08: When your perfect life spirals out of control

thank you well hello there welcome to what's the story my name is Mel Edmondson and this is a podcast where we hear stories about faith and courage from everyday people and today we are talking to the beautiful Jen who is sat beside me if you're watching this on video uh and Jen Oliver wait we're going to be talking about what it's like when you're seemingly perfect life spirals out of controlling you're faced with things like miscarriage and cancer scares and grief and all that kind of stuff now this episode is brought to you by crowd Church which is an online Church yes it is uh now Jen you know as well as I do right not everybody wants to go to church not everybody likes going to a church building and this is where online Church Works super super well so if you've never been to church before or if you're looking for a new church do check it out crowd.church it is a safe space to explore the Christian faith and the thing that I love about Kraut is it's online first meaning we talk with you not just at you you get to ask all your questions you get to throw all your comments and stories into the live stream so you get to grow with us and develop the whole thing with us is awesome so definitely worth checking out head over to www.crowd.church or if you've got any questions you can email me directly at Matt crowd Church now before I get into today's conversation with Jen just want to mention a few episodes few links that are worth checking out given the topics that we're going to be talking about today it's probably worth checking out uh what does the Bible say about cancer a talk by Annie erdin which is just an unbelievable talk and he also was on what's the story last week the last episode so check out her full story as well and also miscarriage and grief are topics covered by Anna Kettle in her talk what does the Bible say about grief and also she's been on what's the story talking about her journey so do check those out as well but yeah that's the intro Jen welcome to crowd stories uh it's great to have you here thanks for joining us it's good to be here no it's probably worth saying right at the start here that we've both got uh well we've both got head colds haven't we so we might be a little bit nasal and a little bit coffee and splittery but the good news is you can't catch it uh down there down the video camera so we should be okay now let's jump into this before I do let me just read your bio Jen is from the great city of Liverpool where I now live you have been married today for 20 years which is Dave is your childhood sweetheart right uh which is just uh fantastic you've got three kids and the thing which always surprises me about you Jen is given the fact you live in Liverpool you're a big Everton football club fan rather than Liverpool Football Club and for those of you outside of this great City and those of you are not familiar with uh football or soccer as everyone else likes to call it there are two clubs in Liverpool what's that old joke there's two football clubs in Liverpool Liverpool and Liverpool reserves uh and there's also another one called Everton and so there's a bit of a rivalry between Liverpool uh football club in Everton and it has to be said actually Jen that I am uh obviously a Liverpool Football Club fan and um Liverpool Football Club is the reason why I ended up in this city it's a reason why I chose University but I I do love this sort of rivalry and we'll get into that maybe anyway the other thing which people may find surprising about you Jen is you're a bit of an F1 petrol head right yeah except you're a Mercedes fan aren't you I'm a Red Bull fan it's like Everton Liverpool I'm Mercedes your uh Red Bull yeah no no in fact the only commonality we have is the fact that our kids go to the same school I might have yeah mine still go we've got one show we share one class don't we uh we've got kids in the same class and we also work together we have that privilege uh every day except Mondays of working together it took me about four years to figure out that Jen doesn't work on a Monday you know just to confuse me just to sort of change it all around um and the other thing uh which is worth knowing is you you are an avid crocheter right and you have your little side hustle called woolly Treasures which people can find on Instagram and you've made some amazing stuff right yeah yeah absolutely love crocheting I always have a ball of wool and a hook in the car in the bag so just because you just never know you just you just never know you just never know when it's going to strike right so now Zoe my daughter she's big into crochet she's made some really awesome stuff actually so I'm always amazed at people that can do that kind of thing but it's just not me at all so how did you get into it was this like a childhood thing that you carried on no it was I think my youngest Phoebe was about one one yeah about one years old and I think I just needed to be productive for me other than you know like heading kids all day and all that kind of stuff so I just let I don't know what sparked it I just learned one day off YouTube and that was it and it was really nice to be able to sit down every evening and do something totally different okay um but have a result at the end of it which was really good so well that's yeah that's all I mean that's a beautiful thing about YouTube right is you can you can practically learn anything these days uh and you just you just gotta have a go haven't you and so you've got three kids phoeba's the youngest the names of the other two Jared is my middle one he's in the same class as Zoe so he's in year 11 and I've got Adam who is in 6'4 who's looking at universities uh yeah you've got that phase haven't you so um yeah we've now got two at University so it's just a fascinating phase you just you've got to prepare yourself for it right that you know when you're when your kids start going off to UNI yeah my my two boys we were talking about this yesterday my two boys chose Universities at the complete opposite ends of the country uh so they're like five or six hours away from us both of them and they're like 10 12 hours away from each other I'm not quite sure what that says but they're definitely far away uh while still being in the UK um so yeah it's just it's a really interesting phase of life this whole uni thing isn't it so now you are born and bred uh in Liverpool Europe Liverpool uh dude or dudette I don't know what the right expression here is um have you ever lived outside of Liverpool no never always lived in Liverpool for not leaving a few times but never ended up doing it never ended up there so and have you always lived in the same area of Liverpool pretty much yeah same postcode which is uh which is quite funny so you've not actually you've not actually moved from like the sort of three square mile radius or whatever a postcode covers these days no I have traveled far but I haven't lived I haven't lived outside of it before yeah there's sort of this little area of Liverpool so why um why Everton football club is that an inherited thing or was that is that just a rebellious thing uh well no so I have to confess I was raised to Liverpool fan and my dad used to take me to the game when the cop was standing um and set me on the bar and watching the games so I grew up going to Liverpool and then I met Dave who is an avid Blue from a family of many many blues and actually I realized that I wasn't prepared to fly the flag for Liverpool on my own and then had two boys and so I enjoyed football so I just joined in with Everton and now you know that's it I'm probably involved now you're living a life of permanent disappointment character building Max yeah absolutely absolutely it's just vids funny the jokes that go around that's quite interesting though that you started off as a red and you changed because of your husband I'm not quite sure what that what that means or what that says I'm just pointing that out and do listings you can make your own children I loved football growing up and as a young teen and then it kind of dropped off my radar and when I was like late teens so then I wasn't that bothered you know I was quite happy to watch Everton and support Everton but then yeah the people's Club just got to me absolutely uh and totally understandable really um so you've lived in Liverpool all your life uh your parents are your mum and dad both scousers yep um and so you come from a long line of Scouts is your husband scouter yeah uh so scouse it just means born and bred Liverpool by the way uh if you're outside of the city um so you've got a steep history in this city your family your lineage is in Liverpool um and it's fair to say actually uh knowing a little bit about you that the church you grew up in um you are still a member of so it's like you've not moved out of the postcode and you've not moved out of your church right it's just I sound really sheltered I'm not that sure yeah yeah yeah no you're not uh no it's just maybe the way I'm asking the questions it's leaving it down that road um but it's it's it's it it interests me because I'm I I have a different story right and this is um this is what interests me is actually you have this Heritage here um and this Foundation here which not many people attest to these days uh they don't they don't have that and I find that quite fascinating and so as you grew up um did you grow up in a Christian house I did yeah so mum and dad both Christians yeah so their families weren't Christians but like many kids growing up probably in the 50s 60s parents often sent their kids to church activities didn't they even when they didn't necessarily go to church they might have believed in God but they didn't go to church so my mum and dad were sent to you know