes better and better. Over many generations are pollinating a particular shaped flower or a bear develops over many generations, thicker and whiter fur to adapt to life in the snow rather than in the jungle. So how might the paradigms of science and the Bible interpret this knowledge and these observations? Well, please remember, it's a massive oversimplification, but science is a [00:28:00] paradigm that depends on measurable things and excludes the beyond supernatural God. So DNA gets slotted into that worldview. Here is a potential mechanism that could explain the diversity that we see without the need for any intelligent creative force. But the challenge is that DNA mutation ends in disaster, and the overwhelming majority of cases, it generally results in the loss of genetic information, not the gaining of new information and the emergence of a better version of a creature. The only way the larger theory of evolution makes sense is if there is eons and eons of time available. And to be honest, even then, it is a stretch to get that amount of diversity purely through that mechanism of adaptations through mutation. The Bible paradigm would say God created it, and if I may say so, God, what a fantastically [00:29:00] elegant and efficient design to ensure not only massive diversity of life, but flourishing life as it continues to adapt. To new environments. Being stuck in a paradigm tends to lead people to try and explain away rather than actually look at the evidence and ask questions. Many Christians do this trying to find excuses for fossils, et cetera, because they think it disproves God. Science does it all the time. Trying to justify what survival benefit, an appreciation of beauty or helping a stranger on the other side of the world might bring. We find it so hard to stretch outside our paradigm, so we try to explain away what we can't explain just using it. But in the end, and just as those first Christian pioneers of science set out to do si scientific discovery often just shines a brighter light on the absolute wonder of [00:30:00] creation. And this is the science faith space that I inhabit with great joy. I feel like there's so much more to say, and I hope not utterly lost you, but I want to finish with a verse about the very essence of God, and that is love. One Corinthians 13, verse eight says, love never ends. As for prophecies, as for tongues, as for learning, as for theories, as for textbooks, they will pass away. They will cease. As for knowledge, it will pass away. But love goes on. Matt: Thanks, will. What a great talk. I hope you, uh, I hope you enjoyed, now that I have to be honest with you is the third time I've heard will do that talk. Uh, and it just keeps getting better and better and better. So, uh, I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you got a lot out of it. If you are on the live stream, we are gonna do Conversation Street. So if you have [00:31:00] any questions, comments, thoughts, ideas and all that sort of stuff, uh, you can post 'em, whether you're on Facebook or YouTube. Uh, do let us know 'cause I will be back with Will to chat through what he was talking about in just a second. Uh, but first we are gonna have a time of worship and reflection. That's what we call it. Here's basically where we play, uh, a worship track. And you are more than welcome to join in and sing along and enjoy it if it's safe and you are able to do so. Uh, obviously, you know, uh, but to join in the worship and if, if you're not used to the singing and all that sort of stuff. Just read the words and let 'em sort of wash over you. This particular song is called All Creatures of Our God. And this song talks about creation, praising God, which I think is a great song to follow Will's talk. And this whole idea of, you know, God creating all this amazing and wonderful and beautiful and awesome stuff, and that creation gets to praise him and worship him. So, [00:32:00] uh, do join along with this song and then Will and I, we're back in just a few minutes. Here we go. Video: All creatures of our God and king, lift up your voice and with a. Oh, praise him. Hallelu thou burning sun with Golden Be Thou Silver Moon with softer green. Praise him. Oh, praise him. Hall.[00:33:00] D winded, not so strong.[00:34:00] Hall. Let all things that create and worship him and humbleness, praise him. Praise. Praise the, and praise the spirit.