34: Trusting God in the Midst of Tragedy

hey there and welcome to what's the story we're an inquisitive bunch of hosts from the what's the story team on a mission to uncover stories about faith and courage from Everyday People in doing that we get the privilege of chatting with amazing guests and have the opportunity to delve into their faith Journey the hurdles they've overcome and the life lessons they have learned along the way if you enjoy our podcast don't forget to subscribe and sign up for our Weekly Newsletter at our website what's the storyplodcast.com it's your direct line to the latest episodes and detailed show notes delivered straight into your inbox and the best part it's totally free what's the story is brought to you by crowd Church who fully understand that stepping into a traditional Church might not be everyone's cup of joe crowdchurch provides a digital Sanctuary a safe space to explore the Christian faith where you can engage in meaningful conversations rather than just simply spectating so whether you're new to the Christian faith or in search of a new church family visit crowd.church and if you have any questions at all just drop them an email hello crowd.church they would love to connect with you and now let's meet your host and our special guest for today so welcome to what's the story ah my name is Matt Mr beside me is the beautiful and amazing Charlotte North Charlotte welcome to what's the story now um it says here in your bio uh you're married to Gavin uh you have two kids uh you are the head of little fingers charity which is a charity for bereaved parents you are and I love this the online location lead for your local church we will just call that Church Pastor we don't mention the word Pastor uh and you work at Christian vision and it's fair to say we've known each other for a couple years now because of the online Church space and so I'm super excited to get into this conversation welcome to the podcast great to have you how are you doing today yeah I'm great all the better for being here with you of course I'm finally here in person which is good yeah yeah we have talked about this for a long time uh but it's great to have you and I like I like the smooth talk in nature of it it's it's uh it's always nice to be flattered um but it's great to have you to the show it's great to have you on now um so you are I can tell by your accent you're for those outside of the UK you actually have quite a specific Regional accent don't you do you just want to tell the good ladies and gentlemen what what whereabouts in the world you are I'm a brummy which means I'm from Birmingham but I actually live in Solo Hall so uh which is the Posh part just outside of Birmingham so Birmingham airport is actually in solihull so there yeah a little known fact uh for you so you call it solihull I call it solihull yeah it depends where you are from [Laughter] obviously I'm not very Posh uh you know and so you're a brummy born and bred you've been there your whole life yeah yeah all my whole life although my entire family now live in Australia so just no seriously does she does she left are you gonna go out or are you going to stay here I would do lots of visits so uh yeah as long as you can afford to obviously but yeah yeah no fair enough fair enough well so we know each other through Christian Vision just explain what Christian vision is for those that might not know who are listening to the show so we're kind of we help Christians to share their faith but we also so we do that by several different things where we're trying to help churches to start those conversations with faith um and so what we call is called mobilizing the church and as well we try and mobilize people to encourage them and help them with skills to to share their faith and talk about Jesus and how long have you been doing that so I've been here for three years now yeah enjoying it yeah yeah that's great you've got to say that they're listening in right yeah yeah James will be watching this yeah no it's great it's a it's one of those jobs where you just think this I used to be a teacher and I was a consultant and then I went into working in events and some really big high flying jobs and then came here and I really felt called here by God and it's like I really can see why God's called me to this space for such a time as this you know it was lined up really well with the online location leader role at church as well as being here and I started actually on the 1st of April which is about the second or third day of lockdown so oh wow to a job if I was thankful to have a job so yeah yeah yeah and you guys do some great things you produce some great resources you help churches and individuals and so um what's the if people want to know more listening to it where do they go let's just do a quick Shameless plug before we get into the whole thing where do people go to and so they can check us out on the it was a website that's a Christian Vision website but on the Christian Vision website we've got direct links to all of our products so we've got for example CV resources which is an online tool kit of different videos and resources that churches can use we've got yes ears which helps Christians to share their faith so that's also on social media platforms and YouTube we're kind of in every bit of online space to an extent um we've got CV training so we do training for churches and then we've got Christian Vision Outreach as well which helps us to do online campaigns and reach non-christians through that as well yeah it's fantastic I remember um working with you guys and I uh we used to do this thing where you you guys did Outreach and some of those emails would come through to me people connected and I never forget sort of early on we had this one lady she contacted um she connected with us through one of your ads and uh sent a WhatsApp message through I'm just saying I'm just kind of curious about church and I'm like well where whereabouts do you live and I know somebody in that neighborhood and so that day she'd met up with them they'd gone to their local church she'd loved it she'd sort of got involved and stuck in and so what you guys are just amazing really just connecting uh people and getting them connected with local church and the Christian Church which was great but we're not here to talk about CV although it is a great organization um let's