like Sunday schools in different churches and then they joined youth groups which is like the next the next thing and they met in the youth in the church that I go to so they got together probably about a similar age that Dave and I did and got married and stayed in that church my dad actually went away for University um came back they settled here so yeah well so your your parents met in the church you go to um they started courting in the church that you go to they were members in there they have a family you grew up in that church and now your kids also go to that church right yeah and that's again there's a Heritage there that I don't see a lot of uh these days if I'm honest with you I I this is definitely not my story do I mean and so this is this is what fascinates me and I I quite like it if I'm honest with you it's it's quite amazing so your your parents stated when they were young they got married um so the the church that they went to where the kids activities the church what's the church you'd now go to what's it called I go to Bethel Church um and so you go to Bethel Church uh was it always called Bethel Church yeah um and so your parents go to Bethel Church um and uh they is Bethel Church then like an Evangelical style church is that why they sort of became Christians there yeah yeah lots of kids work lots of you know stuff for youth quite Evangelistic to the the area around it yeah okay so you then grow up in a Christian family um uh like many people uh in church who grew up in a Christian family but I so and like everybody we've talked to on on what's the story so far in terms of the the grown-up in a Christian family was there a point then where you had to make a decision for yourself actually no this is for real this is uh this is for me yeah yeah there was I think there's two significant times I can remember so um not only did I go to church was brought up in a Christian home I went to a Christian school as well the same school that my kids are in and you always have gone to um so actually there was quite a you know there was quite a connection between Church home school the things I was taught it was all quite natural to believe in God it was you know I didn't really question that there wasn't a god it's just I accepted what I was taught it was just quite normal to me but I like you know kids that go to church that brought up in church I went along to the kids activities at my church and I remember um there was I think it was Christmas time I can't fully remember the details I was about eight and I remember being in a kids meeting we'd played games you know done all the normal kind of stuff you do um in kids activities at church and then we were listening to um a story at the end and I can't tell you what the person was talking about I just remember feeling really uncomfortable because I felt like he was talking just to me um and I didn't want to listen because I knew what he was saying because obviously when you grow up in church you know that Jesus died for you that you know you need to make a personal decision are you gonna follow Jesus but I didn't want to listen because I knew if I listened I'd have to do something on the back of what I was here hearing I'd have to respond in some way so I just tried not to listen I was just thinking I can't wait for this to be over which was really strange because I loved Church things and it wasn't that I disagreed with anything I just felt really uncomfortable I felt like a chaining inside um and then at the end I was waiting for my dad to pick me up and before I knew it I'd walked up to one of the helpers and said I'd like to become a Christian um and so we prayed together and um that's when I gave my life to God um and nothing dramatically changed because obviously I was I was you know I was quite a good kid it wasn't that I had a major life change I was eight years old but actually for me that was a pivotal moment where I was like yes I've I've become a Christian you know not because my mum and dad are not because my brother is but because you know for me and then I carried on living you know growing up um in this in the church in my school I had a great group of friends everything was quite straightforward but then it came to the age of about 15 and 16 and um I had to decide right if I'm gonna do this I'm not going to do it because my mum and dad are Christians because this is what you know I do I'm gonna do it because this is what I'm gonna do and if I'm gonna do this I've got to be all in you know I've got to you know live for God for me you know myself um so CFS doesn't have a sixth form does it so obviously I was leaving school to go to a sixth form and you know for some kids growing up in a Christian Home who've maybe been through a Christian School that's a point when they can reinvent themselves if they want to can't they you know but for me that was a pivotal moment of thinking right I'm joining a sixth form with people who I don't know they don't know anything about me what do I want to be known for you know and that was you know I wanted to be and obviously I wanted to be late I wanted to have friends but I wanted them to know that I was a Christian and so yeah so I'd say about 15 16 was the moment when I was like right this is it now starting to make decisions for me so God needs to be in this it's interesting that you did that when you it's interesting that you remember that event when you're eight years old uh were you were you gonna I've got to make this decision for myself it's quite an in it's quite a mature decision for an eight-year-old to make if I'm honest with you um you know quite young but then again sort of eight years later when you're sort of 15 16 and you're going off to sixth forms so you're starting to sort of venture out of um the Christian environment that you're in a little bit because it is a I mean CFS is a wonderful school yeah I send my kids there so I I you know I'm a big fan of this sort of the Christian School and you've obviously you grew up there and I think when you grew up in that school it was very different to what it is now how did you in fact on that topic how did you find it then growing up in a Christian School what was what was it like for you I mean I really enjoyed it it was quirky it was I liked school I had a really good group of friends I wasn't you know me I'm not a rebellious person you know I just kind of I'm a real keeper I am I enjoyed being known um I did even even at that age being in school I did appreciate the differences between CFS and other schools I had lots of friends in other schools and I just remember thinking I'm so thankful I'm in the place I'm in um and I think what struck me most was when I went to sixth form I actually realized that CFS had really taught me and probably home in church as well that my identity was not in my academic ability that you know God loved me for me yeah and and I think that is really important for for young people to know that you're you know your worth is not in what you achieve when Society basically the school system is all about what you can achieve isn't it yeah and actually there's so much more to life and I think that really struck me when I went to sixth form if you know the jump between gcses and a levels is quite big and I watched people around me crumble when they weren't getting the grades they'd got at GCSE but I wasn't rocked it didn't rock me they're quite the same I think I just had a different Outlook to those around me which was um I remember that really helped um in sixth form that's interesting uh for those of you listening outside of the UK gcses or exams you take when you're 16. uh and a levels are exams you take when you're 18 and it's your a levels that get you into University I mean it's a little bit more nuanced and complicated than this but just um so your gcses get you to your own levels your A Levels get into uni and then who knows what happens after that so uh you're so you've grown up in this Christian environment you you've gone to Christian School you're which sixth form did you go to to do your own okay and so the contrast then between um a what I would call a state school a state-run school um and uh CFS certainly CFS at the time I imagine was quite Stark right so what are some of the key things that you noticed the sort of key differences um I mean the facilities were so different you know when I went into a science lab in Belvedere there was like water baths I'd never even seen a water bath before you know and you know like it's the fs you got your tripods and your Bunsen out to heat water whereas in over there you had a water bath that you set to a temperature that you put you you Test Tubing you know there was little things like that were very different there was so much available to people in terms of resources um I mean both were supportive environments they were um and I wouldn't say Belvedere just celebrated the academic but obviously it was a very Academic School whereas I guess from CFS I'd been you know my abilities in lots of different areas were celebrated you know my gifts I felt like I had worth as a person and which I did in Belvedere but it was very much you know that academic Focus um was different obviously I think CFS was the same size as the whole sixth form in terms of the number of kids yeah um you know but I did find it easy to make friends I made some great friends I was accepted for me I think I was quite different to lots of the people they were used to but you know you need you know you need to be yourself don't you um and you you prove yourself to people in that way by being a good friend to people um yeah you do and I think also people my experience is that if you're secure or confident in who you are not arrogant necessarily but you know you've got that Assurance um