[00:35:00] Matt: What a great track by John and Anna Grace there. I love, love that song. I love some of these old hymns. Will, I dunno about you, but these, uh, old, I'm just thinking, I think I last Will: sang that at, at school, probably don't they appreciate at the time, but um, yeah, it's a great one. Did Matt: did they have school when you were a kid? I dunno. Oh, it's brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. No, I do, I love that song and it's, um, it's such a powerful song, right? Will, let's get into your talk because um, there has always [00:36:00] been, as long as I've been a Christian, which has been a fair few years, uh, there has always been this perceived conflict between science and faith. Right? And, um, I, I was always of the, I always said to people, people say to me all the time, there's this, you know, how can you, science is disproven God and all that sort of stuff. And I'm like, well, if that was true. Then you would never find a Christian scientist anywhere on the planet. Right? Yeah. But I don't know all the answers. I, I, what I can tell you is I have a lot of friends who are Christians and who are scientists. Right. And you would be one of those people. So, um, have you, I guess in your life, right, you've, you've gone down this route where you've got degrees that I can't even pronounce Right. In science. And, and have you, have you found that a struggle between the science and faith thing, or have actually, has that just been always totally liberating to your faith? Will: Totally liberating. I mean, I, I, I'm, I'm the same as [00:37:00] you. I mean, throughout my career, you, you get this kind of surprise, this like, when people find out you're a Christian and they, they just can't, like fellow scientists, they go, but, but you are a scientist. It's like a, this complete kind of polar opposite, which is why I was fascinated to, to, to be reading about all those kind of early scientists. So many of them were Christians, so many of them were actually doing it because of the Bible, which I, I, I think is absolutely brilliant. Mm-hmm. But no, I just never found it an an issue. There's obviously, there's obviously lots of theories put forward. I mean, evolution being the big one. I'm a biologist. I know far less about the physics and the chemistry and, and the other streams, but, but in biology, you know, e evolution is, is the thing. It's like we found something that means we don't have to, um, look at a creator. And, uh, to be honest, it's always sparked my interest, but it sparked my interest as a scientist. So like, well, let's look at the, look at the evidence. Let, let's, yeah, let's see how it stacks up. And, and the, the deeper you get in to [00:38:00] evolution and, and you know, very learned. Evolutionists would say that actually there's, there's lots of gaps, but there is this, this kind of faith that. I mean, as much faith as a Christian, to be honest, sometimes more. But like with continuing study, we will find all the answers where we've got a nice watertight case, no supernatural God, no creator. There's kind of faith that it will, it will happen. But to be honest, each layer that's peeled off, uh, doesn't really lend itself after to that. It's like there's more mystery to explain, there's more incredible chance. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so, so I've always found that quite inspiring. You know, I'm not a current, a very current researcher in it. And, and I, to be honest, I, I stopped entering into debate about it. I did a debate back at my old university, um, about three or four years ago. Uh, and I, and I was kind of trying to just encourage these students. It was a load of kind of, um, faith people. Yeah. There was a rabbi there, there was a, um, church of England Vicar. There was a, uh, an imam. [00:39:00] And there was me and then all these kind of professors of evolution and, and they, it was this degree course doing evolution and my closing statement to them was just don't get stuck in this paradigm. Yeah. That's so unscientific. Don't just like have to dis discount all that because Yeah. We just can't believe it. It's like, look into it, keep questioning. And for me as a scientist, that's what I carried on do doing. I question my faith, I question the science. And, and I've never got to that point of Yeah. Of, of unbelief in either one. In a sense. I, I've continued in that kind of, I can see merits in, in both arguments. I think people feel very insecure. So I think many Christians who maybe don't understand the science, feel like they have to kind of disprove science. They have to undercut it somehow, uh, because they feel insecure in their faith and very similar with scientists and I, and I've never felt that. It's like, well, no, I mean, you know. In, in the large scheme of things, they answer very different things and look at different, [00:40:00] the, the two for, for different reasons. I've never felt the need out of any kind of insecurity, either in my faith or as a scientist to, to argue the case to the elimination of the other. Yeah. Um, and some people do that, and if you're not involved in either of sphere, you just kind of take it as Oh, these are but diametrically