talk about you so Christian Journey let's start there was this is this a new thing for you were you did you come out of the woma Christian I mean what's your sort of your story there yeah no I wasn't brought up in a Christian home um I think we had well we had Christian morals like we'd go at Christmas my mom would talk about God very lightly and stuff but it wasn't until um I went to secondary school so all we went to a primary school where there was a lot of Christians that would come in oh there were actually Christians I shouldn't put them inverted comments and they'd teach lessons about the Bible and unpackable to me it was just really like yeah that's nice kind of thing so I think that taught me some foundations about the Bible it's for the basic stories and then when I went to secondary school we started going to the local youth club but the youth club was uh run by Christians from the local church and they used to have a little bit of a caveat of that I mean there were lovely people and it was a great place to hang out as teenagers you know a safe place to keep us off the streets because we were a little bit Rogue um some of the things they would on first for example like football clubs and stuff like that I love football and they brought in this guy who was a former pro footballer and they were like right he's going to teach you some football skills but the catch is at the end you have to listen to it for 15 minutes talking to you about Jesus so like we go and we'd learn all the football skills and then we'd sit there afterwards and just kind of heckle him and stuff but I think without realizing it a lot of that was seeping in um and then um the one summer they bought um a group of teenagers over from America who was coming who were coming over on it was like a mission trip and they just built relationships with us through the couple of weeks they were with us and then right at the very invited us to a um a night they were putting on where they just did a full-on church service Evangelistic event and most of my friends went forward on that night to say yes I want to know more however I had a curfew this is the Old school bit because I'd just gone home but my older brother did go forward uh but for me it was just a few months later that um I really um started to think right this is something for me um so I did I became a Christian at 13 I would say um had a couple of years I was doing like Alpha and all those kind of things but then when I went to UNI I was a bit like no I want to go down the drinking party and Route um and I literally remember waking up in my bed one morning after my third or fourth year Union just being like I'm done with this like I just feel empty and then I remembered how full and complete I'd felt as a Christian and going to church and something just drew me back and then just slowly you know I came started going back to church and I wasn't ready you know in in the I'm perfect now I'm ready to be a Christian it was just a I'm gonna go baggage and all yeah and that started to you know as I started going back to church all of that started to get sorted as I dealt with issues I was pushing aside I think so yeah yeah well so when you were at Uni then um what did you study psychology and sociology okay so these are interesting um interesting things to study in the wake of this sort of personal Awakening aren't they the whole I mean what did the psychology law graduate make of making all of this yeah it's quite a crazy thing I mean when you start unpacking it but I actually think the more you look at Psychology the more you can't can't say there's not a Creator because the more you unpack it the more you go wow we are absolutely incredibly designed um you know I mean I studied theology at a level as well and it was um some of these you know um arguments of the existence of God and it's one of them is about you know if I walk upon a more and I find a watch there's definitely a watchmaker so there must be a God and that's how they derive back then some of them are a little bit crazy but I think looking at Psychology and how we're made up as humans you're like everything points back to a God who is love and a God who created us you know uniquely and knitted us together in our mother's womb and I think that's exciting to to do that to explore that further yeah that sounds really fascinating I'd love to know how how that all work for you because I it's it's interesting isn't it when you talk to a scientist they'll talk to you especially Christian Science Christian Scientist is not Scientology but you know I mean that a scientist who's a Christian um you have to be careful how you word so many things Jesus uh but you talk to like a good friend of mine will um he's been on crowd Church he's um he's really passionate about science and for him science just point everything points back to God um and you know you kind of I I love what I do and you have a passion for it but you see God in in all of that don't you and so you with psychology you see God in that for some people it might be music for some it might be science whatever it is um and you can you can sort of see God in that whole thing and that's actually quite a wonderful place to be isn't it really yeah yeah and it and it reaffirms what you I think because I was never encouraged by my parents to go down the church route if anything they actually I remember the one day them telling us to get out because they thought we were part of a cult early teens they were just like what on Earth is going on um but actually I think all those sorts of things built a picture of for me of this is really true like I have made myself and everything points in this direction of Truth um yeah yeah super powerful super powerful so you go back to church during your I'm guessing your early 20s you're at University unless you do University really late as a mature student but I'm guessing you're in your early 20s um and you go back to church um is this where you meet Gavin yeah well Gavin I've known before because Gavin's younger than me so he was at the church anyway um I met him briefly before University and then obviously stopped going during the university so where I went back he was still there but because he was so much younger than me it just wasn't interesting um so it took a bit of time for me but uh yeah he's great um awesome guy and um it's been great watching him