Ever felt torn between what looks good and what God says is good? This week, Jenny Mariner tackled one of the most challenging aspects of faith - those moments when God says no to something that seems perfectly right. Through a fresh look at Genesis, Jenny explored how our culture's "follow your desires" narrative contrasts with God's invitation to deeper trust. From chocolate cake cravings to life-changing decisions, she revealed how God isn't restricting our joy but inviting us into something better. The following discussion got refreshingly real about relationships, power, and what it means to trust God when everything in us wants to say yes.
01Talk notes
Ever stood in front of something you really wanted - maybe it was the perfect job, the ideal relationship, or even just chocolate cake after a disappointing hike - and wondered why life couldn't just be simple? Jenny Mariner knows the feeling. She shared her Lake District disaster story where everything went wrong, including the devastating absence of chocolate cake at the end. But sometimes, she discovered, the things we want most aren't necessarily what we need most.
Jenny explored one of the most famous stories in human history - Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. But rather than focusing on the familiar Sunday school version, she dug into something that touches every one of us: what happens when God says no to something that looks perfectly good, and how that fits with our culture's message to "follow your desires wherever they lead."
02The Real Issue
Before we rush to judge Eve's choice, we need to understand what she was actually facing. The fruit wasn't rotten or obviously dangerous - Genesis tells us it was "good for food and pleasing to the eye and desirable for gaining wisdom." In other words, it looked brilliant.
This wasn't about a woman making an obviously stupid choice. It was about someone facing the same tension we all face - when something appears good, feels right, and promises to fulfill us, but God says it's not for us.
Jenny pointed out that our culture has a clear narrative about this tension. The story goes something like this: humans are highly evolved mammals living in a purposeless universe, so the best we can do is pursue happiness by following our internal desires. Anyone or anything that limits those desires - church, government, even self-discipline - is just trying to repress and control us.
But Genesis offers a completely different story. We're designed by a Creator God, made in his image, with the purpose of stewarding this planet in relationship with him and each other. The path to fulfillment isn't found by taking whatever we want, but by walking closely with the one who made us.
03God's Framework for Desire
The Bible doesn't dismiss desire as bad. In fact, Genesis 2 tells us God made trees that were "desirable for food" - that Hebrew word shamad actually means "to desire" or "to long for." God created things to be wanted and enjoyed.
Jenny used the analogy of an all-inclusive honeymoon resort where she and her husband initially piled their plates high, worried the abundance might run out, only to realise the provision was constant. That's the world God placed us in - abundant, good, and meant to be enjoyed.
But here's the crucial difference: the apple gets its goodness from God, not the other way around. When we elevate the apple (or the job, relationship, comfort, or whatever) and start saying "I need this particular thing for true happiness more than I need the Creator God who made it," we've got things backwards.
The problem isn't desire itself - it's when we let desires become ultimate things that promise to deliver what only God can provide.
04Make It Real
Jenny and the conversation offered practical examples of how this plays out:
Relationships: We can look to friendships, marriages, or partnerships to meet all our needs, forgetting that no human relationship can bear the weight of being our everything. When we expect another person to be our source of validation, security, and purpose, we set both ourselves and them up for disappointment.
Work and Success: Many people, particularly men, find their identity in professional achievement. When business success becomes the primary source of self-worth, it becomes an insatiable appetite. There's always another deal, another promotion, another level of success that promises to finally deliver the security and significance we're chasing.
Physical Comfort: Our culture of convenience trains us to avoid discomfort at all costs. But sometimes God asks us to make uncomfortable decisions - to give generously even when it stretches us, or to choose harder paths that lead to greater character growth.
Sexual Relationships: Our culture insists sexual activity is essential for human fulfillment, but the Bible places it within specific boundaries. This doesn't mean God wants to repress us, but rather that he knows what context allows sexuality to flourish without causing harm.
05Conversation Street
The discussion revealed how personal and practical these choices become:
"Why was the tree put in the garden if God never wanted us to pick from it?" The tree wasn't a trap - it was about relationship and free choice. God doesn't want robots who follow him because they have no other option. He wants people who choose to trust him even when they could choose otherwise.
"What things have you said no to because you believe that was what God asked you to do?" Matt shared his struggle as an 18-year-old new Christian with biblical sexual ethics - something that nearly stopped him becoming a Christian at all. Dave spoke about his early faith when he knew certain behaviours were wrong before anyone told him. Jenny mentioned friendships that were unhealthy influences, books that fed her imagination in destructive ways, and career choices that would have paid more but wouldn't have been obedient to God's calling.
"How do you think the wider church repairs itself in times of scandal?" The conversation acknowledged that when church leaders pursue power, money, or sexual gratification outside biblical boundaries, the consequences damage real people and undermine the church's witness. The path forward requires humility, repentance, and accountability relationships that speak truth in love.
06What Changed
Jenny's apple illustration captured something profound: we need apples to live, but we need them in relationship with the God who sustains all life. When we remember that good things get their goodness from God, we can enjoy them without being enslaved by them.
This isn't about religious performance or earning God's approval. Jenny was clear: "You don't have to have it all together to become a Christian. You can come to Christ as you are - broken, messy, with all the stuff we've been talking about - and he will accept you. But don't be surprised if he doesn't leave you that way."
The transformation happens gradually, through what Eugene Peterson calls "a long obedience in the same direction" - learning day by day to hear God's voice and trust that the one who made the apple has good things planned for us.
