Breaking Out of Our Comfort Zone: Being Part of an Eden Team

hey there and welcome to what's the story we're an inquisitive bunch of hosts on a mission to uncover stories about faith and courage from Everyday People in doing that we get the privilege of chatting with amazing guests and have the opportunity to delve into their faith Journey the hurdles they've overcome and the life lessons they've learned along the way if you enjoy our podcast don't forget to subscribe and sign up for our Weekly Newsletter at our website what's Theory podcast.com it's your direct to the latest episodes and detailed show notes delivered straight to your inbox what's the story is brought to you by crowd Church who fully understand that stepping into a traditional Church might not be everyone's cup of joe so crowd Church provides a digital Sanctuary a safe space to explore the Christian faith where you can engage in meaningful conversations rather than just simply spectating so whether you're new to the Christian faith or in search of a new church family visit crowd. church and if you have any questions just drop them an email to hello crowd. Church they would love to connect with you and now let's meet your host and our special guest for today so welcome to what's this let me look at the camera welcome to what's the story my name is Matt Edmonson I am with Tom Grant who um we've met recently uh really really recently actually we've sort of connected isn't it like maybe five six months ago when we came onto the show definitely yeah definitely um we we had you over on our podcast yeah yeah in the in the bar at V bar at vegans which is the freezing cold I think I had a really bad stinking cold that night as well oh you're a great value though we really enjoyed it we I felt like we were nice to you I felt we were kind so you very gracious expecting the same treatment I'm sorry you're going to be disappointed dang it so if you don't know uh you are a Baptist Minister that's right in North Liverpool and you and your fellow Minister Allan run a podcast called Wednesday night at finegan that's correct yes Alan finegan is his name you do this in Allen's Back Garden he built a shed didn't he during covid that's it I think with a piece of string and a plank of wood and it's still standing somehow somehow it's still standing so every Wednesday night we're in the bar yeah we have a guest in and we spend the evening having a point talking about life and faith and everything in between and it's all live streamed isn't it on YouTube and Facebook when it works it's live streamed we're not quite a slick in operation as this so uh when it works I don't know about I don't know about s so yeah when we it was it was just such good fun the way what you guys do if you've not checked it out check out Wednesday night at finans it's what you guys do is great I just love it and it's just very funny uh very down to earth very humorous and um so I thought yeah we'll get you on to the what's the story podcast we going to dig deep into that um I should also say uh that you are married to Emma you have three kids slightly younger than mine we've deduced they are 131 and N that's Elijah hope and Eden 13 and in Eden is the link you you you also work for in the on the Eden project for so that's how I moved to um Liverpool to be part of an Eden team is part of the message so that's my that's my day job which is being a minister as a side hustle until they work out what I'm doing and so yeah daytime I'm with the message trust working fantastic Christian charity based in Manchester yeah done all sorts over the years most recently Community groceries um you know during lockdown seeing the lead uh the food poverty experienced across the UK yeah uh met the need uh 60,000 members across the UK now at these Community groceries 21 locations um feeding people uh for much reduced price just beautiful beautiful Ministry doing wonderful things and it's a joy to be part of it yeah no I imagine it is and it's it is remarkable we've got something similar at front line they've got the food Hub thing there great same sort of thing you know and I think part of them is like it's great that churches are doing this but it's sad that they have to you I mean there's this sort of real tension isn't there between oh there's a need in the community and the church can actually do something or and Christian Ministries can get involved which I think is good and bring the gospel into that and but it's just sad that in a a nation that's as wealthy as ours that we need to do that with that service terrifying it's terrifying if you if you dig into the statistics around poverty in the nation especially children experiencing poverty it's astounding just it's terrifying that we're seeing something like that happen in the in the UK and so I think the church is doing what the church has always done which is have a go at TR make a difference and we don't always smash it we don't always get it right no get a lot wrong but we're keen yeah we'll have a go we'll have a go and um you know people are you know I think what's great about the groceries is it's it's not just the the food that they're it's not just feeding people but and often I think the food is a symptom of a problem going on you know and so it's it's about relationships it's about connecting with people plugging them into community and getting them the help they need so um it's fantastic so how long have you been with the message so I've been with the message for about 10 10 years now doing Eden so um Eden was is basically a community project where Christians move into the government has what they call the indices of mol ball deprivation and so Eden teams focus on those communities that fall within the highest 10% on the most deprived in those those uh communities that face significant challenges beautiful places fantastic people who have just been battered you know by um by many things and so we moved there 10 years ago to start an Eden team Christians partner with a local church they move onto an estate to live there long term to to make that home but also to share share their lives and their faith yeah and so our joy to have done that for 10 years so I've been in Liverpool for 10 years I still sound like a Tor they they they call me Tory Tom which I think is affectionate but I'm not sure cuz the banter thing up north is you know confusing cuz I always say to my wife you know cuz the family they give me banter and I say does that what does that mean I don't think they like me and she says no no no they like you and I say well what would they say if they didn't like me so so I'm I'm I'm hoping one day if I hang around in Liverpool long enough they adopt me yeah yeah I think that's that's a good way to think about it I think that's a good way I've been in Liverpool 31 32 years now um I came here to not to do anything as glamorous the Eden project um I I joined I did the University thing okay and um I came up I chose Liverpool just because of the football team that was it really yeah yeah not because of the course not because it was a great course just because of I was a big Liverpool fan