The Woman Caught in Adultery and the Grace of Jesus

Matt: Well, good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. Great to be with you tonight. That was said in my best podcast voice.

Dan Orange: That was a proper weird word.

Matt: I said this for a minute. I was doing my podcast. Welcome to the anyway. It's great to have you. Welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Matt. Beside me, I've got the beautiful Anna.

Anna Kettle: Hi, good evening everyone. It's good to be back.

Matt: And on the other side of me, I've got the beautiful Dan.

Dan Orange: Hello, hello.

Matt: Did you just go hmm?

Anna Kettle: That wasn't this podcast.

Dan Orange: No, that was a— how do I respond to that?

Matt: Yes, the beautiful Dan. Hmm. Okay, uh, warm welcome to you wherever you are in the world. Do let us know in the comments where you're watching, uh, and say hi. I will load the comments up in my computer in just a wee second. I'm a little bit behind. Um, it's good to be with you. Good to be with you today. Hopefully you've been having a good week wherever you are in the world. Have you had a good week?

Dan Orange: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good week, actually. We're just saying. And it's been like actually good weather as well. I've been working outside, so it's been quite nice to have good September/October weather.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, it's been like proper like blue sky autumn, hasn't it? As opposed to just like wet and rainy and grey. Which is like nice. Yeah.

Matt: Gotta be happy with that. Gotta be happy with that. So, um, yeah, let us know how your week's been. Uh, and for those watching in Live Lounge, a very good evening to you. Uh, if, if you're new to the— I was gonna say new to the show. I really, I need to get out of my podcast, uh, thinking here. If you're new to the livestream, uh, we also stream the, um, the video and the sound into something called Live Lounge, which is basically a Zoom room. And you've got in there Ade and Sonia, there's Rachel, there's Ros in there. So go and join them if you're up for that kind of thing. You get to hear the same livestream, you just get to interact with people in the Zoom room. You do need Zoom, but if you go to the URL go.crowd.church/livelounge, that's go.crowd.church/livelounge. you will be able to join them in there as well. So we've been doing that a couple of weeks now. So always nice to sort of go and say howzit to people and connect with people. So yeah, you don't have to be a regular, by the way, to go in there. Just go and enjoy it. So how was your week, by the way? Did I ask you?

Anna Kettle: No, I don't think you did, but it was very fine. It was very average.

Matt: Yeah, very average.

Anna Kettle: Nothing very exciting to report. from my household. I've had a sick husband all week. Yeah, average kind of work, work and school week, really. But it's been nothing, nothing bad. It's been good.

Matt: Fair enough. Last week, last Sunday, I was at Callum and Sarah's wedding. I got to do their wedding. So I love doing wedding ceremonies. And I got to do their wedding ceremony, which was fantastic. So Callum and Sarah Park-Crowd, and if you're watching, I hope you've had a good first week being husband and wife. It was a lovely wedding.

Anna Kettle: Where did they get married?

Matt: When or where?

Anna Kettle: Where?

Matt: At Allerton Golf Manor.

Anna Kettle: Oh, nice place.

Matt: Yeah, it was great. And it was going really well. I was doing really well in the wedding ceremony right up until I dropped the wedding rings.

Anna Kettle: Oh no. Oh.

Matt: Yep. And it was me and not the best man that did it, which is good. And then just to prove my clumsiness, uh, when we were doing communion, I also dropped a metal cake cutter thing on the floor as well. So I was being quite clumsy last week, which was a bit unusual. But anyway, Uh, congratulations, Callum and Sarah.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: So today we're carrying on our conversation, Jesus a Revolutionary. In the Jesus a Revolutionary series, um, we've been looking at Jesus and the life of Jesus and why we as Christians feel like he is so revolutionary. And so yeah, if you're new to Crowd, that's what we're going to be talking about tonight. Dan's going to be doing a little talk, then the 3 of us are going to be Critiquing Dan's talk, basically.

Anna Kettle: Especially Dan. He's going to be criticizing himself.

Matt: Yeah. So if it's not any good, we'll let him know. So now we do something— we again, we just rip this off Conversation Street. So we do something called Conversation Street, which is where we take your questions that you put in the comments based on tonight's talk and we do our level best to answer them. Of course, if you're in Live Lounge, you'll have your own little chat and conversation amongst yourselves, which is always nice. So that's how it, how it all works, really. Let me look in the comments. We've got Alicia. Hello, Alicia. We've got Lady Birkby, Ade Birkby, Katharine. Today is a rainy day in Georgia in the USA. Uh, I, can I muster any sympathy? No, no, sorry, Alicia. I can't. I live in England. Um, we just don't do sympathy for rain, do we really? Uh, but, um, Good to have you with us. Let me just— we have 2 live streams, by the way, just so you know, if you're wondering. I can't read those comments. Where are you getting those comments from, man? Um, Ellis, g'day. Oh, you're on the YouTube live as well now.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: Uh, we, we have 2 live streams, both the vertical one and the horizontal one. Both go depending on what device you want to watch on. So, um, help yourself to that. So without further ado, I think I've waffled on enough. Uh, are you ready?

Dan Orange: Yeah, I'm all good.

Matt: Yeah. Is your script all sorted out?