about who you are as a person do you think it then actually there's just something quite appealing about that uh you know there's something quite alluring about it and you and you want to be around people like that um I think you you people either go one or two ways don't they either want to be around it or they want to make fun of it because it's the complete opposite of them they're totally insecure so you have to kind of make fun of it um and so that was certainly my experience watching my kids go from CFS to sixth form and what happened with them in the six forms and um just the fact that they did Super um in the sixth form in terms of you know fitting it and the fitting is the wrong phrase but connecting with people and making friends and um have an impact and I think you're I love this concept actually that you that you talk about and this idea that actually you understood your worth um and that your worth is not based on academic achievement um now it's fair to say Jen or should I say Dr Jen from an academic point of view you have achieved quite a lot right I have I have achieved quite a lot and but it's safe to say that when I was in Belvedere I was not an a student I was the boss of the pile in terms of academics I'd come from being you know quite near the top in CFS to actually being you know not not amongst the cleverest at all you know so that that was a challenge in itself but since then I have I have achieved a lot so yeah and so uh just tell the good folks uh what your doctorate is in molecular biology yeah I just it makes me laugh and I remember I remember a lot of people laugh I'm not quite sure for it to be in something scientists no no it's not it's more to do with me to be fair I I when you say words like that molecular biology I'm just like I've no idea what that means I genuinely don't it's like I could have a stab I suppose uh and so um and actually I remember really clearly one day Jen I tell people this story that when because you came to work for us when was it like four years ago maybe yeah four years ago something like that and you started working with us and at the time we had a company which sold beauty products uh and you came and you I remember one day you I you you had in your hand um a bottle of something I don't know some kind of product that we were selling and you were reading the ingredients of this product and you were pronouncing the words whereas I I look at the ingredients and I go I have no idea what one what that is or two even how to say it right I just I just it just I can't figure that out in my head and so it was when you were reading these sort of ingredients and you were able to pronounce them I'm like how are you doing that and then that's when I discovered you had this PhD and you were in fact Dr Jen and I was like wow that's quite impressive um very impressive actually and so uh it's uh it's it's awesome that you did that so you've you've you've grown up in a Christian School you've grown up in a Christian house you've gone to Belvedere you've got your A Levels um you academically when you started Belvedere you you weren't necessarily at the top of the pub but I assume you did okay in your a levels to get to the next sort of phase of life yeah I mean it's applied for I think really the I didn't really know what I wanted to do you know like I hadn't shown in any particular area you know some people are like from the start they're like I want to do medicine I want to do law I want to do this I want I had no clue and obviously once you start sixth form you're heading on that journey of ucas forms like you need to look around Unis you need to pick a degree you need to apply you need to you know so I did all that I went round open days I still didn't have a clue I quite like French quite liked English quite like science I didn't really know what to do I ended up applying for French and law and applied got the places and got the grades for the place had a place to study and French and though in Manchester got the grades on results day or the next no I think it might have been results day the pack came through the post of all the stuff about the degree because I've got my place and I just looked at it I said I was in the house by myself I looked at it I just thought oh what was I thinking oh my God senseless why on Earth did I think I would enjoy this no offense to anybody that's done law it just wasn't wasn't for me sure and so I remember saying to my dad what we're gonna do I can't do this degree um and back then my kids laugh at me when I say this that clearing was in the newspaper so you'll probably remember this after a level results the newspaper had come out with all the degrees that had places and you'd sit with a pen or a highlighter and circle anything you thought looked interesting and then you had to phone them so my dad just said to me get yourself on a good science degree that'll be a good background you know a good basis for Stuff so that's what I did I circled a bunch of degrees rang round and found biochemistry in John Moores that sounded sounded fun sounded interesting and but I absolutely loved it it was the best thing for me it really was but I hadn't even considered biochemistry in sixth form I didn't even really know what it was I'd done a unit of it in my biology a level but um yeah absolutely loved it and that's what led on to my PhD and so did you go straight into doing the PHD after the degree yeah so we had a friend in church who worked in the school of tropical medicine and and I did my undergrad project with immuno for your dissertation in your final year and he said why didn't you come and do a research project with me and so I kind of got to know people then and he said to me there's a PhD becoming available I am in another department I think he'd really enjoy it so it just it was in the snake fan and Research Unit but I am not a animal fan and it did say on the job advert the PHD advert you know you don't have to handle snakes you don't have to touch snakes you don't have to like them and I was like great I mean so this is again just another extraordinary fact so you know a lot about snake venom right because it's an important topic to know a lot about uh well it is you know because I always come in contact with venomous snakes yeah you get a lot of calls don't you from various people Jen uh I've just come into contact with so you've got your PhD at what point in this journey have you met Dave so I met Dave in between I met him when I was in lower six so when I was about 16 um and he was a friend of my brothers he went to college with her brother um and it's quite funny because my brother Dave must have seen me he was always around at our house and Dave must have seen me one day and I think he was telling my brother's friends and his friends that he'd seen me and that you know he thought I was quite nice looking that kind of thing and Matthew was like you stay away from me well that worked really well like yeah that worked I mean it you stay away from it and Dave obviously didn't pay a blind bit of attention so so how did um how did that all come about did he just ask you out one day or was it a bit more complex so Dave um Dave wasn't brought up in a Christian home but he came Matthew invited him along to the youth in our church on the the pretext that he could meet girls and they were nice girls you know always a good reason to go to church yeah yeah like that and there was lots of footy going on they've like playing footy so um they've came along to the youth and obviously like I said he spent a lot of time in our house as did quite a lot of our friends growing up um so we kind of got to know each other but he wasn't a Christian and so I was not gonna let him know that I liked him at all because I'd made the decision I wasn't going to do anything about it because he wasn't a Christian and I knew I wanted a Christian um from you know as a boyfriend I just it wasn't something I was going to entertain I know not everybody's like that but for me that was just something I decided and I just prayed about it I remember praying I remember one of my friends praying with me because she knew that actually I really liked him um and you know time went on Dave did become a Christian um and then you know I started to let him know that I did like him so we got together when um I was in Upper six okay so yeah so it's about a year 18 months from sort of meeting him too yeah about a year after I met him yeah and he sort of became a Christian and it's fair to say actually um to sort of fast forwarding 20 years obviously you're still married still happily married um and Dave is still uh quite an active member of the church his knee is still going on strong in his faith so yeah yeah so you meet when you're 18. when do you get married we got married when I was 21 and Dave was 23. okay so married quite young um and at this point I'm assuming life is all sunshine and rainbows right yeah to be honest it had been I remember somebody who was a bit older than us in our church one of our friends saying to me one day um you know I think you and Dave are just I think something that has happened and it was like you and Dave are just one of those couples where everything just slapped into place for and you know everything just is I think you're just gonna be one of those couples where everything just works out for you in life and it was it was just in a conversation it was just an observation and actually up to that point you know both of us had passed our exams we'd both got places in University jobs we'd applied for we'd got and we both passed our driving test first time and it wasn't that you know we'd worked hard for those things but we hadn't really faced challenges of that you know up to that point and I guess from the outside yeah it looked like