Matt looks at this idea of Jesus being full of Grace and Truth. We look at how if just focus on truth, we can become mean and judgemental. Or if we focus on grace, we end up with no standards and believe that anything goes.The way to navigate the divisive times in which we live, we need both grace AND truth - just like Jesus. These are some of the ideas that we'll be exploring in this service.
01Why the World Needs Both Grace and Truth
We live in a world of extremes. On one side, cancel culture demands accountability with no room for mercy. On the other, a "live your truth" philosophy insists that anything goes and no one has the right to say otherwise. Both feel incomplete. Both leave damage in their wake.
In this episode, Matt explores one of the most important descriptions of Jesus found anywhere in Scripture — that he was "full of grace and truth" — and asks what it would look like if we learned to hold both together.
02The Problem With Choosing Sides
The starting point is a verse from John's Gospel, written very early in the book's introduction to Christ: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Not grace or truth. Full of both.
Matt lays out why this matters. If we live in the extreme of truth all the time but never extend grace, we become mean and judgmental. That leads to cancel culture — and it shows up both inside and outside the church. Neither camp can escape it.
The flip side is equally damaging. If we lean entirely into grace, we end up believing it does not matter what we do. God loves everyone, no one can judge me, and I will live according to my own truth — changing it whenever it suits me. It sounds lovely and is very "Instagrammable as a quote," as Matt puts it. But where is the standard?
Jesus was not at one extreme or the other. He was fully both. And Matt suggests that navigating the divisive times we live in requires us to be people full of grace and truth too.
03Grace Saves
The Apostle Paul writes in Ephesians: "By grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Grace is God's undeserved favour and goodwill. If God were only about truth, we would not stand a chance, because none of us can live up to his standard. We cannot even live according to our own standards or the laws of our land, let alone his.
Matt shares a definition of grace that he particularly likes: "Grace is God's ability in us to do those things we don't have the ability to do." It is not about our skills, talents, charm, or good looks. It is nothing to do with us and everything to do with him.
Because of grace, we are commanded to extend it to others — to be kind, generous, forgiving, and loving, even when people do not deserve it. Especially when they do not deserve it. That is what grace is.
"People do not need to behave before they can belong," Matt says. "We don't need to clean the fish before we catch it."
04Truth Sets Free
But grace without truth is warped and unbiblical. Matt turns to one of the most well-known verses about truth, also from John's Gospel: "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
Grace saves. Truth frees. We need both.
To illustrate, Matt paints a picture. Imagine an eighteen-year-old lad. He is a nice enough kid, got his whole life ahead of him, but he sleeps around and has never been faithful to any of his girlfriends. In his mind, it is fine — he is just being authentic to himself. Everyone else does it.
"What do you say to him?" Matt asks. "Do you say keep going, be authentic, no one can judge you? But how amenable are you to that philosophy when his current girlfriend is your sister? Or maybe your daughter?"
The point lands hard. We all have a standard, whether we admit it or not.
Paul addresses this directly in Romans. After spending a passage describing how amazing grace is — how where sin was great, grace was greater — he immediately follows with: "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
Grace without truth is permission to keep doing damage. Truth without grace is condemnation without hope.
05Matt's Own Story
Matt makes it personal. "I know this because I was that eighteen-year-old boy," he says. "I needed grace — and a lot of it. And once I'd received that grace, the truth set me free. It changed my life, it changed my thinking in radical ways."
The encounter with God's grace was so real that his natural response was to change his wrong behaviour. The truth he had grown up with — the one he had created for himself to excuse his behaviour — was nothing compared to the truth of God.
"I'm still my authentic self," he says. "But part of living a life that is authentic recognises that I am not God, that I am not Lord, and that Jesus has a much bigger and better way of living than me."
06Grace and Truth in Action
Matt applies this to the specific topic of sex outside of marriage, acknowledging his current theology that it is wrong. But he wraps that truth carefully.
"To preach that truth without wrapping it up in grace is probably just as wrong," he says. He also humbly acknowledges that his theology may develop over time as he grows in understanding. But standing for nothing, he argues, is worse than standing for something that may not yet be fully formed.
He then turns to the story of the woman caught in adultery in John's Gospel. The crowd wants to stone her. Jesus responds: "If you are without sin, cast the first stone." One by one, they leave.
Jesus addresses the woman: "Does no one condemn you?" She replies, "No one, Lord." And Jesus says, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, and from now on, do not sin."
He did not excuse what she had done — he called it sin. But neither did he condemn her. Grace and truth working together in total harmony.
Matt imagines what the world would look like if we could actually live by this standard. Women would feel safe and secure. There would be no need for the MeToo movement. No pornography, no sex trafficking, no courtrooms full of sexual assault cases.
"On one hand it's a hard truth," he says. "But what it creates, if we could live according to that standard through the grace of God, is something extraordinary."
07The Way Forward
The call is not to pick a side — grace or truth — but to hold both, as Jesus did. To be people who extend grace generously while also having the courage to stand for what is true. To wrap truth tightly in grace, bringing life and hope to a world that desperately needs both.
"Let's aim to be like Christ," Matt says. "Let's aim to be full of both grace and truth."
Where in your life might you be leaning too far toward one and neglecting the other?