Dan Orange: Yes. I just— before I even start, I'll apologise for my last talk. I'd say if you want to listen, go and listen. Just put headphones on. You don't need— you don't need to look because I was— I was concentrating so hard. I don't think I blinked for 15 minutes. I looked back and I was like, oh man. Yeah, hopefully. So my contacts are going to sit right and I'm going to be able to see.

Matt: You're going to be able to blink a little bit tonight. So do you want me to give you a dig if you're just like not blinking?

Dan Orange: I'll just shake my head.

Anna Kettle: We'll just click like that every now and then to remind you.

Dan Orange: Brilliant. Painful.

Matt: Awesome. Well, over to you, Dan.

Dan Orange: Cool. Well, today's talk is on a great passage and possibly a bit of a controversial passage as well, which I'll explain later. And it's early on in John's Gospel, but it's a theme we see throughout the Gospel. The The religious leaders aren't happy and are trying to catch Jesus out. So, happens quite a few, few times in, in the Gospels. Um, and perhaps some of you are listening to this and feeling the same. Let's see what Jesus is all about. What's this Crowd Church about? If you have questions, then, well, this is the place to ask them. So, let's read. So, it's starting at verse 2, and it's John chapter 8. Early in the morning, he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and placed her in the midst. They said to him, Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law, Moses command—

Matt: Excuse me.

Dan Orange: Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say? They said this to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. But Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her. And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones. And Jesus was left alone with the woman, standing before him. Jesus stood up and said to her, woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you? And she said, no one, Lord. And Jesus said, neither do I condemn you. Go, and from now on sin no more. So just a few verses, but there's a lot packed in there. Firstly though, I said it's a bit controversial. Well, that's because these verses and a few before in the chapter before are not actually in the very early manuscripts of John's Gospel. Some even have it in Luke's Gospel. However, it's regarded as something that happened but may not have been written here, or even, even by John. It's picked up in the 4th century, so probably passed down by manuscripts and word of mouth. But it's in our Bible, it's in 900-plus manuscripts, and it stands up with the rest of the Bible. It doesn't go against other passages. But I believe it gives us another glimpse into how Jesus dealt with the religious leaders and his wisdom. So to me, for me, I'll let the real scholars debate the textual issues and manuscripts, and I'll read it and gain another glimpse of this Jesus that we know. So let's take a deeper look. The first thing that strikes me is that even if you don't know the Mosaic law, is that it takes two to commit adultery. And she was caught in the act. And there's nothing in the message to say what happened to the bloke. Was he a slippery one? Oh, we couldn't catch him, Rabbi. We got the woman, but the man evaded us. I think it's more than likely that this was a plan, a setup. The religious leaders used it for the sole purpose of trying to catch out Jesus. Can you imagine their planning? Let's see how Jesus gets out of this. Here's a woman, no doubt of her crime, and it's pretty clear in the law she should be stoned. But Jesus doesn't rise to their scheming. I love it. I love this. He just lets the hubbub carry on and then die down. And I was thinking, are we sometimes just too quick to react? I can be quick to comment on something or accuse, quick to put our point across.

Anna Kettle: Quick. Quick.