always have been and um came up did the uni I just literally become a Christian like six months before I came to University okay um on a gap year over in the states and so um I was brand new to the whole Christian thing when I came to UNI and just loved it you know met uh Dave Connelly who you you great know really well great guy um and yeah he took me under his wing do you know grahe Jones yes gr's a good guy we've had him in the bar of course yeah you've had him in the bar yeah yeah I need to get him on this podcast actually should get his because he's just such a great guy Graham would come around the halls of residence um to see me when I was at Uni and you'll understand Graham when we get him on the podcast but uh my my kids just call him big Graham because he is he's a big F he's a big guy and um he's he's he's even all these years later he still looks like a drug dealer doesn't he just never managed to sort of Shake That Shake that because he he has what we can call it a checker past maybe I think that's fair to say I think he check past and um him and a guy called Chris who also has a bit of a check past Chris Rice would come around to my Halls of residence and there was a security guard at the front he was supposed to stop people wondering in and just like who you here to see and whatever never once would he stop them just and they for the longest time they thought I was dealing drugs in the in the halls of residence they came up they asked me once said are you doing drugs I'm like oh no they're from friends from church I love it and so yeah they sort of took me under their wing a little bit and discipled me in the ways of just craziness and um so yeah yeah that's how I ended up here yeah long time ago it's a great City we can't is em from she's local she's from Nether and originally so um she I can't imagine us leaving it's just we love it we love it unless we get kicked out we're [Laughter] staying you need to do identity papers that's so how did you how did you become a Christian then would because I mean to be fair Tom deciding to move up north from the Tory South and and live on an States it's not the life goal of many people right let's just be real it's like it's the complete opposite you're doing the exact opposite which is I'm going into an area of deprivation rather than trying to move out and up into the bigger and better houses all the time um strikes me I I imagine for a bunch of people that sounds a little bit odd so what's the driving force in some respects to that what happened to you to sort of in terms of your own Christian journey to to sort of bring that about yeah yeah well I think my parents came to Faith when they were in their late teens and um my dad was in a motorbike gang like I've seen pictures I've seen evidence of it it's hard to believe I need to see those pictures I don't think they're on Facebook but they must be out there I need to get them into the digit world for everyone to enjoy but he was part of a motorbike gang um came to Faith very radically and so um for him it was like night and day like suddenly realized there was God and thought if there is a God I better do something about it and so for him he just went like he does in everything he went full on like full on into it and um you know so just my life has been kind of I've had a front row seat in my early years to seeing my dad just tried to follow Jesus and probably you know my mom as well just fantastic examples maybe not always get it right but just be really bold going for it so even when my mom was pregnant with me I think the church was looking to buy a building the church was growing you know loads of exciting things happening so they took an offering to um you know try and raise some funds to buy this building and so Mom and Dad both prayed you know about a figure of money to give yeah and um they both came up with exactly the same figure so they thought this like probably God we so but they didn't have the money they didn't like God said oh yeah give this much and they're like think well we don't have that much God so they sold their house wow to get the money wow to give to the church then they rocked up and knocked on the pastor's door and said we've got nowhere to live we come and stay with you and and as like as a minister now I think um would I let those people in but thankfully Minister did say him in and so that was kind of I was literally born into that kind of atmosphere and grew up seeing Mom and Dad just take steps of Faith yeah and seeing God meet them where they were yeah and so that was my upbringing really and saw Dad and Mom uh dads ended up buying a massive circus tent and going out and sharing Faith across Europe he pray for the sick um Jesus would move and heal people and so this is my upbringing really so I kind of was like okay this God thing's real like it felt you know and so I better you know I came to that place where I thought well I better do something about then and so that's what I've been trying to do I guess for the last uh you know 20 years and again um getting it wrong more often than right but it's I've seen the same like that Adventure that Adventure that my dad like Mom and Dad have experiened that's a great word actually Adventure that whole Faith sort of stepping out just taking the risk because you feel like God's told you to do it yeah I mean that's it's a great life in a lot of ways I mean scary but it's terrifying and it's not always has definitely not always gone to my plan you know or how I thought it might end up I guess moving to Liverpool was another one of those things you know we were in the South we didn't have really any plans to move back to Liverpool even um you know even though Emma was based was based in Liverpool she grew up in Liverpool we were you know really well settled but we had we were a part of a local church but we just felt God prodding us um and felt like there was time for a move and so we had no idea where but handed in my notice in the role that I was doing and just kind of thought well we're ready like when God says and you sat there thinking well say something then God and finally we came across the work of um the Eden Network yeah and so this idea of um partnering with churches on Estates to um move there longterm to make make home and and love the people there and and so we we just something within our spirit like strange way to term term to use but just something within us just like wow that's it yeah and excitement so we were almost like sign us up where are we going so we went to the website and looked and top of the list was neon NE in North Liverpool where my wife was uh born where she was raised the church they were partnering with was a church uh her parents got married in and so your jaw hits the floor and we were just like no no way no way and um do you know what God doesn't always speak that clearly but when he does you better listen you better listen yeah just pack up the car and go man and so that was us so we um yeah we we moved up and um it's just been a joy yeah it's been a joy I think rather arrogantly we thought oh we're coming to you know to you know oh