on his faith Journey as well because you know he brought up as a Christian but the other way around actually had some time then away from God a bit later on so that's been yeah okay how long have you been married 15 years 16 years and a couple of months so yeah congratulations very good very good so let's talk about some of the challenges that you've gone through then um in life that sort of God's been with you walked through with you and um I mean I know some of them I know part of your story um so you you you you leave University you get married I know that life is not all sunshine and rainbows from this point so um especially because you've got a charity for bereaved parents there's obviously some kind of Link there so what happened if I just rewind very very quickly so literally as I leave University I went to Soul Survivor the festival and we're kind of really for me about a year later I volunteered at it for the couple of weeks and at that God gave me a picture of my husband couldn't see his face and he had a daughter on his shoulders and he was he held a son holding hands with him walking towards me and he lifts the daughter down and they're both walking all of them are walking hand in hand towards me so it's important to remember that picture because then when I go into my journey it makes you go all the way through I was like oh what yeah but then it makes sense eventually so yes then we get married and about a month after being married I got a phone call from the doctor after I've been having some ongoing issues and they said um Mrs nor we think you've got endometriosis but quite severely to the point that we don't think you're going to have children of your own so for us it was very much well I'd have this picture Gavin had also done a gap here at church and had a prophecy that he was going to have two children we get together we both got the same names we've been given for our children we're like this is it we're definitely having kids we found the right person so literally to get that a month after like we've got married the world just comes crashing down um so yeah over the next months and years we're kind of trying for a baby and that puts massive pressure on you as a young married couple to think yeah but we both got this dream we want kids but actually is it going to happen are we going to have to pursue this um and so yeah it was it was difficult um but after five years we did get pregnant which was really exciting um and the church were with us on that Journey eventually and that was naturally as well we were just about to start the IVF Journey yeah um and so yeah so we were all excited got everything ready he found out it was a little boy um which was great very excited we knew we were going to court so our names would been given separately that when we got together we've got the same names were Noah and Grace okay because our whole church knew our journey everyone was saying to me oh this is Noah this is nowhere how exciting but something in me which and I know is obviously the Holy Spirit kept saying this isn't Noah something feels a bit different and as my pregnancy was progressing and progressing you know I was at eight and a bit months uh everything was you know fine no issues um and then I went for a routine scan and said to the the Midwife I've had a not a routine scan sorry a routine injection um and I said to the Midwife oh I've just had a bit of reduced movement lately but my Midwife said yesterday it's fine she said oh no we take that very seriously um and whisked me into a side room and unfortunately um our son had passed away um so I'd got to go to the hospital to be prepared to deliver and I do it naturally um and it was just all very confusing and you know when it's long to get pregnant and now this had happened um and so yeah it was it did feel like it was just that day where our world just came crashing down and yeah no kidding no kidding I mean well I'm sorry to hear that um you know that's just I can't I can't imagine what that was like Charlotte I'm not gonna lie I can't be in that position because that's not what happened to to me and Sharon it's not what happened to many couples but he I guess how did you then reconcile the the picture the dream the names um with that day because that that must have taken some time to get over I would have thought yeah yeah it did I mean initially I think you go into I mean grief is a funny thing anyway they talk about the waves of the different emotions and about how they lap and everything everything just feels different I think initially I went into this almost formality mode of right I've got to give birth in a couple of days then we've got to plan a funeral so you just kind of keep your head above water and so I think I went into that and I really thank God in that and I can clearly see Fingerprints of exactly where God lined up stuff to make it easier for me so for example you had to have so the hospital paid for the funeral of so we called the little boy Micah uh which about God's uh little prophet and who is there like God uh it's about his uniqueness so um so yeah so we had to have a hospital chaplain do the funeral where it turned out our senior pastor was actually one of the hospital chaplains we had to have their funeral um people who actually wanted Elders was the leader of that so so all these little bits you know our church friends cooked and cleaned for us for six weeks after the baby after we'd lost Mica uh our family paid for us to go to Australia for a month after the funeral so all those things kind of kept us going but I think it was then when we got back from Australia where Gavin had gone back to work and the support wasn't there as much I mean it was but people just not around you as much yeah that hit me and I became quite unwell um and I did and I think my it was my anger and confusion towards God was the thing that made me quite poorly for a bit of time um just as I was wrestling through those pictures and the whys and the yeah it's you just can't explain it and the hormones yeah yeah so so it's all going on isn't it really you've got the physical the emotional the spiritual the mental you've got all of that happening at the same time and so you then become quite unwell you so because of your anger and your infusion sort of you know in hindsight This was um maybe what you can put it down to and how's how's the husband at