Dan Orange: To cancel each other out, or perhaps even too quick to defend God. And the woman, she was just standing there, perhaps semi-naked. The accusers had just grabbed her in the act, brought her here, and thrown her in front of Jesus. He didn't add to her shame by staring at her, by inflaming things. So Jesus bends down and just writes in the dust. Jesus is the Son of God, and he and the Father are one. And I was, as I was praying and studying for this talk, I realised that there's only 2 other mentions that I could find where the finger of God writes. Jesus is right, writing is not an insignificant act. It's not just something put in there. You know, we've, we've studied many passages here in Crowd, and details like this are written in, it's normally for a reason. The Bible doesn't just add extras just to make the story better. So, the first time we hear about a finger of God in the Bible is when Moses has taken the children of Israel out of Egypt. They're wandering in the wilderness, and he goes up the mountain and meets with God, and the 10 Commandments are given. In Exodus 31:18, it states, they were written with the finger of God on tablets of stone. And number 7, depending how you, you order them, um, is you shall not commit adultery. So Jesus knows the law, he wrote the law. So that's the first mention of the finger of God. And then secondly, in the Book of Daniel, the finger of God writes on the wall of King Belshazzar's palace, and Daniel, being known to be a man of God, is called to translate. And the translation says You've been weighed in the balances and found wanting. So if there's any Mumford and Sons fans out there, they didn't come up with that verse. They nicked it from Daniel. You've been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Belshazzar hadn't kept the law. The consequences of our actions demand the action of the law. So Jesus knew that our sin has consequences. There's a law and a sentence and that That's the second mention of the finger of God. So, the third mention is here in this passage. Jesus is writing. So, let's look at this now. So, what does Jesus write? Well, me and probably a billion others in heaven is a question that we'd like to ask, but I don't think we'll find out until then. But I'd like to think it was in response to the law, that he is the fulfilment of the law. So Jesus says in Matthew 5:17, do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. And also Jesus says in John 3:17, So after perhaps the most famous verse in the Bible, which is, for God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life, the next verse says this. It says, for God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. So the law is still valid, but Jesus came to free us from the eternal consequences Of that law. So yeah, it's a mystery what he wrote in that dust, but the Bible shows us that God created the law. It was written in stone. We've missed the target, that there are consequences. And Jesus knew the law. It wasn't a mystery to him. He knew there was only one half of the guilty couple there. He knew the intentions and schemings of the leaders. So he stands and gives them permission to fulfil that sentence. Go ahead, throw that stone, you who have no sin. And they slink off one by one. Interestingly, the oldest to the youngest. And I wondered, were the youngest waiting for permission to leave, or did the eldest, with their greater years of experience, realise firstly that their lives weren't perfect, or they actually had more sin that they could, you know, recall in their lives? And Jesus starts writing again. He doesn't inflame the situation. He allows them to realise their own foolishness, their own conviction. And I find that Jesus allows me to realise my own foolishness too. He allows me to time. He's not quick to accuse. The Bible says God is slow to anger and rich in mercy. And that's a great way to live our lives, slow to anger, Preferring mercy and patience. Then the story gets really good. So Jesus says, woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you? And she replies, no one, Lord. She's acknowledged the Lord, the Master. Everyone saw her in her worst state. They knew she'd failed. She knew she'd failed. It might have been a trap by the religious leaders, but she was still guilty and was caught. But the first thing she does is acknowledge that Jesus is her Lord. Her Master. And she does it faster than her accusers. And I think often it takes our failures to realise that we need a Savior, that we need to know the Master, that we need to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. Everyone will one day, when we meet the Judge of Heaven, will, will have to realise this. But you don't have to wait till then. The woman didn't. But anyway, let's listen to Jesus' answer. He says, neither do I condemn you. Go from now on and sin no more. Jesus saved her from her physical life, from stoning, and then gave her the keys to eternal life. Go and sin no more. Because Jesus has defeated the power of sin and His word speaks freedom to this woman. I wonder what happened to her. I'm sure she probably became one of Jesus' followers. She knew she was loved by Him, even in her state of failure. But she now knew He was her Lord. And it's not what others think of us or how they see us in our failure, in our nakedness. The real big thing is what we're going to do about it. The woman acknowledged Jesus and He forgave her and gave her direction. The men wanted to end this woman's life just to win an argument, but Jesus wanted to save it because he's the Lord of mercy. Is there anything in your life that's blown up in the past and caused you shame? A past action, a failed endeavor, an old tweet or blast from the past, some shame that you think is too much for God, too much to be forgiven from? Well, I say God knows our end from our beginning. He knows our failures and our successes. So knowing that, though— knowing— sorry, I got tongue twisted. So knowing that, that— yeah, um, yeah, he knows our failures and our successes. So knowing that, will we acknowledge him and obey his direction? My question for you is, in your current situation, where is your hope? Is it doing what's right? Is it in the law? Or you're never going to meet those exacting requirements and always be found wanting. Is it in your lifestyle? Does your lifestyle, your job, your identity give you hope? Does your religion give you hope? Does your Christianity give you hope? Or for you, is it just a label? Because being a Christian is a decision to follow Jesus, and I believe that's the only way to have hope. To experience his mercy, his grace, Because he took our punishment. He didn't condemn that woman under the law because he fulfilled the law that we might be saved. When I was younger and I could stay up past midnight and I didn't have restless legs and sleep, and I could lie in in the morning, I'd go into Liverpool city centre and give out cups of tea and coffee to anyone that wanted it, to the homeless and to those out on the town. And one evening, uh, Girls said to me, you should change the way you talk about Christianity. You should market it better. Words like saved are a bit extreme, a bit outdated. They're a bit final. Well, yes, they are. If we're drowning, we need to be saved. We need to be given help. Anything less just isn't going to be enough. So, Jesus took our sin and our shame on the cross. He was shamed for us. Exposed, crucified in our place. Everyone saw what looked like his failure, looked like the end of a promising life, but it was just the start of his sacrifice for us. His completion of the law. He took our punishment, that, that woman's stoning. Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. Because he has broken the power of sin and death. Sometimes we need to fail to see we can't make it on our own. Amen. I'll just finish with this verse from the letter, in the letter to the Romans. It says, for the scripture says everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.

Matt: Thank you.

Dan Orange: Are we done? We're done. Sorry, I caught you mid-comment replying.

Matt: Yeah, you did.

Dan Orange: Bless you.

Anna Kettle: You should—

Matt: we need— we need to use phrases like, I'm coming into land.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Which is the famous sort of preacher ending, isn't it? I'm bringing it in.

Anna Kettle: It's either, it's either that or like Matt needs to concentrate more and listen.

Matt: Maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's what it is. Very good. All right, just move that microphone close to your mouth. There we go. Professional. Thanks, Dan. Very good. I love the, um, I love the idea. The thing that stuck out to me straight away was this idea of the finger of God.

Dan Orange: Yeah, it's just when I was praying about it, I thought, yeah, oh yeah, this— there's not many times it—

Matt: how many times you see God's finger?

Dan Orange: No, no.

Matt: Yeah, and I thought that was lovely actually, the whole idea of the finger of God. You do wonder what he wrote in the sand.

Dan Orange: Yeah, I'd love to. I mean, I will be there. Well, after we've done singing for a few thousand years, perhaps I'll ask him what he wrote.

Matt: What did you write in the sand? Yeah, write in the comments what you thought Jesus wrote in the sand.

Anna Kettle: I think It's quite interesting that the Bible doesn't tell us what he wrote, which sort of makes you think what he wrote wasn't the point.