like as if we've got Jesus in the boot of our cars or we're coming to do something amazing do you know what we have been so blessed Way Beyond what we've given in by our community by the people who live there sure like you know statistics don't tell a story do they you know they they tell one story but the people there are beautiful lovely people who have loved us and cared for us in the ups and downs of life and do you know what if we've blessed them as well um would be overjoyed by that yeah yeah um but they uh it's yeah we're 10 years in it's been beautiful it's been brutal it's been ups and downs it's been walking with people and loving them the best we can and having them love us and what a joy so did you have any expectations when you I mean you you said that you kind of came with Jesus in the boot but um you're moving into an estate in netherton and you you've been there 10 years now can you look back to your sort of 10 year younger s and go well you got that right and you got that wrong yeah I think I think we've got a lot wrong I think we um I think when we first came we maybe had expectations that everyone would start coming along to church everyone would fit my picture of what a Christian looked like or you know and I I was quite closed minded if I'm honest um about what that could be and what i' and what I found is that faith that Jesus is very present on my on my estate NE and he's very present and beautiful ways he turns up in all sorts of places that surprise me that have nothing to do with me and he's there at work and um I think what has also surprised me is that people are just people's Faith people have faith there is a real openness to Faith people can look in their life and see that you know whether what name they put to it what they think about that that there's some kind of other force and that I was just have met that time and time again like you know and Jesus did that all the time didn't he and I'm not putting myself in the place of Jesus at all but he would just go around and find great faith wouldn't he in the unexpected places he'd go you know us as a church we think oh we've got all the faith we've got a commodity on faith but actually Jesus was going out with people that weren't the the people that he you know should have been finding Faith could I find he said can I find Faith you know in Israel where I thought I'd find it but he finds it in the Roman Centurion he finds it in all sorts of surprising well surprising places to me but not to him and so um that's that's what we found and we've seen we have um seen people come become part of the church and become part of the community and church looks beautiful I say it's the best church I've ever been in and that's nothing to do with me it's a bit to do with Alan Alan's good um but it is beautiful because people feel welcome in any way they they want um you know in any way they come they feel welcome they don't feel judged and I I saw something on social media when I was Doom scrolling the other day and I totally butcher this quote now Doom it was yansy and he was talking about a guy who was um an Al an alcoholic battling with alcohol addiction yeah and he said when he goes to church and he's late he feels like people look at him and judge him and say you know kind of think well what have you been up to you know have you fallen off the wagon but equally said when he goes to Alcoholics Anonymous and he's late he says they stop the meeting and they come and they Embrace him and they welcome him yeah and they know that he almost didn't make it yeah and I'm so blessed that I feel I can relate more to the our church can relate more to the Alcoholics Anonymous situation than maybe that experience of church and I get it that is a lot is often people's experience of church but you know it's it's messy it's people are walking in late they're just saying hello as they AR we chat we have people up on on a sofa on the stage and they come and share you know share what's been going on in their lives we open the scripture together we pray so it's it's it's wonderful fantastic it's wonderful fantastic I've heard a lot about the C the couch on the stage yes that's it it's a big talking point it's like you're a church with a couch on the stage oh cool yeah well it is yeah and we thought to be honest that was just for lockdown like we um you know during lockdown uh I just thought I said to Alan we should do something online you know and Alan was just like no he said it's going to be cheesy and Christian and terrible and we're rubbish at technology and I thought you know talk for yourself but we had I've watched a YouTube video I'm doing come on how hard can it be that's my exactly M can do it anyone can do it and so we had a guy a young lad at the back who'd been coming to church off the estate for years it turns out he's an expert technology does Guitar Hero videos go online nonstop so I kind of said oh could you help us like yeah of course I've been doing this for years so um me him and Allan would uh do this live streaming thing on the and we we wanted the sofa cuz we wanted to be comfortable we don't want to stand up yeah I just want to sit down and chat so um Allan you know Allan's a bit of an introvert so he says lockdown was the time of his life didn't see any people no one in church you could just talk to him through a camera but um he's he's half jesting I think but we Brit's Got Talent as well he has yeah some introvert so yeah well that's it semi-final Britain's Got Talent um go and watch the video first one he was cracking the second one was a bit of a he split the audience to be fair did he split the judges I think he was talking he was talking about a funeral um he's very good at funerals Allan does them beautifully like and we you know just get you know some funerals where people can come and share and and and talk about their loved ones in beautiful ways get the opportunity to do that Allan does a great job but he's had a fair few funny occurrences and funerals including you know things like people going out of the you know the cofin from being carried out to Highway to Hell you know like that you know stuff that wouldn't necessarily happen in a normal in a normal way normal way but yeah to Allan it's it's just one of those things that happens yeah for him it's normal so he joke he made some jokes about that on Britain's Got Talent which um during a pandemic maybe wasn't wasn't the time to do it and I felt bad because i' kind of encouraged him I thought it's going to be this Beau moment where he would bring some healing to the nation you know who was struggling a lot you a lot of people losing loved ones it turns out I just spent a long time um answering all the complaint letters never knew people still wrote letters and put stamps on them but oh they do yeah they do we have um I was telling someone yesterday we have this e-commerce company uh that's my day job is online sales and um we still get people sending letters in with a check wow yeah send me this product here's the check for it figure on the check Jack is entirely wrong just like oh dear oh dear and so we just I think