this point I think yeah it was difficult and this is the point where gav said that's it I'm done with my faith I'm done with god um because he just couldn't get his head around it so again that then pushes you you know into a place of like difficulty because it's like have we got back into then trying mode for another baby and then we've also got this in between like I'm going to church he's I'm wanting to deeper dive into God he's going in there you know so it's all of that sort of stuff and and don't get me wrong like gav was there for me he you know hugged me if I was crying and stuff but the point where I really wanted to be like can you pray for me he was just so angry with God he was just like no so you just kind of onto different places um and I remember getting to the point at the Easter so we'd lost Micah in the October and at the Easter I was so unwell and I was having that many panic attacks and different things like that I got really poorly uh that I remember gav just literally having to scoop me up and he took me to my mom's house and he just gave it to me gave me to her at the front door and he was just like I just don't know what to do with her and I had to stay at my mom's the next two weeks and I remember my mom literally all through the night I'd be waking up every half an hour because I was just having such a bad anxiety she'd be stroking my hair to get me to sleep but you know in that two weeks was when I would say I met God in the most deep and profound way and people talk about falling to the bottom of a pit and finding God there that is exactly where I found god um and I think that is the turning point for me of where I started to heal and push and move forward through that so what happened then in that time I I literally just I had nothing else because I was so poorly like I didn't want to watch Telly I hadn't got the attention so so I literally just pulled out my Bible and worship music and just sat reading my Bible talking to God telling him all my my worries my fears my my anger I think I just pray processed everything so much that I just got it all out I was writing stuff down but that is also when I began to write out the pages of the little fingers book because I knew that was part of my healing Journey that one day I had to have hope that one day I would get better and I would heal this and I knew that the reason that I could do that was by helping others with my story and that's that's the point where I started writing the book so just explain to those listening what the book is um that you started writing at this point so we um when I'd gone into the hospital to give birth to Micah and the only book or resource available to parents at the time that was like free or anything was was for Muslim parents so it was prayers to pray through when you'd lost a child and the Midwife who'd Kerman again a lady from church is the most wonderful lady and she's supported me for many years said to me Charlotte I think this is something you know where you could help others like this is a real job so you could bless others and so from there the idea came together where I just write a thought a day so it's almost like a really small you know it's not a big thick book or anything because you can't process that when you're in that it's literally just a thought a day where i'm just telling people about my journey and about kind of you know some of the things they'll face and we actually compiled that together now it's the little fingers book and we send that out free of charge to hospitals chaplains churches um so anyone can email in through the website and they're able to request them and we send boxes wow and so this is what your charity does the little things charity so what's the I mean while we're here what is that website and knew you were going to ask me that I think it's little fingers I'm just picking it on the internet today I'll have to get back to you and you can put it on the bottom I'll do that we'll put it in the show notes but uh I'll double check yeah yeah no I love the fact you don't even know your own website to my brain yeah yeah yeah brilliant brilliant so here you are in this two weeks thing you're pointing your heart out to God you start to heal you're journaling you're uh you start the little fingers book what those what happened then at the end of those two weeks yeah you said did you then go back home back to gav is that what happened then and how how what was his response to to the fact that you were a little bit different coming out than you were going in think through the whole journey so gav was away from God for about seven years in total um and so yeah it was I think everything every step of my journey he didn't always comment on but I knew was impacting him to see how I was reacting it reacting to all of this journey through my faith and I think that model to him kind of God um in action really but yeah I went back to back home I went back to work um and I had a phase return to work and got lots of support there um and actually I would say by the June July I was probably fine you know I was in I wasn't having the panic attacks or any of that anymore because God was really just transforming me um it was just like I came out the other end as a completely other person like a completely new person yeah so what was it then because I I can I I can imagine if you're listening to the show and you you're listening to what the story is um it's easy to go I get why you're angry with God you have this promise this happens and in theory this is something that God can stop at any point in time right he knew what was going to happen but he he for whatever reason he allowed to happen what happened um and so here you are you have your Christian faith and it feels like your question God is not with you at this point you know and this is all going on you're angry with them Gavin's angry with him so but if within a few months God is transforming you your heart is beginning to heal um you're writing a book what was it that you learned about God during this phase that help you process and deal with that anger and confusion towards God which was what was there in the in the beginning I think it is really I mean what we've talked about before is about not putting God in a box I had this this box in my head mentally of this is how my life will turn out I'm a bit of a control freak this is how you know