Topics in this talk
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foreign church service we are a digital Church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps us live a more meaningful life we are a community a space to explore the Christian faith and a place where you can contribute and grow our service will last about an hour and in a few seconds you'll meet our hosts for our service who will introduce today's talk after the talk we will have a time of worship and reflection after which we head into conversation Street where we look at your stories and questions that you posted in the comments now we want to invite you to connect with us here at crowd church and we've got a few ways in which you can do just that firstly you can engage with crowd from any device during our live stream and if you're up for it why not invite a few friends over and experience the service together you see church is all about connecting with God and connecting with others and one of the easiest ways for you to do that is Join one of our mid-week groups where we meet online together to catch up and discover more about the amazingness of Christ you can also subscribe to our fairly new podcast called what's the story where we Deep dive into stories of faith and courage from everyday people more information about all of these things can be found on our website at www.crowd.church or you can reach out to us on social media at crowd church if you are new to crowd or new to the Christian faith and would like to know what your next steps to take are but why not head over to our website crowd.church forward slash next for more details and now the moment you've been waiting for is here at online church service starts right now welcome to crowd Church everyone tonight um we're joined by the lovely Phil Watson and hello everybody we're your host for the evening say hi Phil hello everybody hope you can hear me my name is Phil a little bit about me I'm in South Liverpool at the moment just around the corner from the world famous Penny Lane if you're a Beatles fan um downstairs are several of my children I've got three one two about to say one's at University the other one went last week so two were away at University but they've both come back because they have only gone locally and I've got a third one downstairs who is peeling potatoes with my wife I should uh hasten to web uh and when I'm not hosting crowd church and looking after kids who are now old enough to look after me I'm a teacher some of the time and I'm also a foster carer who promotes fostering for my local Council Anna that was me what about you brilliant no it was a very succinct introduction to who you are Phil I'm Anna kettle and I only have one child downstairs I only own one child and although some would say he's enough for three he like fills the room like three day um yeah so I have one seven-year-old called Ben and a husband called anzi and I work in marketing Communications in the NHS in my day job and then also obviously host crowd Church on the weekend like this so yeah how's your week going Phil well it's always a good day uh today at this time of year because this is a very strange thing I'm mostly a German teacher and I work in a Jewish school so it's a comprehensive so it's a state school if you're not familiar with English schools but it's run as an Orthodox Jewish school and at the moment we are just about or we have started to celebrate Rosh Hashanah so I should be saying if anybody's Jewish I think you pronounce it Shona Tovar which is a happy and sweet New Year to you all so in the Jewish uh Faith there are a variety of Holiness High holy days are very very important and we start with Rosh Hashanah so the new year which isn't like if you're from a Christian Western perspective where you stay up till midnight set off for Firework and then have a few drinks it's a very religious event and uh so at the school where I worked there was a rabbi given a wonderful assembly on Friday and the bits that really made me sit up was this great idea of you um he's He suggests that God's given us the world and we have to we have to make it as good as we can we can make it better for everybody so um he ended his assembly with your Your Role your challenge is to make life sweeter for those around you like a Honey Dipped in Apple so I don't know if you've made life sweeter for anybody today but you can certainly start as a new idea and you don't have to be Jewish to do that yeah that's so simple isn't it yeah and it's something we've been all day like it kind of reminds me of that thing like you can't change the world for everyone but everyone can change the world for one person just by doing something nice each day so yeah love that so let's uh start looking at what we're doing tonight in crowd church so we are joined by the wonderful Matt Edmondson who is going to be doing our talk tonight this is a new series actually Phil we're starting a new series we're into week two this week and it's the origin series which is looking all at the Gospel of John and unpackaging some of what's in that so yeah we're gonna have a talk on that that we'll be moving to in a minute um and yeah I um and then we'll also have some worship um people can ask their questions and share their comments as we're listening to the talk and have I forgotten anything else Phil that's pretty cool I'm the last person um I just I was just taking my watch off to look at the time but I realized that I want an iPad that has a Time on it that's how technologically inept I am so if you're ever going to ask what's happening next never ask me because even because I I won't know but I'll come up with something else and go I don't know what we're meant to be doing but let's do this instead so it's it's kind of good and bad so it sounds to me like you've got it nailed down Anna and I'm pretty sure it's something like we start a talk roundabout Now by pressing a button Matt does it I think let me start by asking you a question how would you describe Jesus now I appreciate that this is quite a wide question uh but go with me on it right how would you describe him what words would you use if you're a Christian you may use words like good faithful Savior and so on last week John Harding talked about how Jesus is life and if you're not a Christ follower you may talk about how Jesus is possibly intriguing or maybe a good man or maybe even totally and utterly deranged there are so many words that you can use to describe Christ and depending on your viewpoint some of those words will be good and some of them will be bad well here we are at the start of our series origin looking at how Christianity got started probably the world's greatest movement and very early on in John's introduction to Christ he uses perhaps what is one of my favorite descriptions of Jesus he said this and the word became flesh and dwelt among us and we have seen his glory glory as of the only son from the father full of grace and truth that's the phrase full of grace and truth very early on in Jesus's Ministry or in John's writing he establishes the fact that Jesus is full of grace and truth not Grace or truth he was full of both and given the divisive World in which