they do it deliberately cuz I'm just part of the time I'm just like send the product I don't yeah send not worth a don't all start sending me letters that's it that's it that's how you price of a stamp I can get all these vitamins just the way it works yeah now I realize actually there's a I I didn't realize this till the other day using the banking app on your phone you can take a picture if anyone sends you a check oh you can send you can use the app take a photo of it and it pays it straight into your account Game Changer that genius it's a game changer why did we not do that so I just start taking photos of the checks now so I will cash them not if I sign it Mickey M no I'm still going to cash did you ever do that when you were younger just I don't know if you when I was younger and I got my first checkbook I would sign all kinds of random things Luke Skywalker Mickey Mouse all that kind of stuff they all got through really that all works yeah no one ever this was back I mean to be fair you know me and Noah used to hang out I've been around a little while and it's um it's one of those where yeah when writing checks just St a laugh I they used to be in the I never tried it part one the think maybe one of my biggest regrets in life um was never writing a check for a million quid just to see if it would actually go through I've seen that movie catch me if you canio maybe we can do this with let's get get camera out let's TR get in a check see what happens if if this comes out this episode is going to be used in the court of law as evidence yeah me and you are going to be in Mexico somewhere at least we'll be wealthy that's it yeah he said he wanted to stay in Liverpool forever there is of living it up in Cuba yeah that's so cheap so you've been doing um Eden them for 10 years you've got the church the couch on the stage because you want to be comfortable and you're just going to keep doing that which I I think is awesome um you don't want to move but like you said it's it's been both beautiful and brutal yeah so let's talk about some of the challenges then that you guys have faced um that you know sort of God's helped you overcome what what are some of the big big rocks the challenges I I mean I'm I I just it love spending time with people and so I think the challeng is for me I'm not like if we do projects for me it's always about getting to know people through those projects like I'm not a fan of a project for a sake of a project so all the things we've tried to do have just been like opportunities for us to get to know people and uh get to spend time with them and so I think the greatest challenges and the greatest joy have been with those people you know with those people where um greatest Joys where we've seen God move in their lives whether they'd call it God or not whether where we've seen people um come out of addiction you know come out of um depression come into Community into life those are the greatest Joys but I think also no one's journey is ever linear and so some of the greatest pain is where people fall off the wagon again or people uh have breakdowns in their relationships or friendships and it's painful it's super painful and I think part of the Church gig and part of the Jesus gig is to have an open heart to people but often uh but then that hurts that hurts when it goes wrong or when I get it wrong i' I try you know try in my wisdom to do something that I think is a good thing and I get it wrong and I hurt someone else and those are the things that will keep you up at night yeah those are the things you'll struggle with um but I think you know in the Bible it talks about one of my favorite passages of scripture is where Jesus and this comes throughout throughout scripture this heart that Jesus has for people who are struggling yeah for people who are struggling and it says in the Bible um Jesus actually says if you if you do something to the least of you know people people who are struggling basically if you if you look after people then you're doing it to me you know there's that he Jesus says I so care about people who have having it crappy in life that if you serve those people or love those people or go out you know whatever you know you could a go then you're doing it to me and that experience of meeting I've had that that experience of where meeting Jesus in the faces of people we get to Journey yeah life with yeah and what a privilege you know what an absolute privilege and um beautiful places that you find him at work and doing stuff but also and what I love about Christian faith is that you find him in the pain as well and sometimes he's not sometimes I think well why isn't he s just sorting this pain out and sorting the problem out yeah and that doesn't always happen often it doesn't happen but he's there in the in the pain in the struggle he's been there in my pain in my struggles and so often and it's horrible and weird you often find God really present when you're struggling and I don't it wouldn't be like my recommendation for people like how do I meet Jesus just go find some pain you'll be fine go and find some pain but oh my words um he present there and so we've had moments where yeah we've got it wrong or relationships have broken down with people who are you know I would consider family and some of those relationships haven't yet been restored and you know hope one day they they might be but um those those have hurt and those do hurt and I think we've had to make a choice at times and I think we all have to make choices around you know actually Dave connley gave me some advice once when um it had all gone pair shape one one of the multiple occasions I'd made a mess again God's just like again like I know you're supposed to be full of grace but dude you're testing me right now that's it and I honestly thought we were going to have to move we were going to have to move away and um that may and um and no we you know it wasn't right to do that we needed to to dig in and stay where we were but you know Dave said to me you've got to be care you know you're not moving physically but you've got to be careful you don't move in your heart you know you put up the barriers you put up the the walls and um actually I found that in that season when I was most broken you know those people who I thought I was coming to love and serve that was the season when they loved and served me yeah when I had nothing to offer yeah and uh I just saw I just received Jesus in their midst and um just a joy yeah just a joy so um yeah so so that's been uh that's been my experience and and in those challenges uh there's no easy answers is there there's no easy answers there's no quick wins there's no three-point sermons begin all beginning with the letter P there's definitely no Instagram quote that's going to help you there's not there's not but there's um there's people people and G gathering together journeying together and and and believing in faith that Jesus will meet you in the midst of that pain and struggle yeah and he does he does he does every time every time you're right it's um it's it's one of those iring things isn't it about the Christian