all the relationships you know I'm going to get married I'm going to have you know God's gonna do this he's going to answer every prayer for me as soon as I pray he's like a Santa you know um and then life's going to turn out like this and what I had to and do was my control element but also the putting God in a box but also and and allowing God to to be God in my life like I don't think he'll it causes a lot of these things and yes he does like you say have the power to stop some of these things but sometimes we just have to trust and we might not get the answers and and be okay with that because he sees the bigger picture and and knowing that God is good and God is good at being good and God is good at being God like that was where I had to come to of just being okay always not knowing um that I think was the biggest turning point for me so on one end then you have this theology that God is good but on the other hand obviously you've got your experience in life and so the way you have dealt with that it sounds like Charlotte is you've gone uh I just I I have to trust that God is good and I don't know the answers in spite of what I've been through is that am I understanding that right yeah yeah yeah I think it's that it's always very open-handed and I think it's like a lot of things in life we're just never gonna find out the answers to some of these big questions and I think if we continually question uh go on the question to answer some of those questions it could lead us down some really funny and dark holes and dark paths and I think sometimes it's just that simple Trust of God isn't it yeah yeah yeah it is and what I find interesting in your story Charlotte is actually it sounds like you experience God you met god during the trauma during the difficult times during the hard times um and it was there God bought healing and restoration not necessarily understanding which I think is quite interesting um but he did bring healing and transformation and restoration during the dark times Sydney and um and that seems to be your story at this point am I am I getting this right yes that's right yeah so what was it like for and I just want to go back to the first five years because um you've been told you're not really going to get pregnant but you're trying for five years that's a long time to have that constant monthly disappointment and and face that how did you guys deal with that because I know for a lot of couples it can take a long time to to get pregnant and I'm curious how you dealt with that I mean it was hard but I think the great thing about gav is he naturally has big shoulders to to kind of walk me through that if that makes sense like when I'm like oh it's up again it's like it's okay and and gav has always been that sturdiness to my faith in that way that we're I've wobbled and and it's been really interesting so in those times he was very much but God promised us we're gonna have two kids but then obviously it switched the other way around after we lost Michael it was Miko come on God's prominence so I think it's that's marriage isn't it it's stepping up in an area to support the other person where they're sleeping and stuff and and he did that very much for me um and and we tried to enjoy life do a bit of traveling go to places we want it was hard and there were some months that were harder than others um and it is hard when your own friends and they're like oh we're pregnant and you're like you know but um it's you just I think you draw closer to it as a couple as well like a lot of humor helps us we're very you know we make jokes of things and yeah just that's what gets us through it's a very British thing to do isn't it we don't understand it let's make fun of it yeah that's going to help us what would you if you could go back in time to you know those early years of marriage um those those sort of five years what would you tell yourself what what advice do you think would have helped you um just because I know that there'll be people listening what that we should be going oh this sounds like familiar yeah I think if I could tell myself again like obviously now I have children which will come to later but Eve I got to the point where before we got pregnant with Noah um and again what comes out shortly I got to the point where I was like I'm okay if this doesn't happen because God is good and life is still good in spite of me wanting something cannot get in it um and I think that's a really hard place to come to because you want something so much but once you come to a real place of trust and the Bible talks so much about us trusting God that when you can really Just Surrender it all that's when I think it it God can take something take that and turn it into something good yeah that's fantastic so okay spoiler I mean you've you know spoiler alert you you kind of spoil the ending there and that's I mean it's amazing you know so uh you mentioned that you then get pregnant with Noah so what happens um you've gone back home you're getting healed up gavs walked away from God so bridge that gap between getting uh from that point to getting pregnant with no so it's another five years so in that five years we have um IVF um first round worked um which was amazing really excited but again I'm going to the doctor something's not right and the drugs they'd given me had given me something called ohss where your body just carries on over producing and over stimulated so that unfortunately caused a miscarriage um and I ended up having um a massive Hemorrhage after that so I ended up in the hospital for a week um and actually in a a I can't say uncanny I can't think of the word but um the the room I end up in for a week is actually the room that the charity two weeks later was about to fundraise for to do up at the hospital so we're about we literally had it we'd been planning for months a charity ball that we were going to raise up some money for the local hospital to update their miscarriage Suites and unfortunately I end up in there um so it gave me some insight into what those on his face so I ended up while I'm having some stuff going on a year later we have some more IVF and that failed and that was quite devastating at that point because it was just like okay we're not getting pregnant naturally ivf's not working does this now mean adoption it's all those questions of I actually found it harder I mean I say this I