we live where cancer culture is the norm but it is let's be real incredibly ugly and destructive and brings out the worst of humanity we should learn more about these two ideas of Grace and Truth working in tandem you see if we live in the extreme of Truth all the time but never extend Grace we become me and judgmental which leads to cancer culture and this is true both inside and outside of the church neither of us can escape of course the flip side of the coin is to be all on Grace where here you believe that it doesn't matter what you do God loves everyone right and who are you to judge me anyway there is no truth so I will live according to my own truth which is whatever I want it to be at this particular point in time I'll just change it to suit my life there is no definitive standard therefore and you can see how these two ideas of Grace and Truth in some respects can quickly get intention with one another yet Jesus was described as being full of both Grace and Truth he was an extreme in one or the other he was fully both so I want to suggest right here at the start to you that the way to navigate the extreme times in which we live is to be people full of grace and truth so let's dig into it why Grace well Grace saves the Bible tells us that by Grace you have been saved through faith and this is not your own doing it is the gift of God not a result of works so that no one may boast you see here the Apostle Paul tells us that Grace saves okay cool but what is Grace and what does it save us from Grace is simply this it is God's undeserved favor and good will now if God were all about truth and only truth we wouldn't stand a chance because there is no way that in ourselves we could live according to his standard his truth I know this because we can't even live according to our own version of Truth or even the laws of our land let alone his right so we need his grace his favor his good will to sort of stand any kind of chance in life Grace saves and another way to think about Grace which if I'm honest with you I really really like is this grace is God's ability in us to do those things we don't have the ability to do that's awesome God's ability in me to do what I don't have the ability to do and I don't have the ability to save myself Grace saves not my skills not my talents not my charm not even my very good looks right it's nothing to do with me and everything to do with him and that's why Paul tells us about Grace right you you can have it but you definitely can't earn it in any way it is a gift Grace then is amazing and Amazing Grace saves to God's grace is extended to us it is demonstrated in Christ as he is full of grace and as a result we are I think commanded to extend Grace towards others to be kind to them to help and to restore to be generous and forgiving and loving even when they don't deserve it especially when they don't deserve it right because that's what Grace is but to do that to extend that kind of Grace you need lots of God's grace you kind of see how this works right you cannot Escape your need for his grace to live this life on purpose with calling and with meaning it cannot be done so who needs Grace I need it but out of the people that you know who needs Grace who needs you not to judge them right now who needs you to be kind to them even though they may not deserve it even though their theology may be different to yours here's the truth of the Gospel people do not need to behave before they can belong we don't need to clean the fish before we catch it in Christian vernacular you see we belong first and the other danger of course here is just to go along with this idea that if Grace saves if it's because of his grace that I belong rather than my behavior then it doesn't really matter what I do I can just do what I like and get away with it right so why worry about anything I do and just live life how I want to live it live it on my terms so now I can live my version of Truth live a life that is my most authentic self and do those things daily that bring me happiness and joy living true to myself and in many many ways sounds great and lovely and very instagramable as a quote but where is the standard so imagine in front of you as an 18 year old guy he's done okay at school he's a nice kid uh he's got his whole life in front of him but like most 18 year olds he can be pretty selfish at Heart Right his reputation is kind of okay but he sleeps around and he's never really been faithful to any of his girlfriends but in his mind it's okay he's just being authentic to himself everybody else does it why should he not right right why stick with one girl when you can have more what do you say to him what do you say to that kid do you say keep going with it be authentic to yourself no one can judge you right so crack on but how does that help the sting of betrayal that is behind him and are you so amenable to this philosophy when his current girlfriend is your sister or maybe your daughter yeah probably not right because we have a standard the Apostle Paul talks about this idea in a letter to the Roman Church he spends a while talking about Grace and how amazing it is he talks about how where sin was great grace was greater and that nothing can undo or outdo the grace of God as you read the whole passage and you kind of think wow man this is amazing but it's like Paul can read our minds as he writes it because he instantly follows it up with this what shall we say then are we to continue in sin that Grace May abound by no means how can we who die to sin still live in it wow right here Paul delivers a truth that Grace without truth is Warped and unbiblical and live it in Grace is living a life of Truth but you have God's ability in you to do that Grace is not the pursuit of sin when you recognize Grace you avoid sin you know those things that are contrary to the standard of God grace saves so let's look at this idea of Truth you see we spend a lot of time a crowd talking about truth sharing my beautiful beautiful wife and that is true by the way she is awesome uh Sharon did a great job talking about truth recently she asked the question what does the Bible say about truth I would totally encourage you to watch that talk uh in that talk Sharon deals with the differences between objective truth and subjective truth in a brilliant way uh she looks at what that means in a world that preaches but actually doesn't practice this whole idea of Tolerance Sharon also looks at some of the truth claims of Christianity and what they mean for us today honestly check it out brilliant and Jesus liked Sharon was also pretty keen on the topic of Truth uh it's a fact that we can't escape really now perhaps one of the most well-known verses about truth from Jesus is also found in John's gospel Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him if you abide in my word you are truly my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free you see grace saves but truth sets you free Grace saves truth frees and that's why we need both we need both Grace and Truth so back to our 18 year old knocking on your door who's knocking to take out your sister or daughter they need Grace he needs to know that he can belong to something much