When You Feel Like You Don't Belong

Matt: Welcome to Crowd Church. Great to have you with us here on this beautiful day all the way from the UK. My name is Matt Edmundson. If you've not been here before, very warm, warm welcome to you. We are broadcasting live from Liverpool, England. I don't— doesn't really make any difference where it's from, really, does it? But that's where we are broadcasting live from. So Sure, it's great to have you. Where's that coming from? Oh, there we go. Once is enough, uh, to, for Matt's voice. Just trying to figure out where the, where the sound is coming from. Uh, but yeah, very warm welcome to you. Great to have you with us. Make sure you're in the comments. Say, how's it? Um, and if you would like, we now have this thing called Live Lounge. Uh, you can go to Live Lounge, the web URL I'll put in the comments actually. Um, go.crowd.church/livelounge. Uh, if you go there, um, you can watch the live stream in a Zoom room, uh, with some other folks. I can see Dan's in there. Hey, Dan. Uh, I can see Ros is in there, although I can't see Ros. I can just see Ros's picture. But anyway, you can go join people in the Zoom room. You'll see and hear the live stream, but you get to interact with all kinds of wonderful people. Uh, Alicia's in the YouTube comments. Hey, Alicia, how you doing? Um, let me, let me do this while I remember. In fact, while I say— well, I put the, the link for Live Lounge in there. Say hello to Sharon. Sharon, how you doing?

Sharon: Hi everybody, I am co-hosting with Matt tonight, and we've got the fabulous Mike who's going to be speaking to us.

Matt: Uh, and here's Mike.

Mike: Yeah, hi, good to be here. Yeah, I'm going to be talking today, I'm going to be talking about Insiders and outsiders, um, and what Jesus had to say, or more, more accurately, how he interacted with those insiders and outsiders. And so, yeah, looking forward to sharing that with you today.

Matt: Fantastic. So insiders and outs. It's a little bit dark in the studio. I'm gonna go turn those lights up. That's what I'm gonna do in a minute. Uh, but yes, so we've got that going on. Um, Katharine's in the car. Hello, Katharine, how you doing? I've put the link to Live Lounge in the comments if you'd like to go and join in Live Lounge. You'd be very, very welcome. Um, but yeah, I think— have I missed anything in terms of the notices?

Sharon: Well, just one thing. So last week I spoke and I said that my talk was the first part of the more difficult teachings of Jesus, and that, that was true. But Mike's today is actually not part of that series because basically Come on, Sherry, go! We're doing really well with that. Really slick as usual. Um, yes, but I basically, I swapped the day I was talking, so it's slightly out of sync. So Mike's is not part of the more challenging teachings of Jesus, it's kind of backtracking a little bit, and then I think we're back to the more challenging, uh, parts of Jesus' teaching. Yeah. So, uh, hopefully Matt's finished fiddling with all the different lights and technical things now.

Matt: Oh well, you know, I like to fiddle, that's the thing. There we go, it's a bit brighter here now. Sorry, I forgot I was going to block the camera.

Sharon: Lovely view of your back there.

Matt: Yeah, I was like, I tell you what, I'll change the lights while you're talking and then no one noticed.

Sharon: No, no one noticed, you're fine.

Matt: Oh well, very sorry, ladies and gentlemen, very sorry. Uh, Carter, hi, how you doing? It's in the comments. I just can't believe I did that. Anyway, um, this is what it's like when you try and do church online. There's always tech stuff going on when we're trying to do all these different things. So, uh, like I say, make sure you say hi in the YouTube comments if you're on YouTube. If you're in Live Lounge or want to go join Live Lounge I see Rach is in there now. You can do that, the link is in the YouTube comments, we've put that in there, go.crowd.church/livelounge. You'll need a Zoom thing to get in there because it's hosted on a Zoom room, but Dan's in there, go and say hello to Dan, otherwise it'll just be really lonely and we don't want that. So inside and outside, yeah, over to you, Mike.