07Next Steps
Jenny offered practical ways to apply this in everyday life:
Question your ultimate dependencies: What are you looking to for happiness that might be good but isn't ultimate? Is it a relationship, career success, financial security, or physical comfort?
Practice saying no to good things: Start small. Choose not to buy something you want but don't need. Create boundaries with technology or entertainment that might be harmless but not helpful.
Develop accountability relationships: Surround yourself with people who love you enough to speak truth when you're deceiving yourself about what's good for you.
Remember the source of goodness: When you enjoy good things - food, friendships, nature, work, rest - practice thanking the God who made them rather than just consuming them.
Trust the bigger picture: When God says no to something you want, remember that he's the parent who sees dangers and opportunities you can't see yet.
08The Bigger Picture
Jenny's chocolate cake disaster became a metaphor for how we can hang our happiness on things that ultimately can't deliver what they promise. But unlike her rainy Lake District disappointment, God's nos aren't arbitrary or cruel.
The God who commands "eat, eat" from every tree in the garden except one is the same God who knows which choices lead to flourishing and which ones lead to emptiness. Learning to trust his perspective, even when it contradicts our immediate desires, is what it means to walk in relationship with our Creator.
09Where Does This Leave Us?
The choice Eve faced at the tree is the same choice we face constantly: will we trust our own assessment of what's good for us, or will we trust the perspective of the one who made us?
Jenny wasn't suggesting this is easy. Saying no to good things that God says aren't for us requires faith, community, and often involves genuine grief for what we're choosing not to pursue.
But the promise of Scripture is that the God who made us isn't trying to deprive us of joy - he's trying to lead us to the kind of deep, lasting satisfaction that comes from walking closely with our Creator in a world full of his good gifts.
Because here's what our culture gets wrong: true freedom isn't found by following every desire wherever it leads. True freedom is found in trusting the one who made us to guide us toward the life we were actually designed for.
That's why God's no is often the most loving thing he can say.
Topics in this talk
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(240) When Everything Looks Good But God Says No (Genesis Part 5) - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otZkpkH1LFc
Transcript: (00:03) well good evening welcome to crowd Church my name I don't know why I said it like that my name is SM Edmonson it's great to be with you tonight uh we are on YouTube we are on Facebook and we are on Instagram and I think we've gone live two minutes early which may have thrown everything out but you know when you're ready you're ready uh beside me is the beautiful talented amazing Good Egg Dave Conley hello hello don't know why you said it like that either you started it yeah started that's very true uh very (00:40) warm welcome to you do say hi in the comments let us know where you're watching from uh we love the comments we love the comments and the questions that you guys put in the in the comments whatever platform you're watching this on and hopefully it's going to come up on my computer in front of me um but yeah wherever you're watching this from whatever your questions we do love them do put them in the comments and if you're in person you can use the pigeon hole uh which is the outw use inside so yes you can you can just reach out with your questions and your comments today (01:10) we are talking about well I'm not talk well we are actually in conversation Street going to talk about desire uh the wonderful Jen is going to be talking to oh let me is there a volume coming I can hear me turn me down let me just make sure that we're off there we go it's just weird when I can hear my voice coming out of the computer as well uh so yeah very warm welcome to you uh let's see Matt hey Matt how you doing Miriam uh I learned tonight's Topic at work this morning okay AIDS in the comments hey Aid how you doing uh great (01:46) to see you guys very very warm welcome to you uh it's great just keep saying hi in the comments we'll keep responding I'll be on the comments in a little second um but yeah it' be great to see you Dave I can't wait to hear you you speak at CLC Tom Mo no can I it's going to be great Miriam I presume that's Miriam how did you guess uh CLC Christian Life Center in St heland I'm speaking on prayer walking okay 7:30 if you're free 7:30 in St Helens come to CLC and you'll hear this wonderful man here uh yeah very warm welcome to you uh (02:26) watching from my sofa says Matt that's you know an interesting place to watch I I wish I was on a sofa I'm on a really uncomfortable Bar St at the moment but that's okay uh but it works you know he gets me here anyway all that said shall we jump straight into it let's go Jen do you want to get yourself ready Jen's sneaking up you can't see us just we got we've got um What's the phrase we've got object lessons tonight as well like proper physical props which I'm very excited about um so when you ready are we ready awesome so roll VT here is (03:10) to I'll just keep talking hello hello good evening good evening good evening yeah I have an object lesson I think I also brought an object lesson last time I was here love a good visual aid everybody can't be a visual aid so evening my name is Jenny and we are talking about Genesis 2 and three and we have a fair amount of stuff to say so I am just going to jump right into it and then we can chat about it a little bit more this is an extremely famous story you might have never been to church in your life and you probably know that there was some people called Adam and Eve and there was a tree and it's (03:40) usually drawn as an apple tree although the Bible doesn't actually tell us what kind of tree it was and Eve was told not to fruit the eat fruit the eat fruit eat eat the fruit Eve was told not to eat the fruit that she ate it anyway um and so that is the story that we're going to unpack but I want us to think for a minute because I'm sure all of us have had times when we've done something that we thought was going to be amazing and then it wasn't or we've bought something that we thought was going to be amazing or we've been (04:08) somewhere and then you just get disappointed right one of the things that comes to my mind me and jat love going on walks uh you know like a nice Countryside hike in our spare time quite like doing that but um I really only prefer it if the weather's good I'm like a fair weather Walker Jack has all the gear and he will put all the gear on whatever the weather and he'll have a happy time so we went on this hike a long time ago we're driven to the late District so like by the time you've driven to the late District you've (04:36) committed and we're there and it's raining and I'm like I really don't want to climb this hill but I was going to reward myself with coffee and cake at the end of it by which I mean coffee and chocolate cake okay I'm very open-minded about what kind of