faith that actually quite often it's in those massive moments of pains that you have the biggest Encounters of Christ really um and we see that in the gospels don't we just people just at the end of something and they have a radical Encounter With Jesus and it's the people that think they've got it all together the sort Jesus walks past quite a lot sometimes cuz they're all sorted M and uh and actually it's when we're I think we're in an age now Tom I don't know if you if you think the same but I it feels like we're in an age now where we don't accept any real responsibility for our actions we we label ourselves as victims right the whole move of it's not my fault it's your fault because of the way you did this or the you know Society does this or they treat me like this I'm not wrong everybody else is wrong Society is wrong but it's in it's in that ability to look at yourself and say hang on a minute it's not all right is it to to to be able to look at you and go yeah and accept that Brokenness um which is probably not a popular word in in a lot of ways that's when you meet Jesus it's just it's just what happens it's when we put the pride aside for sure and I don't know what it is in human instincts that feels like we res we just in terms of faith and coming into you know to a church or you know deciding to explore Faith there's again and again this feeling that we have to be sorted in order to do that yeah and it's it just never going to happen it's never it's never going a million years I speak for myself but it's no it speaks for me as well that's fine but it's just not going to happen that way it's like it's like a someone who needs an operation they need a life-saving procedure but they feel like they have to get healthy enough before they bring their life to the surgeon to do it do you know what I mean yeah no that's exactly right I think that's what is is tricky but that and I think at times those of us who call ourselves Christians and look to follow Jesus we get wrong we don't extend that offer of Grace you know either through words or actions or the way we treat people when they come into our building which by by you know by the way if you come into a church building nowadays and you're not from a church background God bless you like that's a terrifying thing to do culturally and so if you've made that move and managed to overcome that um coming into a totally different culture to you then God bless you I hope you find yourself a good church there um but yeah that's if you you know that's the thing we need to be we need to be welcoming people we need to be um for them to find that that same God yeah who we claim to worship and serve and you know and throughout the Bible it seems from my understanding when I look at it again and again you know the Bible talks about us as being God's children and you know also says that God doesn't show faith favorites but I I look in the Bible and he seems to like have favorites and it seems to be anyone who's struggling do you know do you know me and Dave Conley used to have this constant banter about who was God's favorite constant banter and so he would say I'm guessing you thought it was you mat and Dave thought it it was him yeah yeah good guess and so I mean I was Play Let me just clarify before you start writing letters to me um ask him for your free supplements and telling me my theolog is wrong but um we used to sort of playful so Dave would say things like how you doing I'm say Dave I'm you've got to be doing all right when you're God's favorite just it's and he would say well I don't how would you know because I'm God's favorite and I go you are deceived beyond all levels of deception we would just have this banter and it would very playful back and forth well the the B the scripture seems to say God's fa again and again God has no favorites but his favorites seem to be those struggling those people on the edges and I thought about this and wondered cuz I've got three children and I've not got a favorite which one's your favorite I just saying cuz they do watch they watch Wednesday night at vegans so I have to be careful they will watch this and they will batter me with it if I say something inappropriate or wrong so they so I've got three children I haven't got a favorite but you know what the one that is often on my mind or who I'm praying for I'm looking to spend time with is the one who's struggling yeah the one who getting bullied at school or the one who's going through a tough time with their mates and they're the ones on my heart on my mind and my thoughts and I think that's what God's like his favorites are those who are struggling who are on the on the edge who are finding it difficult and they're the ones that are on his mind and actually as a church you know if we're thinking ourselves as a church we want to reflect you know the church you know Jesus uh started the church he's the son of God he's you know we we're called the body of Christ we're supposed to be the body you know we're supposed to be doing things as Jesus would have done and if we're going to do that then we really need to make sure people if they if they come a Christian or they build up the confidence to step foot in the church my words we've got to welcome them in that the way that Christ you know welcomed us AB no absolutely Mike drop moment there I think I totally agree and I think and it doesn't matter if they're 10 minutes late it's like we still Rejoice I'm normally 10 minutes late to be honest they can't start the service to I get there they clap you as you come in they don't clap throw things at tomatoes but no it's totally right there's a a phrase that I heard once at bible school always stuck with me that so often as Christians we try and clean the fish before we catch it right do you know what I mean and it's that I remember um because with crowd church we obviously get a lot of people connecting with us that don't go into the church building just yet it's much easier to get involved with something online um and you get asked questions you know people text in um well WhatsApp uh or they'll email in their questions um uh you know um and I'm always intrigued by what people ask who haven't got really any Christian background about what it is to belong in church because if they're thinking that there's a thousand other people which are thinking that right yeah and we had one lady contact us and said um really want to be I think I really want to become a Christian I've been going we have an online Alpha course I've been going through some of the stuff on Alpha great this is a bit of my background but I just like well my partner and I live together we have a kid he doesn't particularly want to get married so does that stop me becoming a Christian and so it's really interesting isn't it and you you kind of go well how do you answer this question you go well I don't need to clean the fish before we catch it you know in fact I don't need to clean the fish that's the holy spirit's job right there just you have had it the Holy Spirit and so um and I think the problem is that sometimes as church leaders we we would tend