you know we'd put an offering on a house that had been accepted we'd got married we've moved in we'd like you know life was carrying on you know quite easily probably so yeah so everything had been quite straightforward up until that point yeah so I was doing my PhD and Dave was in the police at the time um yeah and life was just carrying on and probably sorry go on I was gonna say life was all sunshine and rainbows but yeah sort of yeah it has this habit of of not being like that for very long no no no no so I think the first the first major challenge we faced was we had we decided we were going to have kids and again that happened really easily I know it doesn't for people it was like right should we have a baby oh okay there I'm pregnant you know it was like okay that wasn't you know there was no challenges and then I think I lost I had a miscarriage early on in that pregnancy and that really flawed us because it just wasn't something we'd even expected or thought about and as you don't you know um we were we were on a road trip around Canada when I had the miscarriage um and it was it was really tough and I think for me up to that point um I'd always achieved um I'd always pass things I'd always done things well I'd worked hard you know whereas this was one of those first key moments where I felt like my body had failed I felt like I'd failed you know something I was you know like designed to do I couldn't do and there was nothing I could do to fix it and that was really hard to take and so um I ended up getting pregnant shortly after that again and miscarried again um you know lots of people say you know miscarriage is really common I think the stats are something like one in four pregnancy hi yeah so actually with the first miscarriage um you know I did think oh it's not gonna happen again you know it won't happen again but then for it to happen for a second time around about the same time um as the first was really tough really tough um because you know like lots of people early pregnancy you don't tell people you kind of keep you keep it quiet don't you till you've got to that point where things you've had your scan or you know decide how people say you're actually battling a lot of these things behind closed doors um just the two of you um and I do remember having the second miscarriage I was at home so I went to the women's and at the time and the policy wise you needed to have three miscarriages before they would investigate and I do remember saying to the consultant um you mean you're gonna make me go through this for a third time because it will happen just to tick a box and she was lovely actually and I do see that as God's blessing she was really compassionate and she she saw this day in day out I wasn't you know anything out of the ordinary and she just said I do think he'll have another miscarriage but I think you've got a clotting problem take a low-dose aspirin a day I think that could work for you if it doesn't come and see us and we'll investigate but she did she was lovely she gave me a hug she was really really nice um and so when I did get pregnant again I took aspirin and it worked I took it for each of my three pregnancies so I never ended up having to have investigations um and I know that people listening might think well it ended well for you you've got three kids now but actually I and I do appreciate I'm so thankful it doesn't end well for everybody you know we've you've had people on haven't you talking about repairing miscarriages yeah um but I still had to walk through that pain at that time when I had those miscarriages I didn't know I was going to go on to have three healthy kids you know um so how did you how did you do because the first time you have a miscarriage you're you're not even in in Liverpool you're in uh the back streets of Canada right we're slightly Canada snowboarding okay wow so you're fat are you with family then or is it just you and Dave it's Dave and I we we'd had a trip planned um and we'd had a great time it was towards the end of the trip my mum and dads were in America on business so I couldn't even get in touch with them because they were touring around on business um but you know there was a hospital in Whistler I was seen instantly I you know I was cared for it was you know it was really it was really tough but actually I did receive the help I needed I received the support I needed I got home you know there was family and friends that knew about it that were close to us you know and I talked to my supervisor um in my PhD they you know I had a bit of time off everybody around me was really compassionate and really kind yeah so how long was it then between this first miscarriage and the birth of your first child what was that time period so I had the first miscarriage in the March April time of 2004 and my first child was born in May 2005. so it wasn't long yeah it wasn't long but it felt like a long time yeah yeah I I mean horrific to go through but the it seems that during that time you're getting pregnant really easily and that's not an issue for you but how are you I mean I have to be honest with you Jen I sit here obviously I've never experienced this myself um I I've never personally gone through how are you dealing with the day-to-day of being pregnant because if you've had two miscarriages already and you're you're now pregnant for the third time you're like are you walking around on eggshells are you how does that work for you yeah I mean I have to be honest that was pretty horrendous and being pregnant with my first not knowing if I was going to miscarry um and people around me not knowing I was pregnant and obviously it you're dealing with a lot of that in inside yourself privately um but those first especially those 12 13 first 12 13 weeks were really really hard and because every single twinge every single symptom everything you you're looking at oh no is this it oh no is this it when you've made it to the end of the day you're like right I'm still pregnant what if I wake up tomorrow you know it's so easy to get carried away with the what ifs um and actually I really learned at that point to literally do each hour each day um and a verse that really stood out to me which has stood out to me loads in my life is and be still and know that I am God because actually there's times in life when there's nothing else you can do other than just to take a moment and focus on God because your thoughts are just explode and you're gonna talk to yourself with worry um and actually God doesn't want that for us you know he wants you know so actually there was times when I just had to be like right I just need to do the next hour and not think about it um focus on something different um and it was I was regularly coming back to God and it's really hard because you it's such a precious thing being pregnant but you're trying to hold it lightly trying to protect yourself um and then you've also got bigger questions if or what if what if I'm not gonna have kids what if you know you can't think beyond that it's out of your control and I don't think God wants our days filled with worry about what ifs um but I think that you know I think it eased once I could feel kicks I could feel the baby moving so I was like okay this Baby's okay this Baby's alive you know but I think even up until when I delivered I think I was still protecting myself that something could go wrong with this something could be around and did that happen with your second and were you of the same mindset with um Jared and Phoebe were you were you thinking all through the pregnancy was it the same anxiety the same worry is the same concerns you had to deal with or was it a little bit easier a little bit easier it was a bit easier um obviously I was still nervous up to that point because once you've had a healthy baby they don't monitor you so I did get an early scan with Adam they scammed me early there was a heartbeat because what they want to know is is there a heartbeat because then if the heartbeat stops something has caused that to stop or is it that a heartbeat didn't develop in the first place you know they like to know that so I did have an early scan but with Jared I didn't have that um because you've had a healthy baby so there's no reason why um and actually I did we did pay for an early scan so I was anxious we did pay for an end scan just to give me that peace of mind and then the rest of the pregnancy I was okay with Phoebe I was fine I think I'd you know I'd relaxed enough to think okay um so how did you deal with the loss of two babies then with the two miscarriages because there's I suppose there's you you've got to miscarriage is an interesting thing in a sense you there is grief and there is loss um there that you have to deal with but you but you you and you you keep going and you keep going and and it's worked out well for you um Anna kettle's story is a little bit different the outcome's been a little bit different but how did you deal with that and process that it's funny isn't it Dave and I are very different character like to talk things out a lot whereas Dave Moore processes things and so there were moments when he'd say to me I can't I can't talk about the you know like I can't do this um or there'd be moments where I'd I would be able to share stuff I had a few people around me that had been through miscarriages who were there if I needed to text them I needed to speak to them and I think that's the biggest thing about miscarriage often if you've had one if you let some people know people suddenly appear around you who've had them and you didn't even know and can say you know I know how you're feeling um you know because obviously it's it's strange isn't it for a woman having a miscarriage is very different to a man yeah the man doesn't physically