chocolate cake I'll take chocolate brownie I'll take chocolate frud cake I'll take a tiffen I'll take a rocky road but it has to in in chocolate right so we dragged ourselves up this hill we got to the Viewpoint there was no view it was rainy we dragged ourselves down thehill we went to the coffee shop and they had every single kind of non-chocolate cake (05:12) you've ever seen in your life every and there was nothing chocolate I like threw a little hissy fit in the rain in the street in the Lake District it's like what kind of stupid coffee shop doesn't have chocolate and I like literally wouldn't go in because I was like hanging my day on this chocolate cake and was severely disappointed now that's just a very flippant example right but of all the different things that I could say about Genesis 1 and 2 today I want to talk about our desires and the question of (05:43) what is God's view on our desires because we all have desires for things right the definition of Desire I looked it up it says a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for it to happen so I desired chocolate cake it might be a friendship it might be something you want to buy it might be an interesting place that you want to go in this famous story Eve desires that fruit of the particular tree but God tells her no which presents an interesting question because we live in a culture if you live in the 21st century West you live in a culture that tells you the (06:15) root to happiness is to do whatever you want look inside of you whatever you desire to do do it and that will be where you find happiness so if God is telling me no you can't have that thing then does God not want me to be happy what's going on with all of that I thought that was quite a pertinent relevant question for our culture to unpack today and in short what we're going to look at is how the Bible God absolutely does want you to be happy but the Bible's root to happiness is not just going out and taking whatever you (06:47) want in fact in scripture when you see someone who wants something and takes it that is actually quite often an image for something then about to go wrong like Eve sees the fruit she takes it there are other times in Scripture where that happens so we're going to have a look at God's kind of route to happiness so I want to take us back to Genesis 1 okay very beginning of Genesis 1 it says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth now the Earth was formless and empty Darkness was over the surface of the deep and the spirit of God was (07:19) hovering over the waters and God said let there be light and there was light and God saw that the light was good and he separated the light from Darkness okay now Steve unpacked this whole um chapter a couple of weeks ago but what I wanted to remind us is that in the beginning God is he's not created he didn't come from anywhere and everything that God creates is good because God is good okay God is not the most good thing on the goodness ruler God is good okay so God just is goodness and then as he then goes on through Genesis 1 to create (08:05) the Hall of creation it is good because God makes it because it gets its goodness from God okay so you I in my walk in the Lake District if it hadn't been throwing it down with rain then I would have seen God's beautiful creation and I would have admired all these things that are amazing because God made them if you think about a seed that you plant in the ground and it grows just because of water Water and Light into a massive tree that is because God made it and it tells us in Genesis 2:15 it says the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and (08:42) take care of it and the Lord God commanded the man you are free to eat from any tree in the garden and apparently in Hebrew the command there see you the Lord God commanded the man it's eat eat so God's like go eat eat you are commanded to eat eat all of this is yours it's abundance that is what the Genesis begins with telling us that God gives to us abundantly the only time the most abundant thing I could think of in an analogy was the only time I've ever been on an all-inclusive holiday was my honeymoon right and I was quite young I (09:18) was like 23 Jack was 23 and we book ourselves this amazing honey moon and it had this all inclusive restaurant that had like everything you could possibly imagine all the time time like all the cakes and the curries and the steaks and the fish and the salads and just everything and so the first night we went and we're like literally piling our plates high and then you could go back for seconds and with same like the second night and then by the third day it's beginning to Dawn on us that we're not going to turn up at the restaurant (09:48) one day and there's not going to be any food but actually it's okay to just have a reasonable plateful of food because when we go for the next meal the abundance is going to be there again we were abundantly provided for and that is the world that we're put in so this good God has given us abundant creation and it is desirable if you go back a few verses in Genesis 2 it says the Lord God planted the garden in the East and he put the man and the woman he put there the man had had formed and the Lord God (10:20) made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food and the word there in Hebrew is shamad it's translated pleasing in quite a lot of Bibles but it it's actually desirable it is desirable for food there's nothing wrong with seeing an apple and wanting the food it's F that's how God made it for us to to to want these things because if you study Genesis very much you'll discover there's like loads and loads of word play in Genesis and one of the bits of word play is that the word Adam which we now see as kind of like the name of the human it Adam it means human and then (11:03) the word adamar means ground so the Adam comes from the adamar the human comes from the ground it's a reminder in the language that we are made from dust that we don't sustain our own life that God makes us and God sustains us so he puts things in the garden I'm going to get to my visual a in a minute he puts things in the garden for us but it is God who truly suain stains us okay so like this apple it's good because it's made by The God Who is good it has a very tiny amount of God's goodness in this apple (11:40) that's why it's good and it's normal for me to look at something like this apple and think I need this apple to sustain my life I can't live a day without eating well a few days but you get my point I need to eat things like apples to sustain my life that's the way that God made it but I need to do that in relationship with the God who is the SU stain of life okay there is a problem that comes if I Elevate the apple and I begin to say this apple is the Apple it's not just any odd Apple this is what I actually need for true happiness in fact I need this Apple for my happiness (12:18) more than I need the Creator God who made the Apple okay it's a you know it's it's just an analogy but you might be beginning to get my point I need to remember that the apple is not actually ultimate goodness it gets its goodness from God who is the ultimate source of goodness hopefully you're with me so far I will keep going and it will become clear but