Dan Orange: Oh, yeah.

Anna Kettle: You know, like, if it had been important, surely it would have been included.

Matt: Maybe. Do you think it was like a doodle?

Anna Kettle: Maybe, maybe just draw a smiley face, or—

Dan Orange: But I also felt from that that he did that to take that shame away. You know, they all wanted everything, all the attention to be on that woman, didn't they? And he just bent down twice. He bent down, he just I'm not gonna be a part of this. I'm not gonna inflict more on this woman and inflame this situation.

Matt: Yeah, I always review— I thought it was good you mentioned actually that this, um, is a story that's not in the early manuscripts. And I, I mean, just as a sort of an aside, I think this is a really good point because I don't think— I mean, people have debated the Bible for years The fact that as Christians with our sacred text, we write down this was not in the earliest manuscripts, we put— we're totally clear. Yeah, I mean, it's totally above board. I think that's pretty cool. The other thing I, I would— that I like what you said was it doesn't mean it's not true. Yeah, because actually it was true enough for the people in the early church to believe it.

Dan Orange: Exactly.

Matt: It just wasn't recorded for whatever reason in some of the earlier manuscripts, but we knew the story was true. I think there's a bit of debate whether it should be in Mark's Gospel or—

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Um, rather than John's. But, um, and I— and the reason why I think it's good that we talk about it and why we've included it is because also there's nothing in that story where you go, well, that's very out of character for Jesus. Do you know what I mean? It's all like, that's all him. Yeah, that's all what you expect him to do and be and, and say and, and act and so on and so forth. So Um, I'm, I'm pretty okay with that, uh, that, that we, that we have talked about it.

Dan Orange: Do you know what I mean? That's why, because it's been— it's only when I started looking at this that, uh, Wes Huff, who we'd mentioned a few times before, he actually did a thing saying I wouldn't speak on this. And I was like, oh great, that's what I'm speaking on. But then when I looked into it, I thought, well, like we've just said, there's nothing in there that's contrary to the rest of the Bible. And it just gives a bit more of a glimpse of who he is and what he's done. Yeah, what he's done for us.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: Well, Alicia says that in the comments, it's one of her favourite passages, and, uh, she saw you blink several times, so we're good.

Anna Kettle: Oh, good. So you're not an AI, apparently. So that's good to know.

Matt: Ade was wondering whether you were AI. If you're just joining us and thinking, what are they talking about? Uh, Dan said at the start of his talk that in his last talk he didn't blink because he was so concentrated on trying to deliver the talk.

Dan Orange: I was really struggling to see the words.

Matt: And so we were, we were monitoring his blinks tonight, and he seems to have done all right. Um, but yeah, I, I, I do love this, this story. And when I— the thing that I think about in this story, there's 4 people. It's Jesus, right? There's the woman, there's a fella, and there's the leaders.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: Right. And I think when you— you can analyse this story through all 4 lenses, can't you? So the woman and her shame, the man thinking, I got away with it.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, right.

Matt: Because men are very good at thinking they get away with things if they don't get caught in the act. It's not actually true. Just want to point that one out. We'll get into that. Maybe there's the religious leaders who are violating their own rules and principles to try and catch Jesus out. You know, this do a little bit of bad for the greater good in their eyes is okay. which is why we all think they're hypocrites now. But it's— I think that's something that we all do. And of course, then there's Jesus who's like, all right, chaps, let's, um— and of course, well, I suppose there's another group. There's a crowd that's judging what's going on. And, you know, they're all, they're all following the rules. Let's pick up the stones until Jesus goes, go ahead, if you've not got any sin, have at it. And it's like, ah, yes. And so, yeah.

Anna Kettle: And it's interesting, isn't it? Because when you think of The story's told and you can see it from different angles, like the religious leaders and the woman and the bloke who's completely absent. And yeah, there's all these different angles and just the crowd who are sort of standing on judging. Yeah. And you just sort of think, oh, but there's elements where we've been all of those parts. Like, I feel like there's times in my life when I've played all of those roles.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: Probably.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, just puts you in those different positions. And it's like, yeah, kind of how— but it's interesting that I also think Jesus reserves the most, I don't know, the most challenge really for the religious leaders who are hypocritical and point the finger at others. He doesn't actually judge most harshly any of the people that are caught in sin.

Dan Orange: Yeah. And the first one to be freed is the woman. Yeah, the first one to be freed is— yeah, is that, that lady that's failed. And I, I love that all those other people that they're looking in.

Matt: Yeah.

Dan Orange: But she, she gets to meet God first, meet Jesus first, get to know who he is and acknowledge that. And I do think sometimes we might look at our failure and go, I can't even show my face. But sometimes that brings us that place. And all we can do then is fall on Jesus. Well, everyone's seen my worst life. Yeah, what have I— what have I got to lose? Almost. Yeah, you know, I can just— let's follow, follow him.