have the miscarriage but he still does lose you know they still lost whereas I had the physical things to do so I was thinking it was me and my bodies failed whereas Dave didn't look at me like that it was more we've lost a child you know so I think it's it again it's taken each day it's you know having people around you seeking help if you need it um it was quite a short time frame for me really some people go through this for years don't they um and I did keep having to come back to God and hand in things to him because it's all right saying I trust God but then panicking every day yeah well actually you've got to this time so you've got to ask him to take the anxiety from you for that day and it's just too much yeah yeah no foreign so you've you have your three kids right you you've dealt with um the loss of two babies you've got two miscarriages you you come through that um and you and Dave come through that you've got three kids uh does life then return back to being all Sunshine rainbows yeah I would say it say it dared to be a week busy and having lots of fun with them they're starting school you know going on holidays you know like all that kind of building learning how to crochet learning how to create you know introducing them to Everton yep all those all those key things you're supposed to do yeah so it probably was run-of-the-mill we had like little challenges like everybody has but there was nothing major um in life yeah it probably was and then I'd say the next challenge we had was when Phoebe was written in reception I think she'd not long started school so was that maybe 2013 yeah I think about 2013. how old is Phoebe at this point just so people know what reception ages she's four years old so when she was four David been having some um back pain like chronic back pain on and off and you know he's like he'd been for physio and he when he was in the police seat and had an injury that he'd sustained through Riot training um and so we knew he knew that he had like an issue with his back and I think he thought it was to do with that and you know just kind of brushed it under the carpet but this pain was quite persistent and so he um he went to the doctors over it which wasn't like him he wasn't somebody that went to the doctor and and the doctors referred him on I can't remember what what kind of depart you know what specialty they referred him on to but he got referred and ended up having um an MRI scan and so we went to get the results of the scan thinking they were going to say oh it's something muscular there's something to do with you know injury that sort of thing and we haven't really we weren't worried we haven't thought much about it um and the consultant said to us and we've seen something on your scan on your adrenal gland on your kidney um and it's probably just assessed it's probably just a fatty lump it might not be the cause of your pain but it's probably worth us just investigating and he kept saying it won't be anything serious the loads of people have them but obviously we need to do um a different kind of scan a CT scan so we were like right okay you know and life was busy we had three young kids I don't remember us being really stressed at that point I remember's just thinking right okay so he's getting a scam and he went for the CT scan we went back to the um see the consultant and he said yeah so I'm not entirely sure what this is on your adrenal glands and it's out of my you know specialty now I need to refer you on to somebody else it's probably nothing to worry about it's probably just you know but I need somebody else to look at it so we got referred and again at that point we went you know we were a bit like I wonder what it is and I wonder what they'll do you know but we weren't we haven't thought much of it um so we got referred onto a different consultant in the royalist time and she said she ordered another CT scan from a slightly different angle or a slightly different type of scan so we went back to see her and each time we were told each appointment we went to we were like oh it's probably nothing serious it's probably just this and then we'd go back and they'd say actually it's not that but it could be this you know so it wasn't like we were getting hit with bad news each time it was just you know more information so after another scan we went back and the consultant said um it could be one of two things it could be a tumor um or it could be a different kind of tumor called uh you're gonna you're gonna love the pronunciation of this a Theo and Sono crater so theochromocytoma it could be one of these yeah which is non-cancerous but is a different challenge this is what she said so it could be one of those two things but she said I don't really want to do a biopsy because that's quite invasive and if it's something sinister and I disturb it doing a biopsy it's going to tell me you know it's it's just going to tell me what I know that probably we need to investigate get this this tumor out so she said I want to do one other test and I can't remember exactly what the test was but I remember a phone in after the second this test that she did and she just said it doesn't look good it needs to come out straight away we need to book you in for surgery and we were just like this was in the space of a few months and she was really serious and she didn't strike me as somebody who was dramatic you know she dealt with these sorts of things every day and so he was booked in really quickly to have his adrenal glands removed and totally because you know and they said it might be that you need mop-up you know chemo or radio until we've taken it out we've done biopsies we're not entirely sure so we'd gone from like mild back ache not mild probably moderate backache to all of a sudden facing one of two kinds of tumors one that would result in um extra treatment like chemo or radio or the other option was that it was a certain kind of tumor that could potentially grow anywhere in his body so this could be the first and they could develop anywhere so he'd have to be monitored regularly our kids would have to be screened genetically because they could have inherited it so they might develop them so neither option seemed great to me no no she's not you know our kids were really young um and we were trying to do the day-to-day whilst managing the again the what ifs the you know thinking through the the implications so it was probably about over from about four months to from the first appointment he had to when he went in for surgery having different scans in between and different things so he had surgery and had um his adrenal glands removed so he calls himself a monoglander because I'm a monoglander I don't think it makes any difference but anyway no it's a fairly in joke to be fair yeah yeah yeah yeah so he um after the surgery took quite a while it's quite a long surgery and I remember waiting in the Royal for him to come up from recovery um and the surgeon came up and she said um convinced it is a theochromocytoma convinced she said I've taken these out before she said we'll do the test she said and then we'll get him booked in for the you know like um monitoring we'll have to sort out about getting your kids referred so I was like okay so this isn't cancer but it's another type of challenge yeah you know and she said yeah she said that we know further treatment needed she said but obviously I can't concretely say that until the biopsy comes back um you know recovering from major surgery in itself is a challenge so especially when you've got young kids yeah and I think that kicked off a load of Health anxieties for Dave because it just came out the blue um and all of a sudden again you know circumstances beyond your that's what we were facing again there was nothing we could do to fix these things we had to trust Gods we had to trust other people we had to just keep living each day and again putting our you know the faith that we had we had to live that out and and so when we went back for the biopsy results we were faced with we were like bracing ourselves for a life of monitoring which he was alive I think it was it would have been fine with a bit challenging in itself or we were potentially facing you know chemo radio maybe extra surgery that sort of thing and actually I mean I laugh now but at the time it was really really hard but it ended up being it wasn't a tumor on its adrenal glands it ended up being from it ended up being lung tissue from when he was developing as a baby in the womb some lung tissue had not had not separated when it's adrenal glands and his kidneys formed and the lung tissue had stayed on the top of the adrenal gland so it was totally harmless yeah probably wasn't the cause of the back pain never we never got the the totally harmless tissue so the pairs was a bit like that that was horrendous for lung tissue you know a bit of a drama queen then yeah but we were you know obviously so so thankful and I know again that kind of story doesn't end that well for us it did you know it was four or five really challenging months but actually at the end of it the purpose were just literally like and breathe I don't want to go through that again no um no it's quite I mean so you've got these sort of two situations having you've got the miscarriage you've got the cancer scare where life is seemingly spiraling out of control and it's not going great it's not going at all how you planned or predicted and I when things spiral like that there's an overarching emotion and fear and anxiety isn't there because you you just you you just don't know what's going on how did you reconcile um this theology that you would have grown up with that God is good and that God is faithful waking up every day having to deal with the fear and the anxiety of of and not knowing of