we have a good God who gives us good things that are made to be desirable but we need to remember that they get their goodness from the Creator God himself okay so let's get to the tree um Genesis 2:15 we've seen it (12:56) already says that God commands go eat eat but it says You must not eat from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil for when you eat from it you will certainly die and this is where it gets a bit tricky right because in my imaginings as a child I assumed it was like a black tree a spiky tree a poisonous tree a tree that had do not eat written across it or something right that was my assumption I was like stupid woman of course she knew you shouldn't eat from that tree but if you actually again read uh the (13:26) Hebrew Genesis 3:6 it tells us when the woman saw the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye and desirable for gaining wisdom and again you've got that word pleasing but it's interesting in the NIV they use pleasing both times it's actually a different Hebrew word so first time we had this Shamar this desirable this time we have the word tarar which means to greedily lust the tree was good for food and she greedily lusted after it it's that longing in your mind and in your body she saw it and she wanted it we all know what that's like don't we whether it's a food or a phone or a person or something (14:10) or my chocolate cake she wants it but God says no and there's in some ways this is unique to Adam and Eve in the garden but really this is the kind of choice that we have to make all the time because there are things around us which are good things they're good because they're made by God but sometimes for us God might be saying no not for you or not right now and then we are presented with a choice about trust right do we look at the Apple and say God I hear you that this apple is actually what I really need for happiness so I'm going to (14:47) ignore you because I really want that apple or do we say okay I see it I see it's good but I hear what you're saying to me that it's not for me right now because we live in a culture that has quite a different it puts a person and our desires right up on a pedestal so let me frame for you what I think is one of the narratives that we come across in our culture all the time right it goes a little bit like this for a start there is no God humans are just highly evolved mammals and that means that actually (15:23) there's also no purpose to life and so the best purpose we can come up with because we Exist by accident so the best purpose we can come up with is to pursue happiness and we pursue Happiness by looking inside of ourselves and doing whatever it is that we think we'd like to do so that might be uh travel Lots it might be have lots of sex it might be pursue money it might be that there's a cause that you really want a champion whatever you want Follow Your Truth you do you but if any authority figures tell (15:58) you not to do those things if things like the church or governments or anything tries to limit on you you need to throw that off because they are just trying to repress you and control you and if you discipline yourself well then you're suppressing yourself and you know really you're just self Haring so the best thing you can do for happiness is to do whatever you want to do that is the narrative basically that we live in that's on Instagram it's on Netflix it's around the staff room table it's when you're reading the guardian whatever it (16:28) is you do a version of that narrative is very present in our 21st Century West it's worth noting that it's not people in history have believed different kind of narratives or stories we might not understand sometimes how much we Elevate the individual when other cultures have maybe been more corporate but we're all about the individual but the Bible gives us a very different story the Bible tells us that we are designed by a Creator God and made as images of of him and our purpose is to Steward this (17:03) planet in relationship with God and in relationship with one another and how we do that well God is Not distant he didn't just make us and say go off do whatever you want God wants us to Ste Steward this planet in relationship with him he wants us to learn how to live in intimacy with our creator walking closely with him and in this world full of good things abundantly full of good things God says go have eat enjoy but sometimes there will be things where I say no and the root to happiness to fulfillment to being truly who I made you to be is to walk with your (17:43) creator there are actually two quite different stories and I guess what I'm suggesting this evening is that you can't choose to live half in each you have to make a decision which story it is that you're walking I don't believe God wants you to be repressed at all I don't believe he wants to supress yourself but I do believe that there is something that we talk about in the Bible called self-discipline a Godly self-discipline that God gives us desires they're good and healthy but sometimes we need to say no and we face (18:13) this kind of thing uh let's give some examples I think sex is a really big example in our culture our culture says go out and have sex you need to be having sex to be fulfilled as a human being and yet the Bible puts sex in within certain boundaries and says well it's a good thing God made it but it's for this place so does that mean you can't be fulfilled does that mean that God's saying you need you can't be truly human not at all what God's saying is you don't actually need that good thing for fullness of life that is a good thing I made it but not everybody's (18:46) going to access it and you can have fullness of life and be abundantly happy with your creator without having that good thing or it might be possessions you know comfort don't we love our comfort and our phones and our cars and our houses and our clothes and our shoes and they're good things but sometimes I think God wants to challenge comfort in our lives you look in the Bible I mean we did Philippians didn't we in the Autumn Paul is not comfortable I think sometimes God's saying to us actually there's nothing wrong with those things but I'm asking you to not have it I'm asking you to make an uncomfortable decision I'm asking you to give a large (19:25) amount of money away or something like that and we have to be careful when we're elevating those things and saying but I need the Apple when God's saying no you need to listen to the person to the Creator God who made the Apple so I guess when I first read this story as a kid I used to read it and think Adam and Eve you're absolute idiots of course I would have made a much better choice than you've done but I've come to realize that I think we all face our own moments at the tree all the time where we're learning how to walk with God (20:01) there's a book I love it's called a long obedience in the same direction and I mean you don't like and the book's incredible but the title gives you a hint doesn't it just walking day by day learning how to listen to God learning how to hear his voice and trusting that the one who made the Apple has good things for you he has life for you and so sometimes if he says nah that's not for you that's not now it might