Mike: Over to me. Fantastic. Well, it is great to be here. And so, yeah, I am talking about insiders and outsiders today, and you can't have one without the other. And you can't have insiders unless there are people on the outside, and you can't have outsiders unless you've got people on the inside who believe they're on the inside. And so we're just going to look at that, and that's something that I want you to be thinking about. as I go through this. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to go through 3 stories from the Bible, 1 from the Old Testament, 2 from the New, that look at how God interacts with insiders and outsiders. But before I start that, I just wanted to tell you a couple of situations where I have felt like an outsider. Now I understand that I'm talking to you, I am a middle-class white man, So most of the time I feel pretty privileged and as though I am on the inside. But there were some occasions where I have felt like I just don't quite fit in. So one of those times was I went along to a Jehovah's Witness church and I got invited along and I went along there and I turned up. And what I noticed straight away was that I was dressed very differently. to all the rest of the people. So all the rest of the men were all in suits and I wasn't. I was, I was dressed a little bit like this. And so straight away, I'm, I'm— for most of the time, although people were very friendly, I felt like an outsider. I felt like I just did not quite fit in, um, and it didn't feel nice. Um, another time where I felt like a bit— where I definitely didn't fit in was at a school disco. So, um, I went to an all-boys school and we'd often do discos with the local, uh, 2 local, um, all-girls schools. And we do these discos and I was— must have been about 12, 13, 14, something like that. And I was very, very nervous, um, because there was a dance floor and the dance floor scared me. And so I'd stand around the outside trying to look as cool as possible and, um, And then at the end of the disco, there'd be like a slow song would come on, and, and, uh, the boys and girls would sort of couple up and, um, and, you know, put their hands around each other's waist, and they'd do like a slow dance. We call it a slowie. Anyway, uh, this— I asked this girl if she wanted to do a slowie with me, and so we went on to the, the dance floor. Heart was absolutely pounding. And I was so nervous, probably sweating, and we started doing this, this slowie. Well, after about a minute, she just kind of pushed me away and went, I've never done a slowie that fast before. And I think I was just like so nervous that I was just like rocking backwards and forwards like this. And then she just walked off and asked somebody else, and I was left on the dance floor just thinking, dude, I don't fit in here. I, I don't have what it takes to look like I belong on this dance floor. And so I left, and I don't think I went to another disco, um, at that place again. And so I felt like I didn't quite belong. Um, and you may have situations yourself where you have been, um, and they're just, you know, some sort of fun examples, but this is a serious topic, isn't it? Because When you feel like you don't belong, when you feel like you don't fit in, or when you feel like you're being left out or excluded, it can feel really tough, really, really tough. And right from the very beginning, I just want you to know that nobody is excluded from God's love. It says at the end of Romans 8 that there's nothing that can separate us. So where you go into situations and you feel like you are separated, that you don't quite fit in. I want you to know that everybody is included when it comes to the love of God that is found in Jesus Christ. So I just want to begin by looking at one story which is from John chapter 20, it's verse 1 to 18, and this story is about Jesus When, excuse me, when he died, he was in the tomb, and then 3 days later he rose again. And one of the first people on the scene was a lady called Mary Magdalene. Now, this lady was an outsider. She was an outsider because back then, um, women had a lower social standing to men. But also, Mary Magdalene was somebody who Jesus had healed from demon possession. She had 7 demons inside of her, the Bible records, and Jesus had healed her, and she had from that moment become a very close apprentice or follower of Jesus. Interestingly, she is, according to John, the first person that Jesus appears to once he is resurrected. She is the first eyewitness, and therefore she is the first person to say Jesus is alive. Other gospels include other Marys. For example, there's 2 other Marys in other gospel accounts that are talked about who are there at times. But what's just really interesting is that the Creator of the universe, in his grace, in his love, in his foreknowledge, decided that he was going to include in this story, in this most important part of the story. He was going to elevate this lady, um, who for most of her life will have felt like she was on the outside. She was given the privilege of meeting the risen Savior first and being the first person to declare that Jesus was risen. Now, as a little aside, this is also really good evidence for those of you who have a faith, or even if you don't have a faith, this is good evidence that the Gospels are true. Because if you were trying to write an account of Jesus rising from the dead, you wouldn't have used women as the first eyewitnesses. Josephus, who wrote around the time of Jesus, said And it's documented. This isn't a Christian document, but this is a secular document. And he wrote that women, their evidence wasn't even used in court at that time because they weren't seen as reliable witnesses. And yet the Gospel of John, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John recounts that they were the first people who were, who were given the opportunity to talk about the resurrected Jesus. Jesus included These people, and he exalted them. He promoted them to these positions. If we go back a fair few years to the book of Ruth, some of you will know the story and some of you won't. I just want to give you a brief account of this story. So in the Book of Ruth, you have this lady Naomi, and she has 2 sons, and, um, they are both married, and she has a husband. Her husband dies, her 2 sons die, and one of her, um, daughters-in-law leaves. Ruth, the, the, the other daughter-in-law, decides that she is going to leave So Naomi decides that she's going to leave, and Ruth, her only daughter-in-law, decides that she's going to go with Naomi and she's going to follow her. Ruth, who was a Moabite from Moab, she decides to leave Moab, leave her people, and follow Naomi. Now Naomi was a poor widow, so as Ruth makes this big sacrifice to leave her people, to leave her gods, to leave her um, way of living and to follow Naomi. She is following a lady who she knows she's going to be looking after, and there is very, very little chance that she will get anything out of this. So she follows Naomi, and when they get to the place that they're traveling to, she then makes another big sacrifice. She goes out into the fields, which would have been a very dangerous place for women at that time, And she goes to try and find food behind the harvest. As the men were pulling up the grain, she was going behind trying to find some food for her and Naomi. Back then, that was a very, very dangerous place for a single young woman to be, but she had to do it in order to find food. And so she goes and she makes this sacrifice to try and find food for 2 of them. Later on in the story, and you can read about this story in Ruth, it is a fantastic story and I would encourage you to do that. She later marries a guy called Boaz. In marrying Boaz, so the point I'm trying to make is that as Ruth makes these sacrifices in order to help a poor widow. She ends up marrying Boaz, and as a result of that, Boaz's mum, who is Rahab, a prostitute, and Boaz are brought into the lineage of Jesus. So when you read in Matthew, it has the whole lineage of Adam all the way through David all the way to Jesus, his whole family tree. And what you will read in there is that Rahab and Boaz and Ruth are all included in that family line. Rahab was a prostitute, and she gets included in that family lineage along with Boaz and Ruth because of the sacrifices that Ruth made. These people, these outsiders, were brought into the family and the lineage of Jesus, the Creator and Saviour of the world. The final story is found in Matthew 8:1-4. This is where Jesus himself is around and he meets a leper. And this leper was definitely an outsider, so he was not allowed to mix with society because of the disease that he had. If he was to touch anybody, they would be seen as ceremonially unclean. They wouldn't be able to participate in all of the normal rhythms of life in that society. He would have had to stay away. Some of the time he would have had to have a bell to warn people that he was coming. And Jesus sees this leper, this outcast, this person who by law had to remain outside of the city walls, had to remain away from society, and Jesus's reaction is to move towards him. And to reach out and to touch this leper and to heal him. God seems to have a beeline for outsiders, a beeline for them, and he seems to want to gather and bring them into his family. The people who he was most angry with were the religious hierarchy of the day, those that created this system where there was insiders and outsiders. And I just want us to, first of all, just reflect on what God is like. God is not a God of the insiders and outsiders. He is an inclusive God who loves each And every single one of you, and that is great. That is a great thing for us to reflect on. But I want us to go a little bit further, and I want us to have a think about so how does this affect me? I was in a group a while back, and it was a very eclectic mix, shall we say, of individuals, and. Um, some of those individuals came from very, very difficult, very, very difficult backgrounds. Um, they'd had a very, very different life to me, and I found it really difficult in the group. I found myself— I'm not proud of this, but I found myself at times, um, and, and this was, this was a group where we were introducing people to to Jesus and introducing people to, you know, the meaning of life and getting to ask questions and stuff like that. But I found myself just looking at these people and thinking, your life is so different to mine. You are so different to me. And it was jarring and it was, it was difficult. And what I found, or what I thought as I came away from that, is that If as a Christian, I want people to be able to come into my— the church that I go to, if I want people to join in with a group maybe that I've created to try and introduce people to Jesus, then in order for me to help create an environment where they can feel like they belong, the work is not about positioning chairs in the right place. or making sure the food is right, or making sure that we've got banners up. The work actually has to start in me. The work has to start in me, and I have to remember that at one point I was an outsider, and it was when I was an outsider that Jesus looked down and loved me. And so as we reflect and as we think about how God has included and worked to include and to demonstrate his love to everybody who is, who, who is on the outside. My hope is that by thinking about those things, that it will slowly change my heart so that I am better able to be more welcoming in an, in an authentic way. Um, but, you know, and I'm never going to be perfect at that, and I don't think Any of us are, but but by reflecting on Jesus, we can be transformed. And that is my hope. That is my hope that we can do that. So my my thoughts as I finish are this: like how um how can you be more welcoming? Um what is it? Um how do you feel? How do you react? When you see somebody who is very different to you, somebody from a different social background, with a different life experience, it might just be that they are older or younger than you. How are you going to be Jesus to them? How are you going to be the welcoming, loving, gracious person that God Um, intends to help you, um, to be. So yeah, they are my thoughts, um, and yeah, that is it.