of what's going on yeah I think I think that like you said God is good God is faithless something you have to repeat to yourself this isn't the life that God planned for us is it when he created the world he didn't create it with sin in it sin entered the world and Chaos resulted um so I I you know I wasn't somebody that thought oh God's letting this happen to you know like because I've done something wrong or I've I'm being punished or you know like I wasn't I wasn't into that kind of theology you know bad things do happen in life but God is good through all of those and God is faithful and that is something even if that's just what you repeat to yourself there will be blessings in each day that you can look for from God I mean when I look back over that time we didn't have weights to see Consultants we got scans exactly when we needed them we got the medical care we needed we had people around us to help us and support us we you know there's so many things that could have made that situation so much worse and I do see them as blessings from God and even in the tough times God is good he Grieves with us when we grieve he you know like he's walking that with us it's not that he's stuck back thinking right well this is going to teach them how to trust me that's not God is it you know that's not his character and that's when you do have to um start living the knowledge of the character of God don't you that you know from growing up that God is good God is faithful he can comfort you he's can be a refuge you know his word is full of encouragement he's instructed us as Christians and people how to care for each other in those times and that's when you really have to start start living that out and sometimes like I've said it can be hour to hour it can be day to day and you can fail at it as well and God's still there he still loves you even when you walk away from him you know um he's there ready for you to come back to him to comfort you to help you but again I think that situation showed us both that things happen out of our control yeah we don't control our lives that we can respond to things we can make plans but things will come up out the blue and are you going to crumble or are you gonna come to God and say help me I can't do this alone and help me to to comfort my kids when they know their dads had a major operation you know all those those kind of things it that's when you have to start you know living as a Christian don't you not just yeah it it it goes from something that is just in your head an idea to something you actually have to prove out now and you have to live that life and I you you I I've been around a while Jen as you know and you come a lot across a lot of self-help type stuff both inside the church and outside the church you know will you rise to the challenge and all that sort of stuff like I need to be the all-conquering hero and you know take back uh all this sort of stuff and I think actually sometimes the bravest thing to do for me Rising is actually going I haven't got a clue I don't know what I'm doing good you need to help me please do I mean and actually I'm gonna trust this whole situation to you it's not like I need to solve anything or fix anything because I can't it's like actually Rising here is going no God you are good you are faithful and I'm gonna see your you know the goodness of God in the land that I'm living in to quote the Psalms and it's that kind of um that dogged determination that faith that belief that is full of actually is full of anxiety it's full of um the stress and the emotion of the whole situation it's real it's raw but I think that that to me is is much more than this sort of pretense raw raw do you remain there the sort of uh again all hyped and excited from because some guys on the stage telling me you know you've got the power and all that sort of stuff so I think it's super inspiring in a lot of ways Jen and I and I think um it's part of the reason why we do this podcast is to hear different people's stories and just go that's me um the stuff that you guys will have gone through with small kids um you know dealing with all of that and processing all of that but I know your story that's not that's not the end of it right so um I know that there was also the the passing of your father which impacted your life yeah massively so yeah so do you know the certain times in your life that stand out like Crystal Clear don't they too you can remember everything about a day everything other days are fuzzy but there'll be certain times in your life where you literally remember everything and the day that my dad died is one of those so it was December and the kids would use to finish school the next day and we were booked as a my mum my dad my brother and his family me Dave and the kids were all booked to go to Dubai for New Year so we had tickets to fly out on boxing day to go and spend New Year in Dubai together and it was like a big celebration we'd been looking forward to so it was a Tuesday and and the kids were due to finish school the next day I'd had a coffee in town with a friend and I was buying some bits for Dubai I'd made you know I used to help run a Christian union in a local high school and for girls in the city and we were having a Christmas party that afternoon a dashed home I'd made some treats for that I took them we celebrated Christmas together because they were finishing school and it was all really exciting I went to pick the kids up they went swimming we had loads of things planned Phoebe was going to be in a nativity the next day so in CFS when you're in year three that's when you get your speaking part so far she was gonna be a wise man she's very excited you know it was all all the excitement and Buzz of Christmas you know and like Chris was coming up I had youngest kids so Phoebe would have been what would she have been about seven and Jared 9 out of 11. you know we had all that excitement on the horizon and you know the Christmas tree was up in the house all that kind of stuff and we were driving home from swimming so I had the three kids in the car it was dark and we were at the traffic lights about to come onto our estate and my mum rang so my phone was connected to the Bluetooth in the car so I just answered it never you know just was like hey you're right and she the sheer panic in her voice she was just like you need to come around your dad's having a heart attack the ambulance is here you need to come around and I was like oh wow okay yeah okay hung up literally flew home rang Dave said my dad's having a heart attack get the door open threw the kids out the car jumped in the car and drove around I'm always an optimistic person in life I am optimistic so even at that point I was thinking the thoughts were racing I was thinking oh you know I hadn't necessarily thought heart attack meant death you know like I was thinking oh he's like he's having a heart attack but the ambulance is on the way okay I wonder if you're yeah it should be all right even if he goes to hospital to be out for Christmas you know like wouldn't it be okay to fly you know like that kind of thinking got to my mum's um and my mum and my brother were in pieces because they um they'd had to do CPR on him wow um and even at that point I could hear um you know the what you call it what's the machine oh defib I could hear the d-fib going so I was starting to think oh his his heart's obviously stopping you know you know stairs I could hear it but I kept it but then they'd get it back again I was thinking oh okay okay so you know he's gonna be okay and So what had happened was my dad um used to play Squash like three times a week he was in a squash team um he'd been out playing squash that afternoon he hadn't felt well so he'd cut the squash game short he'd driven home um it's a miracle he got home I see that as God's blessing that he didn't have a heart attack on the road and ended up killing somebody you know and himself he got home he said to my mum I'm not feeling great I think I'm gonna go and get a bath so you know my mum said well you go get yourself sorted out on the bath so she ran the bathroom he went upstairs she came down and she heard a thud and so she found him started doing CPR got my brother around and ambulance came really quickly you know so it all happened so quickly and then that's when I'd arrived so we hadn't talked much about it other than you know like we knew it was serious kind of thing and but even then like I said I was kind of thinking you know instantly we prayed the three of us I did I didn't think much about oh this is it you know this is it for him I was more thinking you know I wonder how long you'll be out of action for when they do a bypass where they put a stent in you know that sort of thing um so they took him to um they took him to the Royal um and again I can remember um I was getting in the car and obviously seeing like and hearing his ambulance sirens at you know moving away from us and hearing them in the distance thinking that that's actually got my dad and you know like she hear ambulance sirens all the time you don't necessarily appreciate that there's loved ones of other people in there yeah um so we followed it followed him down to the Royal and um the doctors came in and said you know he's really poorly he is really poorly we've stabilized him and now that he's stable and broad green will accept him so broad green for people who aren't in Liverpool is like a heart and chest Specialist Hospital but they don't have an A E so they will only accept stable patients so again I was like oh great he's stable okay he's stable that's a good thing you know and they did say the next few hours are critical um by that time the pastor of our church had joined us um and some of my close family had joined us as well um