look good you might really want it but actually there is life if you say no and you follow where God's leading you to (20:40) amen that's what I've got for us this evening guys amen you're on camera no you genuinely are on camera so welcome back that was slick uh welcome back to conversation Street uh great to have you back with us Jen thanks for that and for the first time in our inperson service you're joining us in conversation Street thought why not let's have a bit of fun let's have three of us why not and so Zoe is going to be loving this on the keyboard on the camera switcher just like fingers at the ready zo fingers at the ready uh so yeah your questions your comments your thoughts throw them in uh in there one thing that (21:33) um did stick out that question you you know you said our culture elevates its desires um I'll just put a question in the comments do you think we do that um and Aid said yes we do as a culture do you think that's true yes and no oh why no yes and no I think my experience is are are depending on what season of life we are in you know I think and regardless of what we say isn't always what we really you know feel about things and I think um I think you know God knows that I think we just have to be honest and I (22:15) know my feelings lie to me my opinions can lie to me the only thing I know that is solid and steadfast is when I go back to the word yeah yeah that's that's very true um Jen when you were talking about that um someone's actually put one of the comments here um sex is you said that sex is not open to all it's a good thing but it's not a it's not necessarily a possibility for everybody but life can be full irrespective right um and someone's mentioned that in the comments um do you want to dig into that a little bit deeper uh no what well what in term in (22:56) terms of what do you mean by it well I mean in this church in in a lot of churches there's a belief that sex is to only for for a marriage between a man a man and a woman and that's the only place that we believe that it's appropriate to have sex and I think one of the reasons that our culture really struggles with that is because it is put forward that you need to be sexually active and I don't want to downplay the fact that like we are sexual beings and those desires are really significant I think be wrong and you do get into the suppression thing if you just say oh (23:28) just try and ignore those desires just ignore them and they'll go away I don't think that's helpful but I think that a God who put boundaries around something doesn't then just leave you and if you can't have sex in that context well then you've just got to deal with that I believe that God meets you there and I've got friends who you know there's there's a range of reasons why someone might not be in that context and they are walking that out with God and I don't think it's easy but I know that God has met them in it and they have a fullness of life without something that (24:02) the world is kind of saying to us you have to have this it's essential to life and I don't think that the Bible says it's essential to life I think you can have fullness of life without that yeah go ahead yeah um I think we need to understand that you know especially when we're reading Genesis we're talking about a piece of work that's written quite poetically and it's not a scientific piece of work it's not even a historical piece of work it's trying to introduce you to a knowledge of the Creator God it's not really I don't believe it's even the main aim is to connect us with creation (24:44) but to connect us with the Creator and I get from you know as I read scripture that sex and relationship is to take place within a covenant relationship yeah now that might be aware that people aren't familiar with but we have a covenant God a God who keeps promises he creates structure and he doesn't create structure as as Jen was saying to do us down but he puts a structure around us to keep us safe yeah yeah we're going to be talking about Covenant in a few weeks about five or six weeks might can't rememberers in a little while so we're going to get (25:24) into that into much more detail and actually covering this topic in a lot more detail I think so stay tuned for that um it's it's a really important thing but I think it's a it's it's a very counter cultural statement to make isn't it at the moment do you think it's um I don't know I remember when I was at school you know and you and you were told as Christians you couldn't have sex before married and we or marriage and you're just like well that that just makes no sense to me whatsoever it was it was (25:54) actually if I'm honest it was the thing that stopped me becoming a Christian for the longest time because I was like well surely that's not right God would never do something like that because why would he right because I was measuring life on the basis of fun rather than on the basis of what God actually said um and but this is the whole point you're making isn't it there are things which are good and that you desire them but out of the context that God has for them it's we have to learn to say no right yeah and I get that you know I'm talking (26:26) about learning to walk with trust and if at the start of a journey of faith we might not have that level of trust you know God has Grace for us if we do things we we've all done it whatever the thing is and God said no and we've gone and done it anyway he's got so much buckets of Grace and love for us in that but I do think there is a learning to walk with him and learning to understand that actually he has a different perspective on these things and that he knows best well he's the designer isn't he he's the Creator he knows what's best (26:56) for us and we have to keep going going back to what he says you know and do the reset to what he is saying we're we're as Christians it's quite difficult isn't it um whatever there's lots of things being said out there and the church I think personally over recent years has lost its footing yeah you know it's lost its World it has a worldview rather than a Biblical worldview and that has caused so many problems for I think you know the church God loves us he created us and he's made provision for us you know Jen used um you know the issue of sex (27:40) and you know it's good in its context and I know non-christians who have lovely marriages etc etc but I know more relationships that are broken I'm broken and broken so when we when we step outside of God's boundaries for his provision we find lots of Brokenness yeah vastly more Brokenness than um people who just get by yeah I think you can take that as well onto say relationships that we can put a relationship and okay yeah maybe a marriage or a sexual relationship but maybe a friendship like we can also look to our relationships to be the meter of (28:24) all our needs in terms of good things I think there's so many things that we can be like oh that's good and then we want it to to meet all of our needs and then we start relying really heavily on it and then we kind of end up in a bit of a mess because actually that friendship or that partnership is never going to be everything that we need it to be so I think even there are other contexts that we have to be like wait a second I