Matt: That's a good start, Mike.

Mike: Thanks.

Matt: It's not it, so I just want to point that out when you say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not it. No, no, it's a good start. It is a good start. Thanks, Mike.

Mike: That's all right.

Matt: Always enjoy hearing you talk, man, and Great topic to get. Yeah, you've got Sonia to thank for that, by the way. Um, but it is— I, I think it's one of the most extraordinary topics in, in scripture, isn't it? The sort of the inclusive inclusivity. It's not an easy word to say. It's not inclusivity of it, um, of the gospel of Christ, of, you know, the whole thing. I mean, thank God, otherwise where would I be, right?

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: Um, what stood out to you, babe? Sorry, for those that don't know, on Crowd, let me just explain. For those that don't know, Sharon next to me is my wife, so I don't just call everybody babe. I just realized.

Sharon: I hope not anyway.

Matt: I can hear it all in my head, so I'm like, yeah, I should probably explain. If you don't know, Sharon's my wife, and so I'm okay. Babe, over to you.

Sharon: Okay. Oh, so many thoughts. I think even just when you started and you were giving stories about how you felt, um, like you didn't belong, I just wonder how many people have felt like that at some point in their life. Part of me is like, is there anyone who's not felt like that? And I know that some people have that to more degrees than others. Yeah, but yeah, because it's like I, as a child, I always felt that just constantly, like I don't fit in. I don't really know how life works. I don't get it. And I just always felt like that. So yeah. Did you feel like that, babe?

Matt: I can see where this is going.

Mike: Yes.

Matt: I can see where this is always going. Uh, did I feel like an outsider?

Sharon: You're gonna just prove me wrong now and say, no, I didn't at all.

Matt: No, I did. I, I think I, I— it's interesting, isn't it? Because I— again, what did you feel outside of? Do you know what I mean?

Sharon: I think friendship groups. Yeah. Um, I think I've— I think for me it came from, like I've mentioned before in a talk with my mum's permission, um, that— so my mum had an eating disorder And I think just some of the mentality of that just seeped into me. And so I just felt like I didn't really understand friendships, like everybody else is part of the group. And even if I was part of a group that I was just hanging on, like they were tolerating me rather than actually wanted me, which probably wasn't true. But that's just how I always felt. And I, and I felt like other people understood life and how to do life. And I was clueless. Like, it's like, how do you guys know how to do— how to do this friendship thing? How do you know to do, you know, this, that, and the other? Just didn't get it.