bigger and much more wonderful than he ever dreamed of and in that place of belonging that place of Grace he starts to get into the word of God the Bible and he starts to see that perhaps sex before marriage is not quite right and treating women as objects to satisfy himself is definitely not right he starts to see the truth that this girl is a daughter of the Living God and should be treated with dignity and respect he gets free truth freeze I know this because I was that 18 year old boy I needed Grace and a lot of it and once I'd received that Grace the truth Set Me Free it changed my life it changed my thinking in radical ways because the encounter with the grace of God was so real and so incredible that my natural response was to change my wrong behavior and yes I now believe that my behavior at the time was wrong and I started to see that the truth I grew up with which I had in effect created for myself to excuse my behavior was nothing compared to the truth of God now I'm still my authentic self but part of living a life that is authentic recognizes that I am not God that I am not Lord and that Jesus has a much bigger and better way of living than me Grace saves and Truth freeze so how does this work in reality right well since I have already mentioned it let's look at this topic of sex outside of marriage Now cards on the table my current theology is that sex outside of marriage is wrong I'll get into why in just a second but for now let's just go along with this is the truth that I subscribe to and I shouldn't be ashamed of that nor should I shy away from it but to preach that truth without wrapping it up in Grace in some respects is probably just as wrong so if you are watching this and you have had or are having sex outside of marriage I want you to know that you are welcome here at crowd church that this is a place where you can belong unequivocally I also appreciate that my current theology may change over time as I grow in my understanding of God's word so what I hold as truth today may change now I'm trying not to base my understanding of the truth on how I feel at the time nor on the general consensus of society Jesus said if we abide in his word we will know the truth so that's where I want to base my understanding of Truth in his word knowing full well that that might be really unpopular so my understanding of the word may change over time and so if I am take if I'm talking to someone who thinks sex outside of marriage is okay whether they're a Christian or not a Christian I know full well that my theology may not be fully formed but that doesn't mean I shouldn't stand for that truth now standing for nothing I think is worse my thinking may be wrong and conversely the person I'm talking to may also change their opinion over time both of us are probably wrong in some ways which is why I have to wrap the conversation in Grace I mean I think we see Jesus doing that in the Gospels you see I believe that Jesus called a Daughtry sin in Matthew's gospel Jesus said this you have heard it or heard that it was said to those of old you shall not commit adultery and here Jesus is making reference to a law from the Old Testament which refers to adultery as Sin and I love the phrase that Jesus uses you have heard it said to those of old that law then was that for a previous generation surely it doesn't apply to Dave it's for those of old right it's archaic and it kind of infringes on my rights to live life according to my truth how I want you can't tell me it's wrong anymore but it's as if Jesus knew how we would think in modern times well maybe it's just the case that every generation thinks they know better than the generation before them right and feel like they can redefine everything Jesus goes on to say in the very next verse but I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to Lust For Her has already committed adultery with her in his heart it's like Jesus is saying yes adultery as a law is a little bit old-fashioned so let's redefine it but I'm gonna make it a lot harder not easier because you now have the grace of God his ability in you to live a better now I read this and see that Jesus goes the opposite way and if you so if I read this and think well if you look at a woman to lust for her then you've committed adultery so most of us must have committed adultery at some point and the rest of us that haven't well I think we're probably lying so this is just one of a number of references in the Bible that leads me to believe that sex before marriage is wrong and I think that just about all of us if I'm honest intuitively know that adultery is wrong it's cheating it's a Breaking of Covenant right so politicians caught having Affairs are dragged through the press and often forced to resign and probably quite rightly so our respect for them drops and we because we focus on their sin because they got caught but when we look lustfully at another woman or man let's be equal right we excuse that but isn't that according to the words of Jesus just as adulterous are our standards high for others but low for ourselves do we as Jesus so eloquently pointed out look at the speck in our brother's eye but ignore the plank in our own but just imagine right what the world would be like if we could actually live according to this standard that I believe and think Christ set what would that do to the self-esteem of women women would feel safe and secure there would be no need for the metoo movement there would be no porn no sex trafficking and no courtroom with case after case of sexual assault how amazing would that be right so on one hand it's a hard truth adultery no look endlessly the woman no but man what it creates if we could live according to that standard through the grace of God is something so extraordinary and we can only do this through God's grace you see we need both grace and truth and not just for ourselves we should extend that too so if you follow along with our readings in John's gospel in a few weeks time you're going to come across a story where a woman is caught in adultery and is brought before Jesus right and Jesus is supposed to cast the sentence for this woman which at the time was being stoned to death granted a fairly severe punishment to be sure so how does Jesus respond what does Grace and Truth look like here Jesus said okay if you're without sin cast the first Stone I think it's a genius response right Jesus actually addresses the accusers the crowd first not the woman he kind of gets them to to look at themselves examine yourself first now of course they all drop their stones and leave because when you really look at your own heart you realize you can't cast that sound to somebody else and it's really quite sobering the woman was left alone Jesus stood up and spoke to a woman where are they does no one condemn you no one master she replied neither do I said Jesus this was Jesus's response it wasn't condemning it was Grace filled nor do I condemn you he didn't shy away from the truth of adultery he didn't tell her that it was okay to carry on living the way that she was living that the law was old-fashioned and she could do what she liked No in fact the very next ones coming out of Jesus mouth are