don't know um to know that God had promised me kids because God's promised me kids but I don't know how they're coming and my natural reaction is well what do I need to do to make that happen you know do I need to stop some children you know so all that kind of stuff was really what I was wrestling with and yeah and then another two years later before I quit my job as a teacher and um and a consultant um doing some stuff and moderating for the local Authority I went to work for my friend and found out I was pregnant naturally within six weeks yeah and but again I think literally about two or three months before that I'd come to a point where I was like God I trust you whatever happens so and then Noah's pregnancy was a bit you know scary at times I have to inject myself every day because they found out I'd got all these different medical conditions during this interim time um and a lot of dangerous medical conditions for pregnancy um but yeah Noah was born naturally conceived naturally um and he's he was five last week so it's been an absolute job fantastic well happy birthday Noah yeah for last week um so there's a the very recurring number of five coming up in this conversation I don't know so um I will come back to that in just a second but let's close off the story because you have two children we've mentioned this in the bio we did the little spoiler alert what so tell us about child number two which I'm assuming is Grace yeah well yes it is so it's Milo Grace hyphened and so I always had backup I don't know why and when I um so Micah was one of my backup names and Myla was one of my backup names I was like even if we get a dog I like these names uh and then when I actually looked at what Mila means and it means gracious and God had promised us a double portion of Grace So Myla Grace means gracious Grace so she's our double portion of Grace so it felt fitting to call her that um so yes amyla was born um 16 months ago um she was probably too much of a measurement first try after all those years she was wow um so uh yeah it God has been absolutely amazing like just blown us away with his faithfulness and semi-spoiler alert this summer so August this summer will be 20 years from when God gave us that picture well gave me the picture and Milo obviously is now walking so I really believe there will be a point this summer where I will it makes me well up to say thinking of it I will see that picture in real life yeah there's just going to be that moment isn't there and you're gonna go that's it yeah and it's just what would that be yeah that'd be the most precious thing uh and it'll be one of those things that you'll never forget and um but so well it's great to hear uh you know Miley Grace and Noah are now on the scene and this is where I started to hear your story was because you went on maternity leave when we were chatting um and you were like oh I'm going to wear maternity oh congratulations then you're like yeah you don't even know the half of it Matthew I don't uh there's a whole lot of this story so in all of this uh Charlotte you're there are ups and there are downs and there seems to be a lot more downs and UPS I'm not gonna lie on the on the getting pregnancy front I don't know about the rest of life where where does Gavin's story take a u-turn yeah so we um it was uh working for a friend so this was just before covid so in the February before covid uh he'd been working for a friend and that job hadn't kind of worked out as they both discussed it to to the point where his friend had said okay I think so I think this was like the Wednesday I think we'll finish your job from Friday so it was nothing gathered done it just wasn't the role that they both had thought it was going to be so at that point Gavin was like I have no job to do um at the same time I'd left one of my jobs to go and work for another job and it was an amazing job on paper like incredible salary the role I was doing like even the recruiter for it was like we've had over 200 people apply for this and he wouldn't even put any of them in front of the video and he's had you and he's employed you and I got there and something just did not feel right in my heart and eventually God after six weeks was just like you you need to leave I've given you exactly what you wanted but this isn't where I want you and I just couldn't get that niggle out of my heart and I have never done anything like this but I said together I think I've got to quit my job um so I'd quit my job in the December and bless the guy like I'd gotten so well with him he said look I'll give you a month's Garden leave which is amazing and my brothers were over from Australia so we had a great Christmas but come January we're both all of a sudden without a job on the Monday and it was like what do we do we've got a young child how do we keep a roof above our head and on that same night gav had been having mentoring off a guy um that we were doing some property investment with and he came around and he just said I'm not going to talk to you about properties surf gav I think it's time and you know what God's telling you to do and he went home and gav just went God I need you and he just broke down and just came back to the Lord so it was incredible it was honestly it was so heartwarming and many years of prayer no kidding no yeah so what was it like I mean you've talked a little bit about what it was like dealing with the grief um and coming to that place of surrender there is another element of this in the sense that in this image that you have not only have you got two kids I'm assuming your head you've got a Christian husband yes um and so not only the two kids seemingly not happening the husband who's a great guy is also there's a big part of that picture that's not quite in Focus maybe as you you thought it was going to be what was it like seeing your husband walk away from gods um for those seven years I how did how did that impact you I'm really curious it was hard it was really hard especially initially um at first he was like I don't want to go to church I don't want you to go and you know you don't need God uh at first he was like I just think you should forget it and stuff but the catch is he actually also works as a church as the site manager so he was still in church stuff but he was very like all and the politics is putting me off and all that kind of stuff but then I remember