Matt: It's an interesting one. Yeah, I, I would say when I was growing up, I, I mean, I was, I was definitely bullied, but, um, at least for a season, and until my mum shipped me off to judo and made me learn how to fight. But that's another story. I can, though, resonate with the, uh, dance floor story, which is why I was laughing.

Sharon: Oh, right.

Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt: Just the whole, uh, 9— I don't know what decade you grew up in, Mike, but I— it was the '80s for me. And in the whole 1980s disco, just, um, you know, oh, just walking up to a girl. It's funny how dating was back then. It's not like now where you've got Snapchat and you can't respond straight away, all the rules they've got, whereas we're just like Fancy dance. I love the slowie name as well.

Sharon: Yeah, it's very Scouse.

Matt: It's very Scouse.

Sharon: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Do you fancy— do you fancy a slowie? That would probably have meant something else where I grew up, but that's okay. And so I, I totally resonate with that and just the amount of rejection. Yeah, just on the dance floor. And rejection obviously is very closely tied into not Yeah, yeah. Part of belonging.

Mike: Yeah.

Sharon: So I think there are lots of different reasons why we don't feel like we belong, don't we? Like, it could maybe be you're from a different ethnicity to what the majority is. Maybe you're autistic or you've got some sort of illness, either very obvious or invisible. Could be to do with your family background. There are just so many things that can make us feel like we don't fit and like we're on the edge and we don't deserve Yeah, whatever, we don't deserve God's love. Yeah, that he's not going to want us. Yeah. So that was my first thought, just wondering. So I don't know if anyone's put anything in the comments on—

Matt: shall we have a look? Um, so Ellis has put here, great topic. As someone who feels like an outsider in literally every aspect of my life, it's always interesting to me when the Bible speaks of putting the lonely in families.

Sharon: Yeah, it's a great— that's a great verse, isn't it?

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Um, Alicia said, positioning our hearts to include others certainly involves a lot more than positioning chairs. 100%. That's a good phrase. Yeah, yeah. Um, Talita says, uh, it sure feels welcoming here. Thank you, everyone. Um, I caught myself thinking before the service of the sheer power of come as you are when it comes to Jesus because in a way, when we feel broken, we don't feel welcome. So some interesting comments.

Sharon: Yeah, yeah, that's good. Whereas I think, um, the people around Jesus picked up on that, didn't they? Because he hung around with the broken, the people that other people looked down on. Yeah. And his answer to that was, I didn't come for the, the healthy, I came for the sick. So yeah, yeah, which actually is all of us, but some of us I think recognize that More than others.

Matt: Yeah.

Sharon: If you are in that place of being an outcast, maybe you feel that more. Um, yeah.

Matt: There is an elephant in the room though.

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: Um, that it is probably worth— you're scratching your head now. What's the elephant? I'm desperately trying to think what it is. Um, in the sense that, um, Welcome versus endorsement, right? And this is a really interesting, I think, topic when it comes to the Christian faith.

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: Because I think, uh, the church has come across quite often as not being welcoming because it is not endorsed, right? You do not endorse my lifestyle, therefore you are not welcoming. Uh, and what we see with Jesus actually is he manages this tension of welcoming but not endorsing, but not really caring about that in the first instance.

Sharon: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah.

Matt: Um, it's like, well, let's deal with this, which is getting to know me, and then we can deal with the rest of the stuff. Um, and so, yeah, I think it's worth pointing that out because we talk a lot about the inclusivity of the Gospels of Christ, you know, the, the whole thing that you do come— like Talia says, you come as you are. You come broken.

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: And you don't have to come whole. In fact, if you're waiting for that, you never make it.

Mike: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Um, but this— but we have to tread carefully, I think, around this topic of endorsement.

Sharon: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah.

Matt: When saying to people, come as you are.

Sharon: Yeah. I think we're all included, aren't we? Like, the invitation is for everybody, so everyone is included in that. And also, we are all included in the invitation to repent. And so the things in our life that are not pleasing to God, to actually— he's inviting us to go, you know, you need to leave those behind. You need to leave that sin. You need to leave that part of your lifestyle.

Matt: Yeah, it's for all.

Sharon: Again, very inclusive. That's for all of us as well. Yeah, yeah.

Mike: I know, um, uh, someone much wiser than me said that God loves us just as we are, but he loves us so much he's not prepared to leave us that way. And I think, you know, I, I, I've said on this podcast before lots of times, but, you know, in, in Romans it is, it is very, very clear— and not just Romans, but lots of other places— that God is changing every single one of us into the likeness of Jesus. And, and for all of us, we've got to reconcile that God is changing me. He's changing me into something that reflects his glory better. And so does he accept me? Absolutely.

Sharon: Yeah.

Mike: Wholeheartedly. But from the day I accept him, he is changing me into, you know, glory after glory after glory after glory. And, you know, so that's not— that's not saying that that, that this person or this person is, is better or worse than another person. We are all accepted, but we are all being called to change.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: Um, but, but it, you know, it is a really good point.

Matt: Yeah.