because we are quite a close family like you talked about earlier you know lots of my family have stayed in Liverpool have grown up and then we'll have got married I've had kids you know so there was there was a few of us so we went down to broad green and even on the journey from the Royal to broadgreen I felt sick I really did feel sick but I kept thinking oh you know he's gonna get treatment this is going to be okay it's going to be a long night but you know this is going to be okay and um so we got to broad green and then I have to say that time felt like an eternity when we were there and you know and they put us in like a a side room and you know obviously the more time went on the more I kept thinking of this this might not end well you know this could be this could be serious um and then a consultant came in to talk to us and he said you know we've we've he explained different things he'd done you know they'd put a stent in they'd done different things but he did say you know the next couple of hours is really going to be critical he's in intensive care you know I don't know if he's going to make it you know so then he said when we've got him sorted we'll you know give you a call and we'll bring you up I think Dave at that point came I rang Dave and I was like listen I I think you need to come I don't know you know I don't know how this is going to go um and this was probably like midnight 11 half 11 at night um at this point um and then they did call us up to sit with him and they basically said we you know he's near the end there's not much more we can do I don't know if I've never sat around someone's death bed before um but it was it was really surreal it was like we were watching ourselves um but he was surrounded by all the people who love him the most and our pastor was reading Psalms to him they kept saying to us talk to him your sense of hearing is the last thing that goes and we prayed you know we could we were telling him how much we loved him it was it was truly heartbreaking it really was it like the bottom would fall out of my world totally and obviously at that moment before then I'd been quite optimistic and at that moment I actually realized this was this was it um and walking away from that hospital was probably one of the hardest things I've ever done yeah and because I knew that my life had changed forever you know the Dynamics of our family had changed there was so much last that you don't experience that every day do you so it's it's beyond what you can feel so you actually just go a bit numb because it's too much isn't it it's too painful that sort of loss laughs so I think we got home about four o'clock in the morning we'd had friends Who David phoned who'd come around in the middle of the night sit with the kids and obviously my kids absolutely adored my dad adored him he adored them and having to tell them that he was you know they knew he was sick they've been sat in the car haven't they yeah and having to tell them that you know in their mind Jesus hadn't answered our prayers we'd prayed and asked for God pattern that hadn't happened you know so having to tell them that he was gone was just it was awful um and you know what kids are like in the same breath Phoebe then went so we can't I'm not going to go to my Nativity are you not going to come to my Nativity you know because she was seven years old and they hold like things so so lightly don't they I was just like no Phoebe I really can't you know at that point it was um but yeah it was it was it was a really tough time probably Complicated by the fact that it was right before Christmas yeah so everybody was building up to you know like family time to Happy Times and literally my heart had broken and I just wanted time to stop um you know all through all through from the moment my mom had phoned I kept praying we prayed out loud together we prayed individually all through that night I had no doubt that God could turn that situation around you know I knew he could but he didn't intervene at that point you know um and I had to accept that um it still didn't stop me doubting that that God could have healed him but actually you know my dad was in a far better place and that is not what you want to hear at all when someone you've lost somebody but for you to discover that yourself that's okay you know you just don't want someone to say to you oh he's in a far better place because actually your life has changed forever yeah yeah he may be but I'm not right now in a better place yeah so you you were quite close to your dad yeah really close yeah and actually I'm discovering more and more how alike we were although not in football clubs obviously so when was this Jen this was in 2016. so that's uh six years ago at the time of recording almost six years ago so what of Christmas has been like the last six years is there now an association with Christmas that is not actually this is not a time of Celebration anymore yeah you know that first Christmas it was really hard in a lot of ways obviously we were grieving we were planning a funeral at Christmas time but I also had three young kids um and I didn't I love Christmas absolutely love it and you know you don't want you don't want that to go you know because every day of the year we are missing him whether it's Christmas or not so actually you end up finding um you end up going through the motion so I had to finish Christmas shopping I didn't have the kids presents I couldn't wake up on Christmas morning and be like sorry granddad's died I've got no gifts you know I know that sounds really harsh but you know in some ways it was helpful it was utterly painful the time of year but actually there were certain things that we had to do um so we had Christmas as normal it wasn't a normal Christmas by any stretch it was you know really really tough but we did all the Christmas things you know we bought gifts we gave gifts we had Christmas dinner together we did all those sorts of things um and actually I find December's really hard because as people are starting to get excited about Christmas inside I have that pain of that wasn't like that for us and Christmas is different now but like I said every day is different not just Christmas and actually as the years have gone on I'd say sometimes it hits you harder than others um out the blue will be certain aspects of Christmas that are really painful and you know I'd bought him his Christmas present and I never got to give it you know so it was a bit like that first year was a bit like what do I do with this now you know I've got I've got a Christmas present that I can't give him you know so I do love Christmas still um and you end up developing things that you do and that bring you comfort um and actually there's times when it is really painful and you've just got to sink into that and you've just got to give in to it accept it sit in it for a while you know um got creators with emotions didn't he we can't ignore those emotions and it's okay to laugh but it's okay to just have a day where you're just really sad and you don't want to see people or you want to be you know you want to cry but yeah I I am still a Christmas fan so yeah this obviously has been six years right and this this is I mean it's just it's not a great event is it and you you're Looking Back Now and you can see how you guys dealt with it how you dealt with the emotion of it the support of your friends the support of your church your pastor and the prayer and all that sort of stuff what if you could go back uh and give yourself a bit of advice sort of six years ago what would it have been what would you what would you say to yourself about you know what life is going to be like following from that point on um think it's really important that people know that their grief journey is their grief Journey you will get and I wish I'd have I wish I'd have known that then because you will get well-meaning people um telling you things of how you should behave or what you should do or what will help and they are well-meaning but actually everybody is different in the way they deal with life everybody's relationships with people are different and the way that you know your grief journey is different so if you find it really helpful to do a certain thing do that if you find it's not helpful don't do it you know you don't have to answer to anybody as to how you're grieving um you know so I wish I had kind of I wish I'd have owned that a bit more because I think I felt like I was trying it at times I was trying to maybe grieve how people thought I should or do things before I showed or go along to things because it should be time that I can do that or you know but actually I think we all need to learn to show each other Grace that we're all very different and if it takes somebody a lot longer that doesn't mean they're any less of a person if somebody bounces back straight away that doesn't mean that they're like that behind closed doors yeah and actually I think it's having that understanding I think it's taught me quite a lot so when when you lose somebody people often react to you in one or two ways they will either avoid you or they will say things that they mean well but you just don't want to hear and actually it's okay to just text somebody to say I don't know what to say it's rubbish I'm so sorry that's okay it's okay to just hug somebody and not have words to comfort them yeah it's okay to just drop a meal off and walk away you know you don't have to say something shattering to somebody you're not gonna say anything that's going to make their life any better at that point there's no Silver Bullet right no but actually just saying to somebody I'm here and it's rubbish and I'm so so sorry for you I'm so sorry is it does really help and it really helps and so I I remember at