to go well before you can come to church you've got to either marry them or end the relationship or do this and the other and I just there's a lot of gray in that whole it's not actually black and white there's a lot of gray and I think you're right I think just being welcoming just going no no there's Grace come on in you know and I think I came across um a way of thinking about this which I found really helpful for me and it was it pictured Christianity as I in two two different ways and so firstly it was either this like um this boundary that you have to cross in order to be a Christian and so that boundary could be you know saying a prayer it could be getting baptized it could be your life looks tidy and you behave yourself you know um I've never achieved that but but that's there a bar that's that that's the barrier to entry and if once you and different churches will have different barriers but once you cross that you know you pass that test that barrier you're in yeah whereas um I've heard you know the second example of what it could be like to following Jesus is that Jesus is at the center of a circle and we're all at different distances from him yeah but it's more about which way we're facing yeah you know are we facing towards Christ and so you could have someone super close to Jesus they've been a Christian their whole life born in the church you know and all that and so if they started to I don't know if they said like a a swear word or something you might be like oh Cy what's going on here you know um you know might better check in and see if they're okay but you'll get people who maybe you know haven't just exploring what Christianity means have Maybe started to make that half turn towards Jesus and maybe maybe they're still doing drugs maybe their life doesn't look you know what whatever that thing might be you know that unhelpful behavior that they're having but they're moving towards Christ yeah they're moving towards him and actually it's got to be his responsibility to change us like that's the that's the gospel that I'm saying I can't do it I've broken every New Year's resolution I've ever made and I've done it within the first week of January and we're there again and I can't change myself I can't change myself and thank God he doesn't expect me to it is that like you say it's that coming turning towards God just making that half turn and the scripture talks about the prodical sun just my favorite par and like what the joy of it is is that you know that the person who's returning home you know after having gone away asking for all his dad's money you know while he's still alive like um I can't imagine trying that with my dad some of that mo motorcycle gang culture will come back out in him again hey but he's asked for all of his dad's money if he going to do it let's do it on video yeah I'm going to write a letter ask him to send me a check and so the dad yeah you know he's took all his dad's half his dad's money he's taken his heritance early he's gone and wasted it crazy living he realized he's mistake going back to the the father and he's you know making his apology in his head getting ready to be a servant in his dad's home and you know the scripture says that the father runs out to meet and and Embraces him you know before the sun can even get a word of the apology out it's like bear hug yeah lifted him and off his feet and what does that tell me about God it tells me that we you know God's we worship a God who scans The Horizon looking for those signs of people coming home and they don't have to have sorted it all out they don't have to have made it all right but he welcomes them home anyway and so go what if the church looked a little bit more like that hey it' be amazing wouldn't it it would be it would be totally amazing and there's some fantastic churches I don't mean I'm not beating up on the church I love the church you know and our you know our church is I say it's the best Church like you know a little bit tongue and cheek but you know we make mistakes as well but um you know there's a lot of beautiful Christians out there good hearted people who are who are doing this stuff and sometimes as a church it's just trying to better reflect that isn't it yeah it is yeah it is and yeah totally I I and I love that story that idea of the prodigal son you know before he gets chance to apologize there's the grace do I mean grace always comes first and the Bible says it's the goodness of God that leads you to repentance which is in other words if you need to turn your life around just start looking at the goodness of God right and whenever you look at the goodness of God things things in life changed and I think that's still true for me now even 30 years into my Christian Journey you know and it's so powerful it's not the checklist that leads to change it's not the self-help that leads to change it's not the motivational speech you know it's it's the goodness of God and sometimes we try those things don't we as the church we we Nick a bit of culture you know so we try to be a bit self-helping or we try to you know uh you know communicate in a way that the call you know communicators are doing it all hip and trendy which is just something i' you know will not surprise you I've never been able to I've tried it youve tried I tried it often I'll do that I'll come downstairs and something I'm wearing that I think Hip and trendy and Emer will say go back upstairs did you know what my wife said to me the other day I was wearing uh an interesting outfit is one way to describe it I had I had these pajama bottoms on which have got Goonies prints on cuz I'm a big Goonies fan I won't B you with the story but I'm a big goon is fan and I had on my um I have I have one of those sort of dry robe things that you know you changing at the beach but it keeps super yeah I love that I've had one of those for a few years and and we we've got a bench in our back Garden quite often in Winter I'll put that on go sit outside and read and just pray and it's just lovely so I came down with my hair just disheveled and I had my my Overcoat on and I had my very goony pajama bottoms and Sharon just looked at me and said I don't have anything to worry about do I you're in this for Life yeah I said I said to her what do you not think I'm an attractive person she went if I close my eyes you're an attractive person Emma took away my buying clothes privileges I'm she buil that for me so you know that's what oh well maybe that's the next step I've still managed to buy my own clothes usually what I'm not allowed to do is buy Sharon's clothes well yeah that's that goes about saying I did it the first the first year we were together um Christmas present I thought I'd buy some clothes I'd never made that mistake again she didn't want goon pajamas just didn't want it St trying to force her to wear them it's just interesting I'll keep trying keep going keep going you know yeah never mind never mind so yeah no it's fascinating absolutely fascinating but you're right I think if the church looked like that if it actually focused a a good friend of mine called Rich Rising he he's