go on your way from now on don't sin you see you didn't excuse what she had done he called it sin that's quite hosh isn't it in some respects I don't know if you get away with that in modern day world but neither did he condemn her and we see grace and truth working together in total Harmony and I think we could all learn a lot from this story Grace saves truth frees we need both we need the courage to stand for the truth and not be afraid of the truth Jesus is the way he is the truth and he is the life but in our standing for truth that is also bring life and Grace and hope to a hurting world we declare we Proclaim truth wrapped tightly in Grace in other words let's seem to be like Christ let's aim to be full of both Grace and Truth thank you you were the word at the beginning one with God the most high you're hidden glory in creation now reveal you are Christ what a beautiful name it is what a beautiful name it is the name of Jesus Christ my king what a beautiful name it is nothing compares to this what a beautiful name it is the name of Jesus didn't want heaven without us so Jesus sin was great your love was greater what a wonderful name it is the name of Jesus Christ the name of Jesus what a wonderful name it is death could not hold you I felt or before you you silence the post of sin and Grace the heavens are roaring the praise of your glory for you are raised to life again you have no rival you have no equal now and forever yours is the kingdom yours is the glory yours is the name of Jesus Christ what a powerful name it is nothing can stand against us wow it's not that was a challenging talk okay what did you think Phil yeah there's so much to think about then you've got any comments chucking into the into the chat it reminds me of before I was a Christian so I became a Christian just before my 19th birthday I think like a lot of people I thought heaven was uh or Christianity was for people who were good or at least trying to be good and often you could see that they messed up and you went ah you're two-faced you keep telling everyone else what to do and you can't even keep to those standards yourself and I think I thought that it says in the Bible about Good Works which is not really a phrase we use is it like doing good stuff gets you into heaven and um I don't get to decide who goes to heaven which will be a relief to everybody listening but when people looked at the queen last week there was this definite feeling of what a great woman who did good thing things and she was a lovely person and was very uh yeah was didn't put many didn't do many mistakes certainly not that we thought about and there was certainly this idea therefore that I saw on my social media and on the news therefore she should be in heaven because that's fair and I don't know if you saw lovely images of of the queen this image of her being in heaven with her husband and with other people that have passed away and I'm and I was you know you're not going to start asking questions on on the day of somebody's funeral but I'm like as far as I understand it the queen is in heaven because she's a Christian not because of the good things that she did um and it it certainly when I became a Christian I suddenly went oh hang on there's this whole thing about Grace and one of the stories that really impacted me was when Jesus is crucified so this is like that's what you know happens on Good Friday there's two other people crucified with him so the crucifixion is the execution of criminals in the Roman times they did it to load to people you know it wasn't just Jesus and and one of the criminals basically he's on the cross he's dying it takes hours it's very painful and he's laughing almost at Jesus going there you idiot you Muppet if what you say is true why don't you get off the cross and the other thief the other criminal says hang on I I think I actually think you are Jesus I think you are the Son of God and theologically this is fascinating because Jesus says something like uh later today so when you die we will be together in in heaven and I always thought that Thief didn't do anything good at all um all he did was acknowledge Jesus uh and you you and and there are other bits in the Bible that would suggest yeah it's important the way we behave the truth but I just thought wow he got into heaven um I've always found that really reassuring when I got all the theology wrong anyway that was my little thing like it makes you feel like there's going to be some surprises when we get to heaven right oh God yeah to be there being there yeah definitely the kind of shows that it's not about well like you say it's not about what you do but it's about recognizing your need for God and and that was the key wasn't it like in those final moments before he died that Criminal he was hanging up who's next to Jesus said you know he recognized his need he recognizes need to be saved um that like kind of knowing your knowing your your need for God is actually the thing that saves you um and allows Grace to kind of come into your life not not doing the right things so yeah that is a challenging story but I I loved what Matt said in that talk that kind of key stand out for me was like Grace saves and tree sexy free I love that I haven't really kind of seen that distinction so clearly before and I think I think yeah that's right and like I mean I think about it like what Grace saved so that's kind of like the kind of kind of what we think of God's loving acceptance of us you know you don't need to do anything you don't need to earn God's love he just loves perfectly as we are um and then the truth part is the more challenging part isn't it it's the like oh but he calls us to his standard as well and I was sort of thinking about it as Matt was talking and for me my takeaway was kind of like thinking about my own parenting about how you know that kind of loving side of being a parent like there's nothing like and I'm sure you'd say this as a parent as well Phil um you know that kind of it made me think of my parenting relationship with my sons it's like there's nothing I could do to like oh there's nothing that Ben could do sorry to like make me love him more or less but it does affect my relationship with him when he's persistently naughty though you know I I mean I admit I have not a huge amount of patience all the time as a parent certainly not as much patience as God has with us but like but like even in that human relationship it's like we know that we have infinite grace for our children that it doesn't matter how many times we they screw up we still love them but it does put more stress on our relationship when yeah with them when they're persistently disobeying us or being difficult like it blesses me more as a parent when Ben just does what I asked him to for his time but I don't love him less or have let you know yeah and I have as much grace for him as he needs but I also prefer it and feel more blessed by a relationship and our relationship is better when he just listens to me um yeah kind of fullies like yeah doing the right thing and yeah it's difficult but I kind of feel like it's an imperfect example but it's like the closest I can get yeah unfortunately and I'm saying