Sharon: I thought you were going to talk about a different elephant, so maybe there's 2. Oh, maybe there's a herd. Yeah.

Matt: We've got a herd of elephants tonight. I love this. What's the second elephant?

Sharon: The one I was thinking of is that obviously Jesus, like, does invite all of us into this relationship with him, and he invites all of us to repent and to be changed into the glory that you've talked about, Mike. And the church is meant to be somewhere where everybody is welcomed, no matter how many broken. But actually, church has often been actually a very painful place for people to go and has actually contributed to people being broken. Yeah. So it—

Mike: Yeah.

Sharon: It's like this theory and like God's heart is incredible. But as a church, we've not— as a global church, we've not always been great at the outworking. And it does make me think, oh, I wonder who I've missed it with. Do you know what I mean? Who— the people that have slipped through the cracks that Yeah, that I've— if that's you and you're out there listening, please let me know. Yeah, yeah, it's totally unintentional. Yeah.

Mike: And, you know, I, I, I don't— I was, um, I, I think you're just dead right. I think, you know, we are, we are being changed and we are not there yet. And so as people, as a, as a bride, as a community, we are trying to do our best and, you know, and getting it wrong and needing to, to, to be open and honest about that. But, uh, and I think in order for us to be more welcoming and to prevent people from, um, being hurt and falling through that net, um, one of the things is, is to make sure that I'm getting to the point. In social media, we try to put our best face on.

Sharon: Yeah.

Mike: And we try to demonstrate to the world our best face. And that's no different a lot of the time for me when I'm in church. I am wanting to put my best face on. I wanted to demonstrate that I am a good Christian. But what happens then when I do that, and you do that, Matt, and you do that, and we all do that, is that anybody who is broken, who is outside, who comes in, all they see are these absolutely perfect people.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: And they just— well, I don't fit in there.

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: And, and, and so they leave. And so the challenge is for us to, to, to wear our, our scars and our bruises and our weaknesses, um, in— and to talk about them as, as much as we talk about our successes. And that's not to say, you know, when things are going well that you don't praise God for that, and you don't talk about that. But, you know, people who aren't Christians who are broken in the same way that we are broken are not going to find a place that they feel that they can fit into if all we're doing is showing our best face.

Matt: Yeah.

Sharon: And that has its own challenge as well. Um, totally agree with that. But as well, it's like, it is because Part of me is like, but there are some things that are appropriate to share widely, and there are some things that are appropriate just to keep within a small group. So I think we need a lot of wisdom with that as well, like not, not oversharing to the point actually it's going to be detrimental. Yeah, but sharing enough so that people know, oh, actually they do have their struggles too.

Mike: Yeah, I was talking about, um, I was talking with my daughter this afternoon about, um, just ratios and how, like, even if a big church is a welcoming church, someone who comes from outside is still a minority, even in a very welcoming church. But if we make the churches smaller and we have welcoming small groups, then that, you know, it's common sense, isn't it? But, but that then becomes a much more accessible place where somebody can find a place to belong. find, um, belonging than, than in a big sort of Sunday megachurch super service kind of thing. I mean, I suppose it's a little bit easier to hide, but, but it's also— I don't know.

Sharon: I don't know.

Mike: You know, I'm talking from the point of view of somebody who's grown up in church.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: So, you know, I've been in church all my life. You know, I'm, I'm kind of guessing really what it feels like to be to be an outsider and to walk into, to walk into a big church.

Matt: Whereas I think, I mean, this is one of the reasons we, we, I enjoy Crowd so much is because there's a lot of people who find it nigh on impossible to walk into a church building. Yeah, yeah, right. Um, and again, it's why we do Alpha online. You know, if you want to do Alpha, by the way, we've started one. Uh, more information on the website, www.crowd.church. Um, but it's, it's I think it's hard when you're— because church, like anything else— I, I remember the first time I walked into a CrossFit gym, right? I had no idea. I felt like such an outsider at the language.

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: The way they dress, the way they did exercise, the way they would sort of talk to each other, the way— I, I had no idea. And you feel really uncomfortable because you're like, what are the expectations? How do I How do I meet these expectations? What the heck does that mean when you say AMRAP? And you, you translate that into the church, and it made me think a lot about the church back then. You know, we'll use phrases like repentance or the blood sacrifice of Christ. It's like, if you've— what does that mean, right? Especially if you've never been before. Um, and so I, I think one of the— an interesting question, actually, just segueing into it from Ellis. If somebody feels like an outsider, what's the best way to come to understand that they aren't? And I think this is a really great question.

Mike: Yeah.

Matt: And there's so many ways to answer it, right? But I would say you've got to get to a point where you're okay feeling like an outsider at the beginning. Right? Because if you join a gym, if you join a church, if you go along to something, by very definition, you are new and therefore will feel a bit like an outsider. That said, I get that you can go along to things and feel like an outsider for a long time. Because people aren't comfortable in their skin, they're not comfortable in their group. You know, you mentioned about church not being the best place sometimes for people. So how would you answer that question? How do you— how would you answer the— if someone feels like an outsider, what's the best way to come to understand that they aren't?

Sharon: I think, talk specifically from a spiritual point of view, um, as Mike was talking, reminded me of a verse in 1 Timothy which talks about, um, how God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. It's like God wants all people to have that relationship with him. So I think it's a starting point of knowing actually that is God's heart.