um he lives in Dallas Texas one of the most amazing people on the planet love the bones off the fella and he's he's actually a church consult I don't know what his official title is but he helps churches grow it's what he does it's his job um and one of the things that he absolutely drives home at a million miles an hour um if you want any kind of growth in your churches you've got to think about the one and not the 99 wow and it's such a powerful and again if you're not familiar with scripture there's a story in the Bible where Jesus talks about a Shepherd doesn't he with a bunch of sheep and he says you've got 99 sheep in just grazing just all happy just all safe protected but one of them wanders off he says what do you do and he's he's like uh the Good Shepherd goes and gets the BN sheep goes hunts it down puts it on his shoulder and brings it back to the safety of the pen and um I think if church was actually think about those that are outside of it um Nick Harding used to say and again Nick's been on crowd he's uh I think we've done a whats the story with Nick as well he he's one of the fan and pastors of Frontline with Dave con he always used to say and it always stuck with me the church is the only organization that exists for its non-members wow do you know what I mean yeah and you kind and you think well actually yeah if we if we really understood what that meant again how different would the church be you I mean and just again get not beaten up on the church cuz I I still think it's still the hope of the world isn't it the church in a lot of ways for sure and I and I think the the most and we we're not we're never going to get it right are we we're never going to be it's like uh we're doing our best God bless us please but it's we're never going to get it right and so yeah it's uh we but you know what we're aiming for you know the New Testament scripture when they start to try and work out what is this community of people who say they follow this guy Jesus like what how do we what is this what does this look like the the analogy they often reach for is one of family they talk about us being the family of a god of us being adopted God's adopted children of us being brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers and that is I think what what the world's looking for yeah they're not in a heartbeat yeah they're not looking for another club to join they've got enough of those to do you know enough think I've got enough places to take the kids I don't need another club to join I need family to belong to yeah that's what people need yeah and families come in all shapes and sizes you've got the weird Uncle you know at Christmas you've just you've just got one yeah none of my uncles obviously but all mine mine but every family is a little bit misshapen isn't it and that's the family of God um it's misshapen um you know we come in all different sizes and shapes but uh you know God says how great the love of God yeah that he's lavished on us that we could be called his children that's what we are that's it it's that adoption into God's family Chosen and so that's what when we get it right and it does happen that's that's it at its best isn't it that's the church at its best no totally and that's actually one of the things that we all strive for is this is what we want to build this is what I think when we go to bed at night and people say why do you do what you do because I think in some ways it's a thankless task you kind you've got this picture in your mind of actually you you understand what it could be and what of difference it can make to people's lives and you kind of like that's what I'm I'm sold out for in a lot of ways for sure yeah that's powerful what is it you do with the Eden Project let's get to the bottom of that M to it's like I moved into this estate 10 years ago but on a day-to-day basis what is it you actually do so it can it looks different for all different teams and different locations as it should because no one place is the same is it it's all different I think often Eden teams all have a focus on youth work to start with because I think it's a it's a perceived and real need in many communities it's that that sense of love for the Next Generation like where what are our young people able to do what you know can there be a safe place for them to go to and so we started there and with youth work we had some great times craziness craziness where young people like to push boundaries don't they and so we had all sorts of fun and games you know uh remember playing dodgeball and one of the kids set the balls on fire I got to tell you you try very hard to win dodgeball when it's on fire no doubt so we've done that we've done parents and toddler's thing we've got this Pantry Community grocery at the moment we've done you all sorts we've done Alpha courses we've done just whatever you know whatever we thought might bless people or or help help you know give them a hand or give us opportunity to get to know them so it's nothing but you know I think what Paul says in one of the his letters he says you know we loved you so much that we shared not only the gospel with you but our lives as well yeah and that's what I find people want yeah they don't just want to hear your words and the gospel you know whatever however well you can present it you know whatever way you can describe it um they don't just want that they want your life as well they want to see they want to get around your life they want to see you know and um often you know God shines through like we've already talked not in those moments where you know um me and Emma can put on a front where it looks like we're a perfect marriage but in those moments where people see me and EM a kickoff at one another but I can't believe that ever happen oh it does you better believe it but they always you know they see I find people can see it more in those kind of moments when they then you know I realize I'm in the wrong and I go and apologize and I CH you know we choose each other we choose to love one another even on the estate you know our neighbors know we've been screaming at each other they know we've been screaming at the kids cuz the you know the Ws are that thin and we we live you know so that's for me has has been th those those moments it's not just the activities we do you know any number of activities you know can obviously serve a physical need but I guess I you know my belief is that all those physical needs or difficulties or Brokenness that people have ultimately stem back to a spiritual need of relationship with their father and that all of those other things flow from including in my life and those Brokenness you know it comes from where I don't have a right relationship with God in aspects of my life yeah and so that's that's what we've done over those those 10 years and um you know I found that work you know being part it's being part of the Eden Network you know it's it's just a network of other people who are trying to do the same and so when it goes wrong you can cheer one another on you can people can say well I did that it didn't work why don't you try this