Matt: And it's actually— it's probably worth mentioning, um, again that adultery was a big deal back then. I mean, it's not so much of a big deal now unless you're a politician, in which case your career is over, which I still think is quite hypocritical. of society. I do. I really do. Anyway, that's another story. But I think that you've got, um, you've actually got a really serious issue in society at the time. This whole thing of adultery, the breaking of trust, the breaking of covenant. Um, and so we look at it and go, it's a bit extreme because we're judging it through modern Western eyes, right? Where 30% of people are having an affair. I don't know what the stats are, but do you know what I mean? It's When you look at it through that, you go, well, that was harsh. But actually, you've got to look at it as to how they would view it at the time. You've got to have that cultural context, I think. And it was a bad thing that she did. And it was a bad thing that she got caught doing. And there was no escape in that.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Right. And in the modern culture, what would we have done if we, if we'd have caught somebody doing something really bad? Well, we would have shouted about it on social media. We would have canceled them. We would have done all these things that we tend to do these days. That's how bad it was.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: I mean, for this, this woman. And I, I just love the spirit of Jesus that doesn't cancel her. But at the same time, there's a— I think again, one of the things that we do in, in the modern West especially is we confuse forgiveness and accountability. So if you forgive, there's no accountability.

Dan Orange: Yeah, right.

Matt: And so if she's done something really bad, surely she should be held accountable for this. And Christ forgives her. And of course, we know that there was accountability with Christ on the cross, right? That's, that's the whole point. That's the whole juxtaposition of it. But I think it's this really interesting challenge that we have at the moment in our thinking between what is accountability and what is forgiveness in the modern world.

Anna Kettle: We live in a weird culture, don't we, where it's quite a graceless culture. Like, we judge people quite harshly when they're caught out, and we don't have a lot of grace for each other, really. It's like, oh, like you say, if somebody just steps out of line or says one bad thing, it's like, yeah, cancelled.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anna Kettle: But at the same time, yeah, it's kind of like Jesus's sort of reaction is, you know, like, go and sin no more. So it's like, it's like, it's not letting them off. It's like, it's like, you're forgiven, but also do better in future. Like, it's, you know, that, that's kind of how Jesus handles it again and again when he encounters people, not just this woman, but different scenarios with different people who are doing things they shouldn't be or falling short. And that's the kind of— attitude that he gives. I think it's, it's like the, I'm not kind of letting you off the hook. Like, that's not what forgiveness is about. It's like forgiveness is like you're let off the hook, so be transformed by that. Yeah, that should change your life. Yeah, yeah. And you should never be the same again because you've been given so much grace.

Matt: Absolutely.

Anna Kettle: So it's kind of weird that we live in this graceless culture that doesn't really want to let people off the hook.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: But then there's no transformation through that either, is there?

Matt: No, it's just condemnation. Yeah. And it is I think we do live in a world of shame. The amount of people— might be one of them watching, you know, but just consumed by shame.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: And that, that may be because of what you have done. It may be because of what other people have done to you. I mean, that's a whole nother topic which we'll get into at some point. But it's this whole idea of shame and the, the destructive power of shame. So you can do the thing where you can bury your head in the sand maybe and pretend like it doesn't exist. But I think the, the beautiful part of this story is actually there's no escape from it, but there is release and there is redemption. Um, and I think that's the, the story of the gospel in many ways.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Um, yeah. Katharine, does it get stressful trying to figure out what's right and wrong in God's eyes?

Anna Kettle: It's an interesting question. I wouldn't say it's—

Matt: Does it stress you out trying to think about it?

Anna Kettle: I don't think it's stressful. I think it's probably freeing to be like, I don't have to think about all this myself or deal with it all myself. But I think it's a constant challenge to be like, am I living up to what kind of I believe God wants for my life or not? I think it's constantly something I have to come back to and reflect on and challenge. myself with. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's stressful.

Dan Orange: I think if it— if, if you're living to us, to a set of laws, then it would be stressful because you've got to make sure, have I— what have I done or not done? Is what I'm doing now, does it go in there? But when God brings his conviction, he, he brings that on us, you know. If we're doing something that's not what he wants us to do, that's not how he wants us to live, then he brings that conviction. And he's like, like with that woman, he's slow to anger. He gives us that time to realise, yeah, this is not right here.

Anna Kettle: And that's—

Dan Orange: I would say that's not stressful. It's because it's transformative of your mind. There's, yeah, a new heart, isn't it? A new creation.

Anna Kettle: And that's the point, isn't it? It's not conviction to catch you out and make you feel bad. It's conviction to set you free. Yeah. And help you reset. the direction of your life. Yeah, but that's the purpose of when— when— yeah, that's the conviction of God is so different to the conviction or condemnation of people because it's freeing.

Matt: Yeah, it is. And, and again, I think it depends on how you approach the topic. So like, I've been married 28 years, right? I don't wake up thinking Oh, how do I make sure I please my wife all day, every day? But I, I hopefully live in a way that is pleasing the majority of the time. I'm not always in the doghouse. And it's not like it's a stressful thing to do. I want to please my wife. I want to— because that's a relationship we have, right?

Anna Kettle: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I'm not in a relationship with God because I'm scared of him. That— well, Maybe I am a little bit scared. There is a healthy fear, let's just put it that way. But it's more a case of, well, we, we want to do those things that please God, just like I want to hang out with my mates. I want, I want to do the things which please them. I'm not, not— it's not a bad thing to want to be pleasing to people.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Right. And to be pleasing to your God. And Paul talks about, you know, living a life worthy of his call upon you. And it's like, this is not a bad way to spend your life. So it's not stressful. Do I always get it right? No. That would be the honest answer.