opposed. Yeah. But I, I just don't see that. I don't, I don't see that being the case. Matt: That's really interesting. I mean, one of the things you mentioned in the talk, and I mean you've just mentioned it, them, is this whole idea of getting stuck in one particular paradigm or one particular filter, which you always look at life, right? You've got to see it like this. And if you deviate from it, uh, it's, you are, you know, heretic or whatever. And that, and that's true of, of scientists, but it's like you say, it's also true of Christians, that Christians almost have become afraid of science. So I hear you in the talk talking about how science, the pursuit of science, its founding fathers work. Christians sort of spurred on by the Bible going, we need to know about this creation of God to modern day, where it's kind of [00:41:00] like there's, I know too many Christians who are afraid of it, who, who, uh, are in, like you say, insecure of it. What, what do you think has changed? Why do you think that has changed over the years? Will: Hmm. I don't know. It's a, it's, it's an interesting question. I, I think people have forgotten the Origins to be honest. And, you know, the, the, the book I mentioned, that's a kind of, that's a theory. I, I, I've not looked into that in any more, more depth to know whether that's watertight. You know, there's plenty of scientists that weren't Christians early on. Um, but people have forgotten the Origins. And so I think there's been an assumption that, um, I dunno whether people are just, are trying to find a reason to ignore God. I think that's some of it. You know, Jesus is challenging. Video: Mm-hmm. Christ Will: is challenging a resurrection from the dead. You have to respond to that, you have to respond to forgiveness of sins. And if there's a way to ignore that and keep it out, I think that's probably our human [00:42:00] condition is to avoid challenge sometimes. Yeah. So science sort of becomes cloaked in that a bit sometimes. Uh, and, and people, um, maybe feel like, oh, here's something that can finally put the nail in the coffin of having to respond to that challenge of Jesus as, as it written in the Bible. Yeah. As revealed to the Bible. So I wonder whether there's, there's something in just our, our human nature that, uh, is looking for a reason not to have to address that. And you do come across that. You, you, if you, if you talk to people about Jesus, they can dismiss it quite quickly without really getting into it by saying, oh, science is disproved. And it's like, well, I've never looked into that. Uh, or have you ever really considered Jesus? And, and it is kind of an easy. Oh, that's a very convenient way just to kind of ignore. Yeah. Um, any, that might be about the way I live, for instance. So I wonder whether it's part, partly that, but a lot of it is, is probably just ignorance on, on both sides. People don't really understand the science they, they take, they take people's word for, for it and, and perhaps [00:43:00] they never really looked into faith. So, um, just feel like people are threatened by those early people were to come here and, and what they'd make of our current culture and this kind of divide between science. I think they'd look at it and go, Matt: what were you on? So do you think, um, do you think, uh, sort of fellow Christians are threatened by science? Will: I think people are. Yeah. Um, and, and for me that's, it probably shows quite a narrow sort of faith if you, if your whole faith in Jesus is based upon whether you can. Prove it, measure it, et cetera, back into that scientific paradigm. Mm-hmm. I'd probably suggest that you need to find some wider, some wider influences into that faith. Mm-hmm. Um, but when people get very narrow and it just becomes an argument about the proof of the existence of God, which is kind of a fruitless debate. Video: Mm-hmm. Will: Um, but people do get very, very targeted on that. It's like, I have to prove that God exists somehow. I mean, there is some really interesting work of trying to use [00:44:00] scientific method to prove the miraculous. For example, um, there's been papers done about, uh, people recovering from illness quicker when those people are praying for them than not, and doing it as a proper scientific study. Fascinating. I I'm not sure how solid the evidence is there is that there seems to be some evidence there that, that people are being prayed for do get better quicker. Uh, and so many Christians have kind of have tried to use the scientific approach then to, to prove God. But I wonder whether that's, you know, do, do you get what I mean? It's like if your faith in God is only focused on that very narrow, can we prove God exists or prove he doesn't exist? That that for me is quite a narrow basis on which to have faith. Yeah. My