Mike: Yeah.

Sharon: And that Jesus came for everybody.

Mike: Yeah.

Sharon: And it's like being able to accept that. I think for me, a lot of it's really getting into the truth of what the Bible says, like knowing what does God say about me? What does he think about me? And just like spending ages just soaking in that, getting it in and choosing to accept it. And I think getting around people that can actually help with that, people that— if you could just find one person in a church that you can click with and can start to help you build those relationships. Um, yeah, I don't know if that's helpful or not.

Mike: I, I think that's, I think that's the key. I think learning about what Jesus thinks about you, you know, is the key, isn't it? I mean, even if you go into a welcome— I mean, that, that is the most important thing. If you go into a welcoming church and feel really, really welcomed, The most important thing is still that you know that Jesus loves you and that he welcomes you and that you are part of his family. And I think, you know, if, if you know that, then it gives you a little bit more confidence to go into somewhere. And I think what you were saying, Matt, is, you know, if you go into a— you decide to go and do an Alpha course, when you get there, you are new.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: You, you're not— you may feel a little bit like an outsider, but to begin with, you are just new. And if you go there and you know that God loves you, that he accepts you, then that will probably give you the confidence or maybe the resilience to stay a little bit longer.

Sharon: Yeah.

Mike: Um, and then hopefully you do find the community that are also aware of their brokenness and their acceptance in Jesus and, and And if that is the case, then then they're going to accept you as well. I think you know, I think repentance is a really important process and regular rhythm that that is transformative for us as Christians because as we repent, we remember that that that we are saved only by the grace of God, and as we do that. we become more welcoming and, and more empathetic and more, um, prepared to listen and to, to listen to other people's stories and therefore become more welcoming. Yeah, I think—

Sharon: I'm aware we've used the word repent quite a few times, but there might be people that don't know what that means. So, babes, definition.

Matt: Oh, thanks.

Mike: Well, I, I, well, I think, I think the, the, the Greek for repentance, I think, can literally be translated as a change of mind.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: So one of the verses, I can't remember where it is off the top of my head, but it says, do not conform any longer to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Now that verse could, if my brain is working, could be translated, don't conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed through Repentance. So repentance is a renewing, a changing of your mind. It's changing, pivoting in a different direction, and, and moving in a, a way, in a, in a different direction, away from, away from what is bad. Sorry, I got a bit lost towards the end there. Yeah, yeah, go on, pick me up, fill in the gaps.

Matt: It's fair comment. It's fair. It's just simply turning around. That's all it is.

Mike: Yeah.

Matt: Just go the opposite way. Yeah. And I— and that's what I think you mean by it. But it is transforming your mind. It's changing the way you think. Yeah.

Sharon: And so not just any random thing, but specifically this is talking about, you know, what does God say about this?

Matt: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's understanding the truth of God. And and getting your mind to think that way, and I and you're right. I think the fundamental thing we see in scripture was Jesus would take people that were broken, and he would give them dignity. Do you know what I mean? He would take someone whose life did not conform to what society and the religious people thought it should be at the time, and he would welcome them, and he would sit down with them, and he would eat with them. And he would give them a place at the table. And in that place, that transformation, that repentance, like we said, would happen. And I think it's when you when you realize you've you've been given the dignity, you've been given the place at the table. There's a really great story of a guy called Mephibosheth. Don't ask me how to spell his name. Mephibosheth. He's he's a He's the son of a guy called Jonathan in the Old Testament, and Jonathan was a prince, and Mephibosheth kind of got dropped on his head as a baby and became, um, became disabled. I don't think— I think he couldn't walk.

Sharon: I think it was his leg.

Matt: Yeah, something rather than his head. Yeah, well, anyway, he couldn't walk. It's not in a good way. And he lives in a place called Lo Debar because it's below the bar.

Sharon: I mean, there's This joke isn't that good.

Matt: What kind of place is Lo Debar? It's below the bar. It's not a great place. And David is king, and, um, David sends out his soldiers to go find Mephibosheth, who thinks David's going to kill him. But David brings him into the house and gives him a seat at the table.

Sharon: Wow.

Matt: Because of the covenant he had with Jonathan, right?

Sharon: Wow.