the shortly after my dad died I thought oh the times I've probably said the worst things to people I think you just don't know yeah until you've been through it it says there's no textbook they don't teach you this at school right yeah here's how to help a friend dealing with grief it's not something that you know you you know um but it's actually really good that you've done some um you've done crowd talks on it about dealing with grief and how to help others because like you said we're not necessarily told and you're not gonna get it right either but you know it's better to show up for people and say nothing then either back away or try and make sense of their pain yes yeah or just use platitudes to explain it away you know Christians are brilliant at that because we've got so many of them right and we've heard them all on a Sunday morning sermon uh so it's it's easy to do but um I think the person grieving just wants to turn around and punch you in the face whenever you do it so I think there's there's times uh where you just need to learn just to be quiet and just grieve with people just like the Holy Spirit agrees with people just grieve with them yeah be with them in their pain cry with those who are crying more with those who are mourning I'm always struck actually by stories in the New Testament certainly in the gospels you know like jairus's daughter has passed away and there's a house full of people just mourning and wailing and grieving and you're like that's that's not how England works when someone passes away it's certainly not in the church um so well that's so Jen here we are right uh six years later you've gone through all of these things in life and I'm aware of time here I don't even know how long we've been talking to before um I feel like it's going to be a long podcast but yeah so people have listened this forward what's the one thing uh then you've learned out of all of this what's your message the key thing the key takeaway um maybe that you would pass on beyond what you've said already I suppose in the in the closing minutes of the of the podcast here um I think I would say life can be great can't it my life has had lots of Great Moments it really has so many blessings so many great times but it can also be messy it can also be hard it can you know bring you to your knees it can you know life can change in an instant car in it um but I think even more now that my dad's died I am more confident that The Best Is Yet To Come for the Christian this life is not all we have and my dad was very good at holding this life lightly living it seriously but holding it lightly because he knew that heaven was where he was headed and the best was yet to come um so I think that would be my that would be my takeaway that yes it's good to work hard in this life it's good to you know um work hard at your relationships to try and you know deepen your faith in God to learn more about you know what the Bible says that you know to it's good to do all those things but this is not ultimately for the Christian where we're headed so um my dad heard a story um about three or four years before he died I don't know who told him this about a woman in America who's diagnosed with the terminal illness so she was given three months to live so she went to um meet with her pastor to get all her Affairs in order to pick the songs for a funeral to plan it out to talk about the different you know aspects of when she died and she said to him I have a request and it might seem like a strange one but I really want you to do this for me um and I think in America they tend to have coffins open we don't tend to have that in the UK um and she wanted to have a fork in her hand when she was put in a coffin and she gave him the fork that she wanted to go in her hand and he was a bit like well you know what you want to look at your hand for this is a bit strange and she said um I want people to know that the best is yet to come for me that I'm not sad about dying the best is yet to come because she said all through like her life as a Christian in church she'd go to like you know bring and share type meals in church and there's not always enough Cutlery for like the main and the desert is that so she'd be told keep hold of your fork after your main and she knew that some sort of like pudding or cake something really good was on its way and this just became a familiar thing to wear in her church circles so she said I want all of my family and friends to know that The Best Is Yet To Come for me so whilst I might not be here I'm in the best place ever because I'm with Jesus so she was buried with this Fork so my dad said to us when he heard this story like three or four years before he died I want a fork in my coffin in my hand and we laughed about it but he was like I want and I want you to tell people that I know the best is yet to come for me but I'm in heaven so when he died um when we went to the funeral directors they were like you know we need obviously needs clothes and you know so anything you want to go in the coffin with him so um we gave an outfit for my dad to wear like his favorite everyday outfit and we handed over a fork and they're a bit like brilliant what's this about so I was you know we said to them you know our dad was a man of Faith he loved God he believed that after he died he was head you know he was going to be in heaven and he wanted people to know that the best was yet to come for him so we want him to have his fork in his hand um and actually my brother and I did the eulogy at my dad's funeral my dad's funeral was huge it was packed I mean like six seven hundred people oh wow um and so we in the eulogy we spoke about the fact that he was wearing his favorite clothes and he had a fork in his hand and that he wanted everyone to know that for him the best was yet to come and he wanted them to think about their life like where are they headed do they know God do they know do they not because actually this life isn't all there is and for the head for the Christian you know we live in the the certain hope that when we die The Best Is Yet To Come for us um and actually that's really good for us to remember when we're going through tough times that this isn't the life that God intended for us he's got the best for us yeah when Jesus comes again so that would be my one message well and that's actually um I mean that's that's brilliant I love the story of the fork you know I'm waiting for my pudding for my dessert and I can see your dad walking through the the the Gates of Heaven with his Fork going right where is this heavenly banquet I want my pudding now um and um you know I I think that's that's phenomenal and such a great message The Best Is Yet To Come and you're right with Christianity there is this eternal hope isn't there that the best is in fact yet to come and I think that's a wonderful Legacy of your dad actually um and just a chance conversation that he heard and it's it's really interesting how he heard a story and that impacted him which has impacted you which then was told to another 600 people and it's part of the reason why this pod go on as a result though we know of a few people that gave their lives to Christ or rededicated their lives to Christ because they'd sat through his funeral service and being being impacted by you know by his witness um as well you know so yeah it's a great legacy isn't it and I I think that's very admirable um and you know I I pray I have a legacy you know when I when I do go on to eat my dessert and meet your dad and I I I won that kind of legacy and I think it's brilliant and it's why we share these stories because you just don't know who's gonna hear what and be impacted Jen listen um thank you so much for being with us on crowd stories I feel like we could carry on talking for a long time but it it's been wonderful uh to hear and thank you for being so uh honest and and vulnerable with your story and sharing what you shared um and telling us about you know the miscarriages about the cancer scare and about um about your dad and I I sit here and I think wow life isn't all Sunshine rainbows is it and and we can trust God in the midst of it all um in the midst of the pain and we can sit in the pain and we we don't have to pretend um but ultimately God's still there and the best is in fact Yet to Come Jen thank you uh really appreciate it thanks so uh there you have it uh thanks Jim for joining me today don't forget to subscribe to the podcast uh wherever you get your podcast from us we've got more great stories uh about faith and courage from everyday people lined up and I don't want you to miss any of them uh you can get the podcast wherever you get your podcast from also make sure you come join us on a crowdchurch live stream come say hi in the comments you can find out more information about that uh on crowd Church yes and if no one's told you stay the screen there is just tell me what the next message is uh in case Noah Soldier yesterday you are awesome just like Jen just like Jen's dad and the story uh you are awesome it's just a burden we have to bear it's the way God's made us we are faithfully and wonderfully made so it's just it's just life isn't it really uh what's the story is produced by crowd church you can find our entire Archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app the team that makes this show possible is Sarah Bain on George Stella Robin and Tim Johnson a theme song is written by Josh Edmondson and if you'd like to read the transcript and notes from today's conversation with Jen they will be available on our website www.crowd.church where coincidentally you can also sign up for our newsletter so I think that's it from me and I think that's it from Jen thank you so much for joining us we will see you next time bye for now foreign