that's facetiously your son has free will and do my kids and it's that peculiar thing of going why won't you do what I want it's like because I've got free will in the same way Dad if our kids ever spoke to us like this you've got free will as well and so you get to do whatever you want and it's a tremendous gift isn't it but it comes with a massive amount of responsibility and I I know it might reflect my personality but when I became a Christian I enjoyed the grace without actually getting my head around the truth and sometimes I would go to a preach or I do a Bible study and I really didn't like what I was hearing because I thought no I want to be able to be me just like Matt was saying I didn't have the articulacy to explain it like he did and actually I had to come to the I think we sometimes call it conviction in Christianity because it can sound condemnation is when you you're damned like you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong forever and you're going to hell conviction is kind of when you go oh yeah I I did this wrong thing um and actually I don't want to do it again and I think if you I do this in re if you if you look at like for example The Ten Commandments that most people will know about the first four they're not just here's some rules if you get one of them wrong you're in trouble forever um but the first four are kind of to do with our relationship with God how we get on with him and I think it's the other the remaining six are if you follow these rules you'll get on with other human beings better so you know if you don't like being told what to do actually you probably do because you probably like to be treated how you want to be treated so if we go around stealing murdering committing adultery wanting stuff that isn't ours like you say it breaks it breaks relationship with each other and life becomes a lot more difficult to to live by and certainly um I really like the phrase that Matt used that he mentioned the um sometimes people talk about the believe behave belong and it depends which order you you you and you know if you've ever been hurt by a church there could be lots of reasons but I wonder if it's because you thought oh I'll only belong if I behave I have to behave first just like what you're saying about your your band and my three kids it's like you you belong you're you're a Watson and you can't get away from it yeah um if if you I don't know how I'm gonna go and segue this into belief but if you behave you don't belong anymore or any less yeah you still belong so one of my kids one of my kids is adopted so he wasn't born in Watson but he is a Watson but it's not a performance related well yeah performance related pay like you know right you can carry on being a Watson but only if you fulfill these criteria and that's how work operates isn't it I know you know in my work it's like here are your targets if you meet the targets great it's just not like that in God's family is it it's you belong I love you God loves us um his grace is enormous it's endless and we can just have it as a free gift but if we then find because we have that relationship with God like with our you know if our family works well we go up but I love you enough to to do what you want and to live like you want me to live um yeah yeah hmm yeah and I think that's the thing isn't it it's all underpinned by love and so you know God gives us a gift of Grace to save us and to make us part of his family and that's free and we don't do anything to earn it and it's just it's just there for us to accept um yeah but he also gives us a gift of Truth and I think that's out of love as well like it's all underpinned with love I think because the truth part is like he loves us enough not to leave us where we are damaging ourselves and others with our own fullness or imperfect imperfections you know it's like we all none of us are perfect for me all hurt other people and sometimes fall short of God's you know yeah well but yeah but like he gives us trees doesn't he to kind of lead us into greater levels of kind of better relationships whether there's better relationships with the world around us you know kind of I feel like God's truth helps us to um have a better relationship with God and also with other people around us and whether even the Earth we look after and Steward over it's um yeah yeah it's like yeah it's like but both of these things are independent by his love aren't they they're just different parts of his love almost yeah yeah I mean in in you know is that the famous story it's called the sheep and the goats isn't it where um whoever basically if you do anything good so you look after the the homeless you help the sick you help me um your clothes are naked you know you visit people in prison I think that's a good thing in the thing that involves loving your neighbor like the Good Samaritans is a very famous story where you know one man is beaten and mugged and another man that you're surprised helps him and I think those are things that God wants us to live by those are great uh Christian uh yeah they're both great Christian behaviors but you but it if if you're not a Christian and you're watching this um don't be put off by Christians all right because although some of us are trying to do and live well as in live by biblical standards we will get it wrong and sometimes people identify as Christians and I'm going I can't see that I have anything in common with you whatsoever and I certainly like Matt said about his theology I would so how you understand the Bible there are certain things that I just think every Christian would agree with and I'm sounding like an re teacher but I am one but you'll find Christians with different views on the role of men and women or sexual orientation race and part of me despairs at some of them yeah just like Matt said I'm going I have to consider that I could be wrong too and that I'm really the the Eternal things are the important ones and the Eternal things to sum it up very briefly is there's a God he loves us and we've sinned Jesus so he sent his son to divers in our in his place sorry I'm getting that all mixed up we know we've we've sinned we all do things that are wrong we need God's grace to be accepted but it's a it's a free gift and sometimes um we any church like a building that you might go into whether it's in America or South America Africa Britain there'll be different expectations of behavior um but fundamentally you you but you belong before you need to behave before your dress your language or any of those other things or even you know your behavior just just is secondary to you yeah that's right and that it's it's interesting isn't it because I think so much of how we think about our faith actually is cultural it's like to do an entry we're brought up in it's to do with like politics that were brought up in it's you know and and actually yeah I mean there's probably there probably are wet areas where we're right and other people are wrong but equally there's probably blind spots in the way we do church and understand the Bible where other cultures have got it right and we're pretty much off flight you know I think in the west we'd probably have a lot to learn