need to look to the sustainer of all life for this thing and this relationship is good (28:55) but it can't be my everything yeah yeah so true and we I see this a lot in business in the sense of what you tend to find is um in business men predominantly um it's not exclusive but predominantly men will go into business they'll become entrepreneurs um and they will start to get good at it and um when you get good at something you take your self-esteem from that right that feeds you and so what what happens is because that feeds you and because it's easy to keep scoring business how much money did I (29:33) make you know how many contracts did I win that feeds your self-esteem and so you you give more and more and more of yourself over to it to try and get more and more of that fixed to try and get more and more of that esteem and I mean you know conversations about self-esteem aside and whether it's actually a good idea or not that's another topic for another day but my point here is I think we can start to see these things bring things into our lives when we chase them that we think are right that we think are good um and before you know it you've gone 30 years down that road (30:09) only to find actually I'm chasing the wrong thing you know yeah one of the things I stood out and still context with what we saying there is you know about don't touch the tree don't touch it don't go there and he didn't put two big dogs yeah there you know because he's a god of relationship yeah and we're not robots he's given us a free will he's given us choice and I think as followers of of of of God you as as Christ followers we need to realize that we are in relationship and it's a free will relationship it's a love relationship so when he says don't do that he's saying (30:55) that from a place of relationship yeah but why does Eve trespass because we continually I think um just as you were saying I think you know the the importance of especially as we continue through um Genesis the importance of realizing we're in relationship yeah and it's a loving relationship with God and he wants us to live a surrended life now that maybe doesn't fit you know um with a lot of what people are saying you know you can do what you want and blah blah blah well that's right we do we surrender freely to him and we acknowledge yes God has made provision (31:37) for us and it's not easy I'm not suggesting that for one moment but it is about don't you don't need to touch that I've made provision for you and I'm not going to put two big dogs there I want you to make a a decision not to yeah that that then comes back to Free Will doesn't it that's the whole thing about you know when we parent our kids it's a simple analogy isn't it we we we want the best for our kids and that means we tell them don't do certain things which they don't understand because they have the desire (32:08) to do it they don't see the bigger picture um and lo and behold turns out mom and dad are right well how much more does that work with God right and it's um it's an interesting question one of the the statements here God wants to challenge our comfort or challenge comfort in our lives outch do you want to dig into that a bit more well I think it's another thing that there's a whole basket full of stuff there that we can pursue instead of God isn't there and in terms you know like you're saying about work and affirmation at work we can pursue money because we think we need (32:40) certain things we can yeah I just think there's a lot of stuff we can put into our lives that we think are good things but actually like we're it's insatiable like we're always going out and buying the next thing we're always after the next thing you don't meet very many people who are on that path and got just shopped enough I'm just never going to shop again I've got I've got all the clothes and shoes I need it's just it's not it doesn't happen like that does it so again I just think there's a whole basket full of stuff there we have to be careful with they're good things have (33:10) nice trainees I don't have a problem with that but it's that where is it fitting in your life question that is worth talking to God about yeah yeah um why was the tree put in the garden if God never wanted us to pick from it was it because we give him free will you answer that well I think I Can't Tell You Why God put the tree but you in the garden but you know I do know that God wasn't trying to trick people you know um we could ask why do we go through trials and difficulties what scripture says it's very clear it's to strengthen (33:48) us you know um it's very scripture is clear you know and I think God is W to establish Us in relationship with him you you know um like if we read as we read through Genesis it's not full of don't don't don't don't yeah there's lots of in those first chapters it's good very good and yet we tend to Major on things like don't you know but there has to be a balance do we wait for somebody to fall and injure themselves or do we say don't go there it's dangerous it won't do us good I would just say I'm going to unpack a (34:30) little bit more of that when I come back to crowd in a couple of weeks time two weeks yeah because I wanted to kind of go down that path but I didn't have enough time okay so I said to Matt let's do two and then I can go down that path another time so we're going to car so you're going to dig more into why the tree was in the garden very good um it's fair to say though isn't it that for if I'm going to carry the analogy there are trees that we all come to in our own lives where God says don't touch right we live this life with God and God says (35:00) don't touch that um one of the questions which has come through here is what things have you said no to because you believe that was what God asked you to do well I'll go first I when I was 18 um going back to what I said earlier when I became a Christian the the one thing which I really struggled with about Christianity was this uh no sex out of marriage thing and the church that I went to at the time preach that every week you could not Escape that message I thought there was genuinely something wrong with that preacher um this was when I lived in the states love (35:38) the guy but man alive and so every week I'm wrestling with this and there came a point in my life where I said you know what God I don't get it I don't understand it but I'm now going to trust you with that statement and I had to lay that down to surrender my life to Christ Christ at that point um and I know for other people it works other way you I mean sometimes people surrender and then they lay that down later on down but for me at that point that was one of the things I had to surrender I mean I mean for myself um when I became a Christian I really the (36:13) evening I gave my life to Christ you know there was no flash or lightning or anything I remember it very clearly and I remember saying God if you're interested in somebody like me let's have a go very technical and um and I really me it and I and I went home and I and I said it again but the next day I get up I have to start making choice I know nothing I know I don't know any more about God than what I did the night before besides I've prayed this prayer and but I knew I I didn't have to be