Matt: He, like, he gives him a shedload of land. He restores a whole bunch of stuff that was taken away from him. And this is sort of this really redemptive story, um, of this disabled guy who would have been an outcast who was invited in and given a seat at the table. And that's you, right? That's me. Um, you know, when, when we see these things and it's like the Psalm 23, the very famous Psalm, he prepares a table before me in the presence of my— there's a table, there's a heavenly banqueting table. And there's going to be chocolate on it, and it's not going to calorie count. And there's all kinds of things that we've, you know, we've got access to through Christ. But the thing that we have to do is understand that, because, um, there's a famous story of someone who managed to scrape enough money to buy a ticket to, um, for the ship to the States, right? This is back when obviously we were Populating America, and they got this ticket. They scrimped and scraped and managed to get enough to get this ticket, and they're on the ship, and they see everybody dancing and eating food, and they're sort of sitting outside going, "Oh, I've not got enough. You know, all I had, I had all I had. I got to buy the ticket, and so I couldn't afford the food, and so we're eating scraps and all kinds of things." And it wasn't until they got to the other side, someone says, "What are you doing out here?" Someone sees them. Why are you not? in there eating? And they said, oh, because I, I spent all my money on getting the ticket, I couldn't afford the food. And the guy goes, dude, the food was included in the price of the ticket, right? And it's— there's just that revelation, that understanding that actually you have been given these things. But unless we understand it, we're like the guy sat outside, kind of half in all the things that God has given us. We never quite step into everything that he has. And I think that's a great image of being an outsider. And actually, one of the truths of Christianity is longer you walk with Christ, the more he draws you not into his inner circle, but more into the understanding that that's where you actually sit. So when Ephesians says we are seated in heavenly places, um, at his right hand, that's an incredible statement. And I don't fully understand it, but I understand it more now. Do you mean— and I And I think that's where the confidence comes. Maybe that's where the boldness comes from. And I— and as you walk in that and understanding it, life just takes a very different turn. And so I would say if you feel like an outsider, the first thing you need to do is feel like you are sat at the King's table, not because you deserve it, maybe not because you earned it, but just because the King went, you're worth it. And he gives you dignity and he puts you there. So that would be my answer. Anyway, we are going to—we are streaming onto YouTube. We are streaming into the Zoom room. We're going to stop the Zoom. We're going to stop streaming into the Zoom room. The guys in Live Lounge are going to carry on their conversation. So if you're in Live Lounge, you go for it. Dan's going to take a hold of that, and we can see everybody in Live Lounge. Way to everybody. Uh, they're all looking very happy. Um, so yeah, Talita's waving hello. Uh, so we will leave those guys now. Zoe, you can put us on mute. There we go. And we're going to carry on the conversation here on YouTube. Um, if you want to go talk physically to people, the link's in the comments to scroll back, go.crowd.church/livelounge. Um, but let's carry on the conversation here. So here's a question for you. Why did Jesus spend time with the sinners? We talked about this, um, inclusivity thing. Why would Jesus do that if he is a holy God and holiness matters? This is actually one of the big problems that the religious people had with Jesus, wasn't it, at the time?

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: That he would do this.

Mike: Well, I mean, When— whenever I am reading the Gospels, all I see is that, is that Jesus is actually drawn to sinners. He's drawn— you know, I was talking about the leper before. Jesus's reaction was to reach out and touch the leper.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Because what happened in that is that in that current day and age, the leprosy from the leper would have infected Jesus.

Matt: Yes.

Mike: But what happened was Jesus's holiness infected the leper.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: And so it was the other way around. So as Jesus's holiness infects the leper and makes the leper clean, and his life is transformed. And so Jesus's holiness was something that was healing. Um, and you know, I, I think I, I get where the tension is. I do. Um, and I find it difficult to explain it. Um, but when I read the Gospels, I see a holy God Totally holy, totally holy, being drawn to sinners. Yeah. Um, and be— and, and healing them. Yeah. You know, I think the, the story about, uh, Jesus when he, he's brought the lady who's caught in the act of adultery and he says to her, um, you know, I do not condemn you. Yeah. But he then goes on to say, doesn't he? He says You know, go and sin no more. That is an act of repentance, isn't it? You're acting in one way. I don't condemn you. Now that you know that I don't condemn you, what I'm asking you to do is to pivot and to go and act in a different way now. Um, his holiness is healing.

Matt: Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. It's interesting as well when you follow it through, because did Jesus include everybody, everybody in the Gospels? It's a really interesting conversation because we would go, yes, but did he, right? The one people group that he perpetually targeted, for want of a better expression, were the religious leaders, right? The Pharisees, the Sadducees. And it's not that they— it's not that he didn't include them, because we know that he did. There were Pharisees in part of his group and stuff. It was the ones that perpetually put him out, the ones that perpetually judged other people, that wouldn't include other people the way that he did. And Jesus is like— I think this ties into the holiness thing, you know, that I didn't— it's not the sick— I didn't come— what was it that he says? It's not the sick.

Sharon: I didn't come for the healthy, but I came for the sick.

Matt: Because it's the, you know, it's not the, the the healthy that need a doctor. And I think when you come to him and you meet that holiness, if the result of that is stubbornness and pigheadedness and a non-submission to both his lordship and his call for you to include other people, yeah, it seems by— not by him pushing you out, you are choosing to be excluded from that.

Mike: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Just see what I mean?

Mike: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: And I think there's, like you say, when you— when it comes to that holiness, why did he hang around sinners if holiness was important? It's because holiness was important— is important that he hangs around sinners. Do you know what I mean? And I think— and it's that call into that, um, that we, we as people find hard, I think, because there is a cost. It is a denial of self. You, you are going to have to welcome people you don't want to be around, right, who maybe physically stink, but also you may find morally repugnant.

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: Do you know what I mean? It's like, can a Democrat and a Republican be a Christian? Yes, right? And, and can they be in the same room? Well, I'm not quite so sure these days. Maybe they can. And so it's, it's, it's one of those where that call, that drive to holiness, you have to lay aside the repugnance, the anger, the bitterness, because the person in front of you is an image bearer of God. Yeah. Do you see what I mean?