faith in Jesus is much more around a load of experience, a load of understanding, a load of logic. If you read the Bible, look at the human condition, it's very rational. There's, there's a rational need for salvation. There's a, there's a, a rational, um, [00:45:00] ex explanation, the Bible in, in a sense of, of where evil comes from. Um, there's logic that makes sense as well. And so, and so you, you need to be looking wider than just that. But I think that's where the threat comes. It's like, yeah, if, if we, if we can't dismiss, we can't undercut science somehow it's a threat to, uh, to reality of God, which I, I don't buy, to be honest. Matt: I find that one of the, um, one of the hallmarks of, uh, modern day. Living or modern day society is, if I don't believe the same way you do, I'm canceling. You do. I mean, the whole cancel culture thing, right? Yeah. So if you are a Tory, you can't be in the same room as someone who votes labor because that's just wrong. And it gets, and the, and the spread becomes even bigger in the states, right? Uh, the left can't hang with the right. You just can't do it. Or there's gonna be, you know, someone's gonna die in the middle, right? Because they're so eminently opposed to each other. And I think, I think there's a lot of error with that way of dealing with things, but I [00:46:00] think I see that in the church and I see that with the world of science and it's almost like the two sides have become a loggerheads rather than, one of the things I thought you did so brilliantly was not to cancel each other out, but to go, well, hang on a minute. One, are we talking about the same thing? And two, fundamentally you can find God everywhere here. Yeah. You know, and I, I, I absolutely love that. One of the questions we have here is, um. Do the science colleagues you've had over the years believe in God or not, and what are the reasons they give for their beliefs? So I'm, I I, I dunno, I assume you have Christian scientist friends, and I assume you have scientist friends who aren't Christians and, and, and what are the, the, yeah. What's their thinking? Will: So I think those that, that don't believe have on the, on the mostly not considered it or, or perhaps being, sort of encountered the Bible and God in such a way as from that very defensive position. And so as they've kind [00:47:00] of explored a career in science and discovered science, and it's, you know, it's, it drives them. It's like they, they, they love it. There's this kind of assumed disconnect and it's like, well, the Sunday school I, I went to, or if that's our experience of faith or whatever, said that all science was rubbish or, or evolution with this, et cetera, et cetera. And so, and so they kind of just distance away without really following on with it. Um. I think for those scientists that are Christians. And I, I think the second point I was making actually about the revelation in the Bible that people matter is a, is a massive one, and you, you will find people who are really motivated by wanting to make the world better. Video: Yeah. Will: And in purely evolutionary thought, there's not a lot of. And there's not a lot of reason for that to be, it's all about, it's all about tribe. It's all about you look after your own, you protect your own genetic material effectively. Mm-hmm. You want to extend your family to, to dominance. Wanting to help mankind in [00:48:00] general. As I said, there are, people have put forth various theories about why that's ev evolutionary benefit, but on the whole, there, there's not that in that kind of purely science. So a lot of, uh, scientists who are Christians are motivated by their love of God and God's love of people to then explore using science, um, how to better people. And that, and that would be that. I mean, a, a lot of that is in health research. Mm. Um, and, and medical, which is kind of the field I'm, I'm most familiar with. Mm-hmm. Um, but, but it's interesting that the, the, the ones that are very kind of opposed to the idea of God and particularly the idea of Jesus, um, they get a lot more. Heads up about it, if you like, Christians who are scientists, just like it's the problem. Yeah. It's like, well, why is there even a debate? And, and quite often you'll find 'em not really entering into debate. 