told if I do this it was wrong I knew that wasn't going that wasn't going to (36:53) work and I probably struggled for the early years of my Christian Life of wanting to be a Christian not but not wanting to trust God enough to surrender my life to him or maybe people who are watching this are in that position where you think yeah I could do this God thing but I'm not confident that God can cover all my challenges he can and he will yeah very good what about you Jen I can think of loads of things I think friendships at certain points I think early in my walk with faith friends that were just a really bad influence on me and you know they were good people and you know I'd love maybe to reconnect (37:33) with them now but at the time yeah I was like I can't do Walking with God and keeping this friendship in my life yeah it just isn't I've had that um with books actually okay I have a really vivid imagination and so I've found certain types of books I'm like I just can't read that that's just not good for me okay somebody else might be absolutely fine I'm not saying there necessar anything wrong with that book but I can't go there yeah and then other things like if I'm honest even like jobs you know I could have a job where I earn more money I reckon um yeah (38:12) but so you know there is that choice um and like very early on in our marriage Jack was at that point where he did that thing that you've done if you worked for the church and they don't actually pay you so you know it's like I I could go and get money doing something else but I just have such a conviction that this is what God wants me to do and I I feel like I'd be an idiot going out almost like I just can't you know I can't go out and get that job and get all that money because I just know and we're all very grateful you're here J we're all super grateful you made that decision (38:43) let me tell you um and I think it's probably worth saying if you're listening if you're watching this if you're in person or outside the church here you do not have to have it all together to become a Christian I when I was 18 I didn't that was just one particular issue God challenged me on for you it may be something else it might not be but I've been walking with God 30 years you know what today he is still challenging me about stuff so don't worry that you've got to get everything sorted out you don't we there this great phrase about you know (39:14) sometimes we feel like we have to clean the fish before we catch it and we and you really don't and this whole thing you can come to Christ as you are broken messy in all the stuff that we've been talking about and he will accept you but don't be surprised if he doesn't leave you that way right he's going to work with you over the coming years and he will transform you into his glory right into His Image but you don't have to have it all together but do enjoy the journey so why doesn't God just remove (39:44) the stuff which is bad and dangerous for us is a question and I would say that goes back around to the whole relationship thing that God wants to walk in relationship with us I think that is one of the as Dave was saying it's one of the big messages if you read Genesis 1 and 2 like the the tree is actually just like two sentences you know the message of the whole thing is like God made you and loves you and gives abundance to you and he wants to walk in relationship with you and so yeah is there is something (40:16) that we're learning that I think is for now and is for eternity you know as Christians we believe we're going to live with God for eternity and we are learning something about how to relate to him that I think is eternal importance yeah and and we we'll hear more about that next week these are plugs these are plugs guess who's speaking next week oh yeah and that's about um just a little snippet it's about you know being made in the image of God you know and you know I'm sure God's bigger than me you (40:46) know so when it's talk about us being made in In His Image it's about capturing that whole essence of who he is and what he is and you know sometime I don't know what your experience is but here in Liverpool quite often if somebody says you're just like your dad it's not normally a positive thing it's not normally a positive thing but as for us we should be like our heavenly father we should have his characteristics not because we've learned a pattern of behavior but you used the word before but we've been we are being transformed you know and the same very (41:25) same spirit that raised Jesus from the Dead the very same spirit that was there when we were created that lives in us he lives in us now you know so it it it's just important to realize that each of these talks they all interweave and we're learning something about the nature of the Creator you know so you need to hear what he's trying to say um you know yes we want to be real and it's okay to have have questions but I would say to you um as you're listening and watching this ask yourself these two questions what was God trying to say (42:05) through the writer of of these verses and secondly is this what do you need and how do you need to respond to it they are vital they will be lifechanging to you and you do just come as you are just come as you and if you're a mess come if you think you're SED you're wrong just come so true so true very good very good so that's a quick plug for next week uh oh yes yes oh yes so we've got Dave next week we've got Jen the week after so more good stuff coming along uh Matt put here in the comments how do you think the wider Church uh repairs itself in the times of Scandal and apparent (42:48) inappropriate conduct because this is a big one isn't it you talk about desire and and God saying no to things and then you going beyond that and the see one of the things that maybe you you touched on a little bit was consequences right so the consequences of so if I tell my kids that stove is hot don't touch it and they touch it the consequence is they're going to get burnt I didn't want it it's just a consequence right and I think in some of these things there are consequences and the church is suffering the consequences of some (43:21) very uh immoral practices I think um so yeah I I think it's an interesting inter in question I don't actually know the answer other than you've got to start with repentance which is a good Christian word for going God I've totally messed up and we have to start with us yeah we have to start with us you know um all these things whether it be Financial or sexual Scandal or whatever it is they all damage people and they all undermine the image of the church but if we're going to see change we don't need to be men and women I'm talking about (44:00) within the church who just criticize yeah we need to take stock and we need to take stock starting with us yeah very true Jen yeah I mean I would agree I think we've got to be humble about these things haven't we and um I think there's you get these things like coercion and sexual abuse but I think you also just get a lot of pursuit of power in the church absolutely like and I think I in a lot of these been kind of the earlier thing that's come and actually you know as someone who's leading in the church myself like just walking daily being like