Anna Kettle: Yeah. But this is an interesting point that's come up in the feed. So I think it's Alicia that said it. I think failure can be an effective teacher as long as shame doesn't overtake the impact. I also think it's important to recognise that we can fail in morally correct endeavors.

Matt: Yeah. That's so true. Failure is a really interesting topic, I think. Having these conversations with various people recently that failure in itself is not a bad thing. Moral failure. I mean, what we will call moral failure, the moral failure of somebody. This woman was a moral, you know, moral failure. I wouldn't go looking for it, but I, I think failure is a good teacher if you don't get caught up in shame. I think.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: I have just a simple principle in life that God can handle my failure much better than he can handle my disobedience. Yes. Right. And so if I fail at something, it seems like God is better at dealing with that than if I just sit there and do nothing. Do you see what I mean? And just disobey what I feel like the Holy Spirit is telling me. But I would venture to say a lot of my business success has come out of failures.

Anna Kettle: Mm-hmm.

Matt: If I'm honest with you, certainly it's come out of difficult times that you would go, well, this is a failure. You know, if you were to look at it from a, a pure business point of view, sales are down. Oh, I failed. Okay. Well, actually, out of that comes something quite wonderful. And so I think you're right, Alicia. I think that the trick is to not get caught up in shame. There's 2 ways to approach it. I think one is to be not bothered by it, which is your man.

Anna Kettle: Yes.

Matt: They got caught in adultery and he's walked away and he's gone, got away with that. I hope they don't come and talk to me later. Do you know what I mean? I hope they don't tell my wife. And it's kind of like he— it's that feeling that I've got away with it. Um, you can have that approach to failure. Uh, and as if I don't— it's a bit like, um, you go down a road, if you know where the speed cameras are, you're going to slow down. Because you don't want to get caught for speeding. But what do you do in between speed cameras? You don't care because you know you're not going to get caught, right? So there's, there's that whole thing of that sort of willfulness in the eyes of God, I think, where it's just like, I can do what I want whenever I want because, you know, it doesn't matter what I do or fail or not. And then there's the other aspect of it which says, I am so far caught up in this failure that I am deeply, deeply ashamed.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: And so one of the first things you see in the Book of Genesis, isn't it, is where sin enters. What does Adam say? I hid because I was naked and ashamed. And I think I see that in this story with the woman, you know, the naked and the shame. And God's like, huh. What's interesting is he didn't deal with the shame straight away. He said, who told you you were naked? Yeah, right. But it's, it's a really fascinating sort of story, isn't it? But I think You're right, you can go to these 2 extremes. Either I don't care, um, or I care way too much and I'm, I'm, I'm paralyzed by this shame. Um, yeah, anything else to add to that?

Dan Orange: No, I think, um, yeah, and that shame, that shame can do 2 things. It can, it can realise that you need to do something about it or it can hide.

Anna Kettle: Hmm.

Dan Orange: You know, you can use it just to hide away. Perhaps it's something that, that has got you. You know, it might be, you know, a very sort of dark thing, and, um, like perhaps pornography. It's, it's a shame because it's, it, it's hidden away from, from everything, and you've just, you just, you just, you just push it down, and you don't want to talk to anyone about it. You don't, you don't want to do anything, or it may be something that, um, other people have seen. And then there's, in some ways, well, it's out there.

Matt: Yeah.

Dan Orange: I can, I can be free from it. But, but don't let those dark ones— don't let that thing that you do outside, out of anyone else's view, keep you from God.

Matt: Yeah.

Dan Orange: You know, that, that's what I'm trying to say. Don't let that shame keep you from him because he, he's seen it anyway. He knows. Yeah, he knows you.

Matt: And I think the, the thing about it is, can you bring it into the light, right? What's in darkness is never good, and, and shame holds you in darkness. Yes. So can you bring it into the light? So you take something like porn, which is a classic example of something that traps both men and women in quite complex shame, and it is dark and it is I don't want anyone to know. I'm going to delete my browser history. I don't want anyone to see kind of a thing. And I think as soon as you can't talk to somebody about it, it's hidden.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Right. And as soon as it's hidden, it's in darkness. And I think— and Adam hid from God and God was like, where are you, dude? Yeah. And I think God would say the same. Where are you? Don't hide. Bring it out. Because he's a merciful God. And then on the other side, if you're like the fella and like got away with that, That's a different kind of darkness.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, I think you can get— I see people on TV now so brazen about the stupid stuff that they've done, like it's a badge of honour. I don't get it. And I think that cockiness and that arrogance— well, pride comes before the fall. And I think you just have to be really aware of things like that.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: And because then you are you are setting yourself up in direct opposition in God. And I think sometimes you, you can hide things, um, and then sometimes you can just directly oppose God. And I, I don't know, it's a fearful thing to fall in the hands of the living God, isn't it? I don't know if I'd do that myself. Not that brave or foolish, maybe. I don't know. That's a bit deep, isn't it? It's a bit harsh. But I think these things are interesting topics. One of the people groups, um, that we haven't talked about is the religious leaders. Um, and this is— I think this applies to Christians quite nicely in the sense that, do we, um, do things to try and catch other people out, um, for the wrong reasons?