after about two or three it was probably about three years of him still working there one of the one of the girls that I knew really well there she was like you know we started listening to worship music again I think for him it was a slow gradual unfolding but it was hard and again like you say it's hard when your whole pictures come unraveled of kids husband you know even the fear of if he completely walks away from God once if he walks away from me too you know it's that um but I just had to keep trusting and honestly my prayer life went to such a an amazing level that I just had to learn to just take everything to God and surrender it to him how was it um how did she practically deal with this on a day-to-day basis because you're not the own you know there are people listening to the the show who will have a unbelieving spouse and it's you know there's a small portion in scripture that talks about this but um which is which is great and wonderful obviously but on a day-to-day practical level how did you put that into practice what what was life looking like for you it did you have a deliberate strategy in your head if I can use phrases like that um or was it just a case of I'm not really going to think about this until it's a I'll pray about it but I'm not going to try and think about it type of thing I think it's like any kind of evangelism strategy just try not to shove it down the throat especially when you're at home with them all the time like I think at first I was trying to intentionally make too many you know Gods doing this I've got but in the end it was just if a natural thing came out I'd say it you know oh it's great today and this happened you know but I didn't force anything and I'm sure there's a script in the Bible that talks about how a husband can come to the Lord through the witness of his wife or something yeah yeah yeah and that that encouragement that that Faith unravel um or not unravel sorry build up and grow I think definitely encouraged him um especially because I got stronger and stronger in the fact that I know we are having these children so I the journey went the opposite way he was very we're having these children and then he's petered off and mine became stronger as the years went on of my conviction of no but God has promised us two children and we're having them yeah so yeah it's interesting listening to your story and as you as you're talking short I'm reminded of the story that I read um about Polly Wigglesworth who was Smith wigglesworth's wife um and Smith Wigglesworth for those that don't know was around in the early part of the 1900s wasn't he he was a Bradford Liverpool guy and he I mean crazy Miracles sort of seemed to follow him and there's lots of insane stories uh but his journey with God was quite complex and at one point um I can't remember why but he decided to walk away from God something had obviously happened and he'd walked away from God and he said to Polly he said you're not going to church I know enough to know the Bible says I'm the head of this house and you're going to say you're not going to church and Paulie just went no Smith I am going to church and so she goes to church and uh Smith is so angry with his wife and with God that he locks her out of the house and if I I I just I'm thinking at this point if that was my wife there would be all kind I would be in all kinds of trouble from about 40 different people if I ever did this uh but he locks Polly out of the house right and what was interesting was the next day he came stairs and he he unlocked the door forgetting about the fact that he'd locked his wife out and his wife had fallen asleep on the doorstep leaned up against the door and as the door opened she cut she falls into the kitchen um which obviously wakes her up what do you say is the wife at this point there are very Choice phrases which may have come out of most people's mouths but Polly Wigglesworth does this thing where she just she gets up off the floor she kisses her husband on the cheek says good morning to him and fixes his favorite breakfast and the way that Smith Wigglesworth told the story was he was so convicted about how his wife acted and behaved um that he inevitably came back to got him so he he's he he said everything I am under God I owe to my dear wife um which I just think is a remarkable story and I I think there there are there are things that you know it's the Unseen actions which have the biggest impact on our kids on our spouses I can imagine actually that that wasn't actually just that moment either I can imagine if he unpicked it there were probably more little moments yeah I'm sure they were that led up to that moment it's a bit like they say Paul and when he had his conversion actually there was probably a lot more moments along the way before he had this big you know glaring connection yeah there had been lots of things yeah yeah I have no doubt I have no doubt but it's an interesting wasn't it so throughout all this trauma and the miscarriage and the failed IVF and the grief you're growing stronger and stronger in your faith that you are going to have two children which seems a bit of a contradiction in terms isn't it it feels like sort of Polar Opposites it's getting worse so therefore my faith is going to get stronger did you ever think about it in those terms or was it just actually no this is what I'm I'm the more this happens the more I'm getting convinced we're on the right track I mean don't get me wrong there were still months where I was like oh this isn't gonna happen I'm mad you know but I think it was just the more I think the Bible talks about having set in your face like Flint is it Flint yeah I'm getting my words murdered up today um yep that's what I I just put to my head was that's what I need to do I need to be so fixed on the truth of God and what is honest but not so fixed that I have to make it happen yeah but just like right God this is something I know like I'm parking to the side and saying I trust you with it while I focus on this stuff and while I got busier with the stuff that was other than that it built me up it gave me hope it restored my soul well God could deal with the other stuff we gave with the future with you know all of that kind of stuff so yeah there were still days but I definitely think it's one of those we just got to fix your gaze ahead on the on the prize set ahead of us