God help me to be humble help me you know I yeah (44:39) I think that I heard someone just this week talking about a book they've written about this called a church called Tove which is the Hebrew word for good and he was talking about how does the church ReDiscover God's goodness and I think you know we've got a journey really to discover and I'm am saying God help me to be be part of that we have to do things differently and be humble um and I think God wants to lead us in that direction because he is good because he is Tove he wants to teach us how to be good yeah absolutely and I think I (45:10) humility is such an important point isn't it because this belief what tends to happen I think and again maybe this is a male thing I can talk about men obviously being one so uh but the belief that I've been doing something and I've been getting away with it therefore is some kind of divine acceptance that I am different but I'm okay do you know what I mean it's um I remember we were in a meeting once um up in one of the church Halls here and we we were talking about uh not messing around with sin basically (45:48) not you know if when God tells you to do something like don't don't mess around with it because there are consequences and I remember saying to this guy we were just praying for him and I said you're having an affair aren't you just one of those things I felt I needed to say to him and he's like yes and I'm like go I just feel like God's telling you that's not okay and he's like oh no it is it's fine because I've you know God's talked to me about it and he and he said for me it's okay in other words (46:17) I've gotten away with it so far God's not struck me down with lightning therefore he is approving somehow of my life honestly I wanted to punch him in the face but I didn't I restrained myself but it's goody good boy yeah well done that have been turers needing to repent but it's this bizarre thing and I think in the church especially this pursuit of power getting away with things holding things not keeping things open not keeping short accounts I'm just believing therefore that's that's okay and it's not but it highlights as well (46:51) the need for accountable relationships yeah you know um and to have men and women who will come who love us and will come and speak the truth to us you know and for that guyy take was a Christian yeah you know for him to say that he there's only one word I think scripture says of that and that is he's deceived I know people don't like that word but James talks about how the enemy can deceive us but he also James says that we can deceive ourselves and I think you know when we get to that stage where we saing ourselves when we can contradict (47:29) what scripture says or try and round scripture to say what we wanted to say we're in trouble yeah yeah you know we are really in trouble because it's contrary you know God is never going to contradict his word yeah and that's actually one of the comments uh someone said here um the only thing solid and steadfast is the word love that statement Dave means we can trust God and I think that's true I think there's a re Revelation an understanding I suppose of God's word isn't there is the the more you walk with Christ the more hopefully you come to understand it um that doesn't mean to say you still can't (48:08) deceive yourself but coming back to hang around with people that are going to that are going to hold you to account on that you know and and keep short accounts and I think they're they're amazing life-giving relationships you know and and and they keep you keep you on that path uh which is which is brilliant so next week you're talking I am about the image of God you've done a slight plug is there anything else you want to say about that hopefully it's going to be really good no pressure no hope it's going to be really useful um coming from a slightly um different approach I'm going (48:46) for literal text on it and um I found I found it really Illuminating you know um I think you know when we sat under the word of God we should be expecting God to speak to us yeah it's part of the transformation faith comes by hearing the word of God and we want to be challenged you know we've heard Jen bring the word tonight and that brings a challenge because it's the word of God it's not just a good idea you know and I think we need to be men and women who RIS discover what it is to lay hold of the word of God and saying I (49:26) don't fully understand it's difficult but I'm going to stand on it yeah yeah very good uh we're going to get into all of that and more over the coming weeks next week Alexa is Dave speaking do come join us for that Jack and Anna are hosting Jack is Jen's uh other Hoff um I nearly said better Hoff but I didn't want to get the slap coming across um but yeah Jack and Anna are hosting so come join the three of them next week which would be great just thank you so much for joining us this week do you enjoy it thank you being an absolute pleasure to be here thank you very much how did you find the whole speaking hosting question thing yeah (50:05) great I mean I quite enjoyed it this was your idea so yeah you sound surprised yeah well I enjoyed it I guess I was thinking because you know preparing for something like this like I've literally put hours and hours and hours into thinking and praying about this so I guess sometimes then there might be questions that come up that um with all those thoughts might be able to answer so yeah enjoyed it thank you very much for having that's been great and in two weeks time you're talking more about the tree yeah (50:31) well and unpacking a little bit of like the question of okay God put the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil there don't we need the knowledge of Good and Evil is that not something we need okay good question so why does God say no so just going to unpack that a little bit more fantastic well that's coming up in two weeks time so make sure you stay connected with us for that uh we are going to end the live stream in just a minute just one more thing to say really if you've been watching this and you're still with us you're still online uh Zoe is going to put in the comments um a (51:03) link a Google link so it's go. crow. Church MeetMe go. crow. Church meetmeet normally we do that at 8 we're going to mix it up tonight we are just we will be there in like a minute as soon as the live stream um has ended uh I will go to the back of the hall while worship carries on here and I will see you online come and say how is it be great to meet you uh almost face to face so yeah come and say hi hi in Google we will see you in there Z did you put that in the comments yep it's in the comments so uh do meet me there in about two minutes time but thank you so much for joining us do stay connected with us any (51:44) prayer requests obviously do send them through we would love to pray for you and all of that good stuff any questions anything everything's on the website go to www. crow. church there's only three W's uh but just go to crowd. (52:01) Church everything will be there anything notes from you guys you put your mic down so you finished yep anything eles from you see you next week see you next week all right God bless you bye guys [Music] [Music] [Music]