'cause it's like, this is a, a debate based on upon a, a wrong assumption from the start. And it's not really gonna get us anywhere. Which is, which is very much my experience going back to my old university of like, [00:49:00] why are you bringing us all in to debate this? Um, but, but it's, again, it's like this. When you've got a very fixed paradigm, you wanna explain things away and, and there is a threat from faith and there is a threat from morality actually. It, it that there's no very clear biological mechanism from morality. Mm-hmm. And so you feel like I, I need to explain this away to, to keep my paradigm secure and, and my experience, this is a generalization, but my experience is that, that scientists are more likely to be against, you know, uh, debating against any kind of faith than, than Christians who are scientists who just like, what, what's the issue here? Hmm. Matt: That's really interesting. That's really fascinating. Do you think, um, if you fast forward into the, I mean, if, if I think, well, the scientific discovery that has happened during our lifetime has been immense, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean, properly immense and, and some of the key things that have happened around DNA [00:50:00] research just totally blow my mind. Right? And I, you understand my knowledge is very limited. I do know the head of the Human Genome project, um, he was an atheist, became a Christian, didn't he? Will: Right, right. No, I I didn't know that. Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's, he is been on, um, he's been on Alpha to talk about it. Right. He's written a book about it as well, and the, the name of his book escapes me at the moment, but it, it will come back to me. Um, but it's, you know, it's sort of like DNA is a language of God kind of thing. And it's like, how, how DNA, uh, you know. Is actually a language in itself, you know? Yeah. And so to, because it is a language, it needs someone to have created that language. It can't just magically appear out of thin. Um, for those, you talked about DNA being four letters in effect. Um, but I can imagine for a lot of people listening to it, they're like, they've heard DNA and they've heard of things like DNA evidence. They don't really know what it means or why, why people get so excited about it. So without getting [00:51:00] too sciencey, go, Will: what are you asking? Matt: Just what, just explain what DNA is and why both Christians and science get excited by it. Will: So, so, so, DNA, it's got these two strands in every cell. And these, the alphabet that I was talking about, it kind of corresponds. So A corresponds with TG corresponds with C, and you've got these two strands. And when a cell divides those two strands separate. The cell makes a new copy on both sides. So it's basically you got two identical copies of what you had before, and then that separates into a new cell, two new cells. So if you think about a baby developing in the womb, that's, that's what's going on. Video: Mm-hmm. Will: All the time. It's like DNA is separating, cells are being created, and over time those cells begin to diversify into, into brain, into foot, into heart, into whatever that, that, that is the mechanism of growth that underpins every single living thing. But it's the same stuff, it's the same alphabet in those [00:52:00] two strands from a, a bacterium to an elephant. It's like it's exactly the same model. Now there's only a portion of those strands that actually mean anything. So you, you can actually kind of translate it into, say a word that's called, that's, that's what genes are. You, you translate it in something that means something and makes something in a cell or in a body. Mm. And there's a load of stuff between which has never really been, which was always thought of as junk. And partly the thinking around, um, evolutionary development is that we've got all this kind of spare stuff that, that animal, that as evolution goes, it can call on some of this junk and therefore bring all this kind of infinite recombination of that. So when, when those two things separate, if one of the copies is slightly different, it might form a slightly different thing from. It was supposed to, and that's basically mutation. Um, but as we go on, as we understand through the human genome projects and others, more and more, all [00:53:00] that supposedly junk, DNA is actually absolutely vital. It's, it's about the way it's kind of structured in the cell to make sure that genes are copied right and read right by a cell, and, and it can, it can begin to turn off and on on genes. So actually, although it doesn't really code anything, all that stuff between the genes is really, really important. So again, you look well if you start mutating that the likelihood of of getting enough mutations to create a new viable living thing, rather than just destroy. And we know, you know, a lot of genetic diseases are very debilitating. They don't create a new super being. They create something that's, um. That, that is not able to function in the, in, in quite the same way. Um, but the whole theory of evolution and, and, and DNA is based upon the fact these mutations are beneficial and you get enough of them at the same time to start creating completely new life forms, you know, over [00:54:00] eons