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Do you know what I mean? Is that— that's— and I've seen this quite a bit in church. And it, it creates gossip, although we don't call it gossip. It's just sort of like, well, I just want to know what to pray for, you know, or, um, all those other sorts of phrases that Christians are very good at hiding what's really going on with. And I think it's— have you ever been in a place where you have tried to set something up or engineer something to make you look good and somebody else look bad? Because that's what I see in these religious leaders, right? And to try and catch Jesus out.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, it's a— it's another harsh warning. Uh, anything going on in the comments? Have you been monitoring the comments? I need to put my spectacles on. Ellis says, it stresses me out a little bit. I don't want to have misinterpreted X as what I should do when it's actually Y. I think this is going back to the whole failing thing, isn't it?

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: I think I get that, Ellis, um, in the sense that I think personally, uh, that it is harder to miss the will of God if your heart is right before God than you actually think it is. Yeah, right. Yeah. I don't think God makes it difficult. I think it's good that we're concerned about it, and obviously we want to get it right. Um, but everything I read in Scripture is all about God leading his people, especially the people whose hearts are right before him. And so this is what I mean when I say that I think God can handle my failures. Um, he just can't handle my disobedience. And I think if my heart is right before him and I'm trying to do those things that please him, if I get it wrong, I think there's grace for that. But I, I'm not sure that it's as hard to get it right as we sometimes think it is. Like, the will of God is a kind of elusive elixir. I always feel like on the important stuff, God is very clear.

Anna Kettle: Like, it's very black and white. Like the 10 Commandments— don't murder people, don't lie, don't steal.

Matt: And I'm grateful for that.

Anna Kettle: You know, like, but the important stuff to God, he makes very clear. And they're black and white rules to live by.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: And you know, they're the big moral things, aren't they? But aside from that, on the more like, what shall I do? What job shall I do? How shall I spend my money? Who shall I date? I mean, there's some things that are like, sensible or not sensible, but actually within, within the will of God, he gives us a lot of personal choice and freedom.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: And actually, like you say, Matt, if you're— and I used to get really like, oh no, what does God want me to do with my life? What should I do? What job should I do? And, you know, growing up in church as a teenager, I used to get quite stressed by some of that stuff. Um, but actually what I kind of learned to realise was like God is just for us and he wants the best for our lives. And within kind of those moral boundaries and the frameworks that he gives us to live in, actually, there's a lot of freedom and choice.

Dan Orange: There is.

Anna Kettle: And it's like, you could do this or you could do that, you could do whatever you want to do, and I'll bless you and I'm for you and I love you. And actually, when you realise that's God's starting point, it's quite freeing and releasing. And actually, I don't, like you say, I don't think it's that easy to be like, to fall out of, if you're genuinely wanting to follow God, to pursue God, to do the right thing, to please him. It's very hard to miss the mark. Yeah, in terms of like God's will for your life, I think.

Dan Orange: Yeah, I think his will is that you're in relationship with him. Yeah, I mean, we could go back to last week's talk where Ade talked about the, the talents, and the worst thing there was God gave this person this talent and he just hid it, just sat on it. Yeah, you know, the other guys actually took a risk with their talents and it just Yeah, I, I don't think, Ellis, I don't think that's— I think just do what you believe God's asked you to do.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Dan Orange: And it's easiest to turn at something that's moving, you know. God will just— if you'll go, if you are doing something that is wrong, I mean, the thing is, is always to be in communion, communion with your Father.

Matt: Yeah.

Dan Orange: Isn't it? Um, it is praying, it's spending time with him. If you're if you can look God in the face, if you can have your, your relationship within your time with him that's growing, you're, you're heading in the right direction. If there's something there that's, that's a, that's a blur, that's a, that's something that's, that's, um, fogging your view of him, well, that's the thing that, yeah, you need to deal with.

Matt: Yeah, totally agree. And like you say, he directs our paths.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: And it is easier to turn a car when it's moving. And yeah, yeah, it's, it's all good. Um, so what we're going to do now, uh, is end the stream to Live Lounge. So those of you in Live Lounge, we're going to wave goodbye. You can wave bye back so I can see you on the screen. There we go. Um, and so we're gonna let those guys go away and chat amongst themselves, have their own mini conversations. We are going to keep live streaming for about another 10 minutes or so. So if you want to stay with us on YouTube, you're more than welcome. We'll keep going. But for now, for those of you in Live Lounge, we will see you. Well, we'll see you in about 10, 15 minutes when we're finished here. We'll come join you. But yeah, so you can pause that. Very good. So you see how skillfully I did that?

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: I was amazed too. So, but yeah, going back to this thing about God guiding you, right? As you were talking, Dan, the story that came to my mind is a story— it's an illustration I've used a lot. We've got the Apostle Paul, right? The aged Apostle Paul, the, the man who is the dude, right? He wrote 2/3 of the New Testament. He talked about how to hear God, right? The Holy Spirit guides you in all things. And he's— he, he knows. And he goes on this missionary trip, right? The Apostle Paul. And he's like, we're going to go on a missionary trip. So, you know, he's prayed about it. He thinks it's the right thing to do. He's got his team, they've prayed about it. Everybody thinks it's the right thing to do. And as they go on that trip, the Bible says the Holy Spirit constrained them. And you go, hang on a minute, surely if this was the Apostle Paul, yeah, he should have known that before he even set off, right? But it was as he went that he felt the constraining of the Holy Spirit. And they change direction, which goes back to the it's easier to turn a car when it's moving analogy, isn't it? It's like, when you're doing something, stepping out in the things of God, he directs you and he guides you. And you may have that sense that, oh, I'm constrained. It's not that I'm doing what I'm doing is wrong. It's just that it's not— I need to be somewhere else. Right. And so we can trust that. Absolutely. We can, we can trust God will guide us in those things.