Sharon: Yeah, I think, um, I think that the death and resurrection of Jesus on the cross are this— the perfect illustration of how God deals with this tension of He is completely loving and loves all of us. And the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by God's grace. So, um, I think like I said before, it's like some people recognize that they're sinners and some don't, but all of us actually are. So Jesus came for all of us. And it's like, because our sin, the things we get wrong where we miss God's standard, is so important to him, holiness is so important.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sharon: That's why Jesus came to die, to take the punishment we deserve, because otherwise we would be eternally separated from God. But on the cross, it's like the collision of his justice, his love, his holiness, all wrapped up together.

Mike: Yeah.

Sharon: Yeah. And it talks about how Jesus became sin so that we could become the righteousness of God. I'm not sure if we've mentioned that already. So it's like this direct swap.

Matt: Yeah.

Sharon: Um, yeah, that's a good question.

Matt: Yeah, fascinates me. A few other things here. The individual versus the crowd. So Jesus often dignifies one overlooked person rather than treating people as a social issue to solve. I think that's a really important thing. Um, I, I wish we had time to dig into that a little bit more. Um, I love this quote. Jesus moves toward people whom others move away from. He gives dignity before people have earned it, fellowship before people have fixed everything, and truth that invites a new life rather than shame that pushes people further away. That's good. That's great. I think it's such a great quote. Jesus moves towards people whom others move away from. He gives dignity before people have earned it. Fellowship before people have fixed everything, and truth that invites a new life rather than shame that pushes people further away. This is not a shallow inclusion. It is a costly, holy relational inclusion, the kind that sees every person clearly, refuses contempt, and invites everyone into the transforming life of the kingdom of God. Love that. Yeah, it's great. It's great.

Mike: I was thinking as you were talking about the conflict, I suppose, between holiness and love for us now. And I was thinking about that verse. I think— I don't know where it is, but it's where Paul is talking, and he says basically, if a— I'm gonna get this wrong, I'm gonna butcher this— I'll try and find it. But it's where if a Christian continues to keep on sinning, then you are to put them outside of the church. But the reason why you put them outside is so that they may be saved. And so it's that, like, exclusion in order Yeah. To include them. It's that we are holy, and so in love we are going to exclude you in order that you might be saved, in order that you may at some point come back in and, and, you know, and be included. It's like our heart is, is, is always inclusion.

Matt: Yeah.

Mike: But yeah.

Matt: No, it's true. I, I think it's It's, it's such a good point, Mike, because the most extreme part of church discipline, as we would call it, is to exclude someone from fellowship.

Sharon: Yeah.

Matt: Is to literally put them on the outside and say, until you change your ways, you, you have to be outside, right? And it's— I, I think you're right. I think it's such a— it's a, it's a really It's such a bad thing that that's what happens. That's where it— I mean, that's, that's the ultimate. Yeah. Like, you know, like when you're a kid, you're— we used to joke with our kids, you'd go on the naughty step, and it's like we were excluded from everything. We used to joke, can we go on the naughty step? Because we just fancy being there.

Sharon: I think it was actually the chill-out chair. Oh, the chill-out chair sounds a lot nicer. Just calm down.

Matt: Calm down. Can I go there? But it's interesting how, um, some of the most horrific torture that happens to a human being is all based around exclusion. Do you know what I mean? And exclusion is a punishment in many ways. It's a— and it's— yeah, we haven't got time to get into this whole topic of church discipline, uh, as interesting as that is. Um, but I think we'll end it there. Uh, we'll end The livestream. Do join us next week as we're going to carry on this series, Jesus the Revolutionary. I'm going to look down at my phone, which I know I'm not supposed to do, but I'm going to figure out who's doing what next week. Oh, Dan's back. He's just snuck into the room quietly.

Mike: He's been excluded. Yeah, he's been kicked out.

Matt: So we've got. AIDS, uh, speaking next week. We've got Will and Jan hosting, um, so do come join us for that as we carry on the conversations around Jesus the Revolutionary. Every bit of information you want to know about Crowd is going to probably be on the website www.crowd.church. There's all kinds of stuff on there. There's stuff about Alpha if you'd like to come along, join us for Alpha, a course that explores Christianity. We are going to start week 3 this week. It's definitely not too late to join, if you would like to do so, just go to the website and just click the registration form. I know a few people, a few more people have registered this week, which is great. Um, there's information about that. Uh, there's information about all the topics we've talked about tonight. You'll— there's a big catalog of stuff on there. If you'd like to join the community groups, the midweek community groups information's on there. All kinds of ways to get in touch with us and contact us. Basically the website, www.crowd.church. We would love for you to get more involved. If you need it, if you would you want to make Crowd your church, we'd love for you to get involved in Crowd. And like I say, the membership group, um, membership groups that happen on a Wednesday are really good places to meet people and connect with people and be included. And we have people from all over the world in them. They're amazing. Uh, and obviously likewise, Alpha is also actually quite an inclusive community group as well. So love to see you in some of those. But anything else from you, babe, in closing?

Sharon: I don't think so, no.

Matt: Uh, Mike, anything else from you?

Mike: Uh, no, I think I've said everything that I can think of.

Matt: You've definitely not said everything.

Sharon: We know you like to talk.

Matt: On that bombshell, we're going to end it this week. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world. We will see you next time. God bless you. Bye for now.