and eons of time, literally. But actually, as, as people are looking more and more into DNA, you think, no, all this stuff is, is useful. It's not just the genes, it's, it's all the other stuff as well. And you begin to question, um, that whole. Process of, of mutation. But for me, you know, if you were gonna design a system that allowed the diversity of life and, and the, the use that, you know, the movement of animals and living things into new environments and adaptation and all that. Well man, DNA is just brilliant. Love it. It, you know, it leads me to think, God, God, you're amazing. But, you know, I, I have to say, I'm, I'm not, I'm not active in that research and, and I'm, I'm not even keeping up with it. So, you know, I'd be really interested in people's comments and, and, and pushback on that and say, well, yeah, let's, let's talk about it. Matt: Yeah. No, I, I, I, I liked what you said in the talk. I wrote it down here. God, if I may say so, what a fantastic design. Will: Really. I'm just, and, and that's what got me, you know, when I was doing my degree, every [00:55:00] lecture was just another wow. And it really caused worship in me. That was my, literally my response going to university of like, this is fabulous and that. I remember that years ago when, you know, we knew a fraction of what we do now. It, it is incredible. The whole exploration of life is. It is brilliant. It's incredibly rewarding. Matt: Well, listen, uh, I just thank you so much for taking the time to do the talks. It's been great chatting to you some. I've really, Will: really enjoyed it. Matt: Yeah, yeah. I, I, I said to you this morning, it feels like you could probably do a five hour series or something on this. I'm just take it. Yeah. Because it just feels like, like a lot of these topics that we're covering in this series, what does the Bible say about we are just literally scratching the top of the surface. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and so I think the takeaway from today is actually science and faith aren't at loggerheads. And actually there is a lot of crossover and. Just explore the evidence, uh, and, and, and don't get stuck into a paradigm which just [00:56:00] follows everybody else. The amount of people that say to me and have said to you, well, science disproves God, it's like, well, how's it done that you, you can't Do, you know what I mean? Just explore it, think about it. Uh, and, and you never know in the midst of it, like will, you might find actually the wonder of God, uh, in, in the whole thing because it is, it's just extraordinary. So thank you. Will really, really do appreciate it. Um, I was gonna ask you what's coming up next week, but I've just realized I've not actually told you, so You have no idea. Will: Well, next week it's what does the Bible say about. Sleep. Matt: Love it, love it, love it, love. So yeah, next week we're talking actually about sleep. Uh, this, um, the reason we're doing, what does the Bible say about sleep? It's one of the big questions that people have. And one of the things that surprised me, uh, well, was at the start of lockdown, I would say 80% of the emails that I got from people were asking me about sleep.[00:57:00] Really? Yeah, it's unbelievable. I, I mean, I was shocked at the actual numbers of emails asking me about sleep from church people and unchurched people just struggling with the whole thing about sleep. So what does God have to say about it? What does the Bible have to say about it? We are getting into that next week, and let me, I look forward to it. Yeah. I am super excited about, like, you are about DNA, I'm excited about the topic, uh, of sleep. Uh, it's just, it's just one of those things, isn't it? So, um, so yeah, no, I appreciate you being with us, will, it's been absolutely phenomenal. Uh, and, uh, thank you for taking the time to share that with us. As Will said, if you've got any pushback, any feedback, any comments, do put them, uh, in the comments. We do still check them after the live streams have ended. You can, of course, reach out to us on the website at www dot Crowd Church if you want. Any questions you put on the website, I will make sure that we'll get some. I'm not saying he'll answer them, but I'll make sure he gets them. Uh, but no, absolutely [00:58:00] brilliant. So what we're gonna do now to close the service, we are gonna play a another worship track. You are more than welcome to, uh, stay around, sing along. Uh, enjoy just praising God with the rest of us. After the song is finished, the live stream will end automatically. So this is it from my, uh, very good friend Will and myself. Uh, have a fantastic week, uh, wherever you are. Stay blessed. Appreciate you being with us. Thanks for staying to the end and uh, will thanks again, but appreciate it. Cheers.