instead and you've got that kind of camaraderie in it is so valuable and precious and um yeah so I that's what we found that's what we found while we've while we've been there that um often also interestingly and I sh I do share this is often what we've also found is that when we've tried to do something to bless the community and so we think oh here we are the church we're going to do something to the community you know aren't we great or whatever you know like we're trying to make a difference often what we've found you community are often always already doing these great things maybe we should come and join in with them and what they're already doing or actually if we do nail our colors to the MK and see a needs that's maybe not being met you know we get people you know rather than sometimes people coming to access that provision we get loads of people who want to come and say oh I want to join in with that I've seen that problem as well I want to help out and you know I think early days we thought oh well hang on you know do we need to check are you like are you a Christan like what going on here like I don't know my theology on this right like some Churches might be like well you can't give that person that person can't serve tea and coffee they've not known they're not a Christian they've not you know said the prayer or whatever it might be whereas what we've done is we've we've just let people crack on and get involved and we've joined them and actually we found that that's been a great way for people to to come to Faith yeah that actually as they join in with something you know that God's already at work in and doing as well join in yeah they real they come across God in in the in the on the journey yeah because he he's that's the kind of thing he's doing already in the community and actually often people come to Faith and they go ah do you know what God's always been there with me you know I didn't I can't see it until now but if I look back through my life you know I have met God at various different points and um I think that's been again that's been our experience and super helpful for me no it's super powerful as well because you what it sounds like listening to your talk Tom is none of what you're doing and I mean this with all due respect obiously none of what you're doing as rocket science no not at all you don't need any specialist qualifications you just need a heart for people by the sounds of things and actually a willingness to trust the people around you um but it I'm always amazed when churches are like that when it's like well you can't really serve because you're not really believer it's like it's a bit like going to a gym and looking at a PT and watching him do all the exercise and I can't I can't do it yet I can't can I do that little bit over there well no no no because you've got to do this this and this then you'll be able to do everything kind of like it just doesn't make sense does it no but getting involved a little bit is a way to get people involved a lot yeah um my my dad can do everything you know my dad's like superum like hero he could do everything like uh you build he can build he can do electric electri electrics he can do plumbing he can do all those different things and so I grew up you know watching him do it and but felt a bit inferior and so didn't have a go and so never picked up any of those skills and um you know now that I'm building the extension and he's got a help he's really regretting that he's really wishing that I'd taken a bit more initiative or he allowed me to get it wrong but in you know it's in that process like you say of having a go and I always remember the a mate of mine um his son he's building an extension he's very practical he's like my dad style and his son you know who was like four or whatever at the time you know he wanted to be involved in this this extension as well and so he would um they bought him you know like a little wheelbarrow and so um my mate was going into his garden shuffling soil bring it around the front and his little son take his little wheelbarrow and would be trying to do the same you know what sometimes the the little boy Harvey yeah he would be carrying the soil in the wrong direction and saying dad's trying to get the soil from there to there and hary's trying to get the soil back the other way and you know you know Ian was like said to me at one point he said you know I'm not sure like the net he's not helping in any way maybe a little bit at best but probably at most hindering but there was something about joining in the work of his father and his dad that was so precious it brought the son pleasure and joy it brought the father great joy and I think that's what it happens that's you know when we join in that business of Heaven that uh you know we join in the work of our father yeah you know um whether we know him as Dad or not whether we think he's real or not I think we experience the pleasure of God and the joy of that whether that being a buzz from getting doing something nice or you know whatever it is that seems to be built into every human do something nice and you get a buzz out of it or whether we we come and meet the person of God in in that moment and um that's what an incredible thing yeah what an incredible thing brilliant Tom listen been great chatting to you man I'm aware time has as flown by a thousand miles now as it has a habit of doing um if people want to reach out if they want to connect if they want to find out more about Wednesday night at finans or the Eden Project what's the best way to do that so I would you you can search on social media for Wednesday night at finans or the message trust or the Eden Network um you can find us all over that um or um yeah find me on social media drop me a message and I'll I'll say Hello send him a letter you yeah send me a letter and a check a check please you know that would be amazing if you prefer to do a direct bank transfer I can give you more details gu there a bit quicker don't sign it Mickey Mouse yeah no you should totally do that oh Tom what a legend thanks bro appreciate it thanks for having me and just like that we've reached the end of another fascinating conversation crowd church is a digital Church a community a space to explore the Christian faith and a place where you can contribute and grow to find out more check Che out www.c crowd. church and don't forget to subscribe to what's the story on your favorite podcast app we've got a whole lot of inspiring stories coming your way and we really don't want you to miss any of them what's the story is the production of crowd Church our fantastic team is made up of Anna Kettle Matt Edmonson Tanya hudac and myself sa fayan we work behind the scenes to bring these stories to life our theme song is the created work of Josh Edmonson if you're interested in the transcript or show notes head over to our website what's Theory podcast.com and sign up for our weekly newsletters to get all this goodness delivered straight to your inbox so that's all from us this week thank you so much for joining us and we'll catch you in the next episode bye for now