about what we do with our money and our time that other cultures are much better and there's probably some things that we get a bit more right but yeah I just I feel like it's such a challenge isn't it because it's yeah ultimately it's about it's it's so easy to look at other people and point point out there soon as yeah someone made that point in the comments actually but it's you know the challenge for us is actually we only have to worry about ourselves and about you know our own convictions before God so yeah it's it's much much more fun to tell other people where they're going and if if you know wherever you are if you're a Christian and you and you're watching us or listening to us it's really really good though to to decide it's almost counter-cultural to say to somebody who's a another Christian maybe a bit older a bit wiser so I would talk about that being your past and say right I give you permission to tell me when I'm out of order when I'm bang out of line and if you tell Phil Watson that he's doing something wrong his immediate reaction is oh yeah but and I will tell you something about you and and I will say yeah but you know and I tend to do a lot of these things in my head now whereas once I'd have been in your face and actually be telling you and actually all they are is a distraction or a displacement activity because I didn't want to change and now and this isn't can't Blanche for everybody to kind of pip in and say the right Phillies a list of the things you're doing wrong but there are certain people yeah there'd be a long list suddenly my mother and wife are on there and all my kids going this is what you've done wrong and that's just today um but it's there are there are people that I trust very much um and say yeah I I believe you have got the best uh for me and I'm gonna listen to you what you tell me and it's really interesting because I I don't know many people who have gone to a church who haven't found that there's a struggle with somebody else in there and they might have gone I'm hurt and they they go off in a huff and I can completely understand that they feel offended and they leave the bad news is you're never gonna find a perfect church and and the worst news is if you do find a perfect church and you join it you've just ruined it by being there I'm afraid because you you know there's going to be something that you'll do that is probably not it's going to be a blemish so you kind of have to go right this this you have to choose we have to choose and go this is a church I'm going to go with and it reminds me of my Rosh Hashanah thing about your you know Happy New Year being bring sweet honey uh uh sweet honey to somebody else's life so what are you doing in a situation taking the responsibility for making the church that you're in the place where it's a it's a positive environment there's no slagging off there's no gossip you know it's like if you think the church is full of Gossip it's simple don't don't gossip and it's like um it's like what Matt was saying about relationships and and sex he was saying that um you know basically it's like it's like when you actually strip it back it's like it's what I'm doing improving my relationship with God and with others and it reminds it's really just aligning with the Ten Commandments isn't it I know they're like Very Old Testament but they still stand in my you know very much so it's like the first command is like love love God commanders love other people like you know as yourself and I think if you're actually taking just those two commands seriously all the other ones just sort of fall into place because I think most of like like that's example about sleeping with whoever you want well that's not respecting other people and it's hurting other people's feelings so if you don't want someone to mess around with your feelings then don't mess around with someone else's so it's yeah it's like when we actually live to that standard actually shouldn't be too hard to be in line with kind of Bible principles and truths because I don't know I feel like that kind of loving people others as myself is like almost the highest standard that I could hold and you know on hand on heart I get it wrong all the time and I I fall short of that but it's something to aim towards and I think even trying to live like that you know lifts the standard it's like would I like this would I like to be treated like this or talked about in this way and if the answer is no well don't do it yeah well you know it's it's great because I can see the names of people that are commenting here there's no pal Sue who I've known for years and years there's Maddie and there's some I'm thinking I've known these people and I'm pretty sure I'd be surprised if I haven't offended all of them at least once um but then that's sometimes the history of knowing somebody and if if you if you put your faith in a human whoever it might be it might be a wonderful Christian leader ultimately there's still only a human being and I would always you know there's been so many stories of leaders in in the church you know whichever Branch you look at and in you know in in the government as well uh who who mess up and it just to some extent I find those stories bitterly disappointing because you can you can think I've heard this man or this woman very often a man say wonderful things and then you find out something about his own life and you go why why would you do that and normally it's dare I say it's a sense of arrogance that I'm beyond the rules and the truth uh and you're thinking are you taking Grace for for granted so much so that you're just living a life where your own free will supersedes everything but part of me always goes I'm actually not I'm disappointed but sometimes I'm not surprised because human beings it's about trusting the perfect one Jesus is about trusting God and if I put my faith in a human being ultimately I will be disappointed um and you know the queen is a strange example because I didn't know her none of us knew her but she's lording as being amazing and I'm sure she was but I wonder if somebody closer went but you know what she's got a temper or she's got a I don't know I don't know what it would be even even as a good example of someone who's lived a good life and was really on it you know she's not perfect is she like no certainly know that there's been fallouts in her family and you know her children have been far from perfect allegedly and you know and it yeah and there was various family disputes over the years and you know that's yeah she's she's the matriarch of that family so that in some way is linked to her isn't it like well I'm not I'm not having to go at the queen I it just nobody's perfect are they and that's the point that's why we need Grace yeah but then also it's like that that first that Matt mentioned in Romans six first one where it's like shall we go sinning sing Grace may increase and it's like no you know Grace isn't an excuse for deliberately sinning but it's also accepting that none of us are perfect so it's sort of a big fan it's like be the best you can be and try and walk in the truth as much as you can but also let's be realistic that nobody's perfect and we're