because you know as much as I could have been thought about that who knows that I could have dropped down dead in the meantime you know so we can get so consumed by the one thing that we take our eyes off everything else in the bigger picture yeah that's powerful that's super powerful who um one of the stories that I I I love in scripture is where Mary gets pregnant and she she clears off and hangs out with Elizabeth for three months um you know and Elizabeth encourages Mary um who's your Elizabeth in all of this who's who is the the encourager a few but for different reasons or ways like my mom's been there as a generic support through all of it my mum and dad eventually came to Faith as well um but then we had Sue who was the Midwife who delivered my cat she has been there every step of the way particularly she came and delivered Noah well as part of the delivery for Noah as well um and was also on the phone doing my photo of my delivery for Mila as well so um yeah there's a number of women that I just I would thank but and I think it's it's that building an army isn't it you want a group of friends and people around you that are the ones that would you know take you to the roof of a building rip it apart and lower you down before Jesus and that's what you need sometimes it's just a group of stretch of Errors who you can go to for different things yeah I'm not somebody who has one person I have several usually got you you're greedy you've got more than one you've got like a group but I like that analogy I love that uh you need a set of people who will rip the roof off and lower you down if just explain what you mean by that Charlotte for people that might not be familiar with that story from from the gospel yeah so there's that great story in the Bible where um it talks about the paralytic man and um is taken uh by his friends and they can't get close enough to Jesus who's obviously they know he's doing Miracles so they take him up onto the roof and they rip the roof open and they lower him down so that Jesus can obviously heal him um and tell him to take his mat and get up and walk which is amazing so but it's the it's the Persistence of his friends that get him there you know yeah and and it's interesting when you get those kind of friends because I I like you I have those I have a group of friends like that who I feel would rip off roofs for me if they if they deemed it important um and I I'm so grateful for those friends and for that friendship it's quite a remarkable thing um and I'm very intentional in making sure that I I keep up with those you know those friends um which is which is super important Charlotte listen I am aware of time I'm aware that we are uh we're rightfully running out of it um if people I mean I I can't ask you to tell me what the website is for your charity because you just don't know uh but we will put that in the show notes um but if people want to reach out to you if they want to connect with you if they want to find out more what's the best way to do that yeah so there's the contact form on the website so they can just reach in there um we've also got the ability on there where if they do want to send a copy of the book to somebody they can fill in their form and then we just post it out to them free of charge or um if it's like a church or an organization that won a handful of those books again we can post those out to people again free of charge we've said them to so many places and sometimes people ask for like boxes of them that they've got available to hand out sometimes it's just blessing a friend who's just gone through a miscarriage or a loss of a child um so it's just a really helpful resource to send out so yeah once once I get to the website uh you can contact us and we'll put it here we'll put it in the show notes um Charlotte listen one final word uh from you to you know you've come through a lot and I I see resilience and I see faith and I see uh just an amazing person if honest with you I just love hearing your story in in a good way you know in the sense that obviously God's with you and um your outlook on life is so refreshing and and wonderful and beautiful just a final word from you maybe people listening to the show I've been touched a little bit by what you're saying uh just let's send on a note of encouragement yeah I think I think for the person who's still trying for a baby trust God and you know be led by him and his Holy Spirit and and you know whatever that looks like God is still good for the person who's lost a child and allow God to take you through that healing um you know he he can bring hope and and a life again once to your life um and they call them rainbows uh so Noah are our rainbow babies and to somebody who's maybe struggling with a spouse or a a family member who's far away from God um just keep praying prayer does amazing things so God is good yeah fantastic it's true and I I I would only the only thing I would add is mix that with a little bit of patience because sometimes it won't happen tomorrow um yeah uh but you know if we're in there for the Long Haul it's amazing what prayer persistent prayer does uh over many years um and trusting good Charlotte it has been wonderful it has been awesome and lovely to talk to you thanks for being so amazing and such a legend and it's great to have been doing stuff with you um and great to get to know you and I'll bless you and your family and phenomenal story and and thank God for you guys thanks for having him there and just like that we've reached the end of another fascinating conversation remember to check out crowd online church at www.crowd.church don't forget to subscribe to what's the story on your favorite podcast app we've got a treasure Trove of inspiring stories coming your way and we'd hate for you to miss any of them what's the stories of production of crowd online Church our Fantastic Team including Anna Kettle Matt Edmondson Tanya hutzelak and myself south of pain and work behind the scenes to bring these stories to life our theme song is a creative work of Josh Edmondson if you're interested in the transcript or show notes head over to our website what's the storypodcast.com and while you're there sign up for a free newsletter to get all the goodness delivered straight to your inbox that's all from us this week thank you so much for tuning in and we'll catch you in the next episode bye for now