all going to get it wrong sometimes as Christians and there's Grace yeah we need it yeah and it's it's a wonderful thing one of the things about Christianity as well is is you can you can repent you can say sorry and um I may say I've got three kids and I can hear them in the background shouting because it's nearly team um and one of the and I know they could they could give you a list of things I've done wrong because they know me best well yeah with my wife if they got together they could destroy me and everyone thinks I'm amazing Anna I know shocking and everyone goes oh lovely Phil he's great um he will tell you otherwise if you've known me of any length of time you'll know the same um and one of the things I I write my kids letters uh handwritten and I've done that for 20 years so my daughter's nearly 21. so they've got each of them has got 20 30 40 50 letters in a box in the Loft and when they turn 18 they go it's a lovely idea if you're a parent I always recommend that and each letter says something like and it's not like a get out clause it says something like um I love you I'm doing the best I can with the information I have your choice is either to resent me or forgive me and and there is a sense that that's true of all human relationships you can resent me or you can forgive me and I would give you a tiny bit of advice on anyone here who's got resentment in them it's like you you've got absolute right to resent other people but it's like what is um what's that great phrase resentment or bitterness it's like taking poison and expecting the other person to die um it doesn't help you it doesn't help you to resent and get angry with other people long term uh for forgiveness is an incredibly good thing for for you for your relationship with God for your relationship with other people and for you for your mental health as well um I might have gone off truth there but anyway no I think it's a good point isn't it and it's all about how we treat ourselves and one another ultimately isn't it um yeah and yeah yeah I just think it's it's I mean it is a big issue and and Grace and forgiveness are interlinked really aren't they so but yeah it's so yeah it's a challenging topic because it's just so big I think it's the kind of yeah of everything that of paper is as questions you and me both you know we got jobs if if I said the word Grace I'm not sure many people in my work scenarios would necessarily get it straight away because it's taken me a long time to understand it because it you know it's sort of Grayson is it sometimes it's sort of linked with Mercy but Mercy sounds like it's a power game Grace yeah I don't know is it a word I mean I know people call Grace would you use Grace people say like oh have Grace for yourself don't they or have a bit of Grace for yourself you know and and I think that kind of gets a little bit of a context like yeah it kind of it's kind of like interchangeable we're like be kind to yourself yeah but it's so much more than that Grace doesn't it it's it's such a bigger concept it's like it's like getting what you don't deserve and yeah yeah yeah we use it to go find racer because it's like a really big complex it's a slippery fish yeah great great slime give yourself a break you know then you go yeah no it's more it's more than that but it is it is like going oh no I didn't do a very good job here I said something I shouldn't have said here and if you talk as much as me you're bound to offend somebody eventually um normally very very quickly and and yeah and I sometimes do because I've taught something like two or three thousand young people many of whom are now in their 40s I'm going for everyone who thought wasn't I great it wasn't Mr Watson great there must be some we were going oh yeah but when he said this and when he did that it really annoyed me or offended me and uh I you know I maybe I can use crowd Church to blanketly apologize to everybody I've offended over the last 52 years um that doesn't sound very heartfelt does it but there is there is a there is a sense that forgiveness is just a it's just an incredible uh uh honor to be able to forgive other people and also to like you said to to forgive yourself because you could live in a you know we use the word condemnation and conviction earlier I wonder whether the adulterous woman I always want to know what did she do next because Jesus says right go stop sinning but did she go away and feel bad about herself did she hate that town where she'd grown up because she felt that they treated her badly they condemned her but at the same time actually by the standards that they were living by she was guilty of sin um yeah all these questions that I've got for God when I get to heaven and that's the interesting thing isn't it like when you encounter Grace it should call you up to a higher standard like it's like interesting that um in the example that Matt was talking about like it's it was like um like Jesus says you know um like like he's he's he calls out the in the woman yeah he doesn't say oh you know don't worry about it he's he calls us in um so he's quite direct but that kind of confronting like people with truth and love calls you out you know and so like you experience more grace and it's like yeah and Grace is actually like it doesn't leave you where you are but it calls you to a higher standard as well yeah yeah and we could talk about it for another hour but we're running out of time rapidly can I say one last thing then one last time yeah I wonder when Jesus when the woman was uh about to be stoned which would have been the public execution in those days I just wonder whether Jesus said to the men Whoever has never sinned you can throw a stone and they all went off because they all knew that they'd sinned I wonder if then he privately spoke to the woman so as not to actually make it a public show and I wonder if that's a really good Principle as well that if you uh that some things are best done to give people some respect and some uh dignity so you might actually say I want to live in truth but actually do are you going to hurt the person by doing it now in this public forum I've certainly been here with you that in the past yeah yeah Grace and Truth yeah absolutely so I mean we could just keep talking and talking about this I think but we are running out of time so we'll wrap it up there thank you so much to everyone who contributed today and left their comments there's loads of good good food for thought there and I'm sure it's something to continue to go away and think about this week that whole Grace slaves and and Truth sets you free kind of idea so do do um do yeah think about that through the week I think it's one I'll certainly be chewing over and then do you know what's happening next week Phil I've just seen in the comments that Dave Connelly the mighty Dave is going to be preaching brilliant tune in yeah Dave is awesome so I'm sure that will be a good talk he's going to be picking up uh the third talk in this series The Origin series on the Gospel of John so that's going to be well worth tuning in for next week so everyone have a great week and we will see you soon have a great week everybody happy Jewish New Year yes bye bye