Anna Kettle: And I think, I think sometimes there's There's times where you read in the Bible where you're like, even when people were trying to follow God, he didn't just take them from A to B in the straightest path. When you actually look at how God works in Bible characters' lives and also in our own lives too, it's often like— I'm realising the older I get, the less it's about the destination, like getting from A to B as fast as you can.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: God's less interested in us getting from there to there and more interested in the journey and journeying with us. And you're like the Israelites in the desert. They wandered for years and years, a journey that should have taken 20 days or something if you geographically measured it out. And they spent years in the desert wandering all over the place. And it's kind of like, yeah, but the journey the kind of getting to the endpoint wasn't the point. It was like the journey and what they learned on the route.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: And on their way as they walk with God day by day and they trusted his provision and they learned from their mistakes and they kind of listened to God and they disobeyed God, then they listened. You know, it's the process. And I just think the more I get on in life, I think it's less about the endpoint and it's more about the process of walking with God day by day. I don't know, it's just interesting.

Dan Orange: I know in my life there's times when I've thought, why, why God didn't I— why didn't I just do that at the beginning? But still, on that path I'm on now, he still uses me and still can teach me stuff on, on that route, you know. Yes, that would have been better, that would have saved me a lot of heartache, but just this and that, had conviction and done that thing. Yeah, but he didn't give up on me. Yeah, he still taught me some stuff through it, and he still helped me through to the end.

Matt: That's King David's story. Yeah. And if I— if you, in fact, if you tie King David with the woman caught in adultery— so King David, um, one of Israel's greatest kings, you know, the Bible says the man after God's own heart, wrote quite a lot of Psalms. But we— he not— he committed adultery, he committed murder.

Dan Orange: Yeah, right, to get rid of the husband.

Anna Kettle: Definitely made some big mistakes.

Matt: I mean, let's put it that way, foul-ups, didn't he? Yeah, you know, he did some crazy stuff on the way.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: And don't get me wrong, there were consequences for that. And we don't often talk about consequences on Crowd, but there were definite consequences. And we can't shy away from that. And so there was that accountability, but there was also the forgiveness and grace of God. And in spite that, Jesus still came through that illicit affair. You trace that bloodline, that's where Jesus came from. And so I think God's very good at redeeming things that we mess up.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: But I think sometimes when we mess up, there are consequences that we have to live with.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Like the woman caught in adultery, there would have been consequences. So in the sense that Jesus tells her to go away and sin no more, that he doesn't condemn her, that before God she has no shame, you know, there would have been the gossip mongers, right? The religious leaders, all the crowd that picked up the stones. It would not have been easy for her to escape that identity of the adulterous woman.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: In the community that she was in, right? Everything starts with identity. And how hard would that have been unless you surround yourself with people that remind you of the grace and goodness of God in your life, right? And so I think it's a really interesting point that Jesus can redeem us, but there are sometimes consequences. And for her, the consequences would have been people knowing that she got caught, right? And I, I don't know whether— it doesn't say— scripture doesn't say that God airlifted her out of that. I don't know if he did.

Dan Orange: Yeah, we don't know if, if she, if she was married, if he was married. We know we don't know what, what she had to go back to. Yeah, you know, like I said in the talk, I do feel like if, if she was on her own, potentially she was one of the followers, she realised, well, he saved me, you know, I'm gonna do this. But it may be like you say, she had to go back into that village, back into that, um, house, into a family, and deal with it as well.

Matt: But the— this— how do you deal with that, right? So how do you deal with this whole identity, this And I, I think the thing that I take away from the story is what she would have lived in, in terms of the community and society, would have been hard. But the foundation was right.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Right. In other words, she understood that Christ had forgiven her and he did not condemn her. And on that, she could rebuild her sense of self, her sense of, um, who she was, regardless of what everybody else around her was saying. Because if all your if she was just going to the community for her identity, I don't think that would have worked well. But because the foundation was Christ— we were talking about this in Alpha the other day in terms of self-help, how self-help is very limited because you have to rely on self to get you out of whatever you're in, right? And this woman in this situation, where would she go if it was self-help? Nowhere. And so it was that foundation of Christ's forgiveness, which begins to change the identity of who she is. So she goes from being the adulteress to being beloved to being daughter. Um, just don't do it anymore. Oh yeah, I wonder if she did though.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, I mean, we don't find that out, do we?

Dan Orange: Yeah, we don't. But I must admit, I was speaking to my, my dad. My, um, my dad's a preacher as well, and He, he said— how did he put it? These were— this was Jesus speaking to, you know, he spoke those words of life. And, um, for— not that she couldn't have sinned again, but she experienced those direct words, go and sin no more. I think— why would you want to? I think, yeah, we are— me we miss this, that powerful word of God, doesn't it, when it, when it comes and speaks directly to you? And she was there, she was eye to eye with Jesus, the Son of God, and he said, go and sin no more. I don't think she would ever forget that moment.

Anna Kettle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt: Interesting. Were you going to say something, Anna? Sorry.

Anna Kettle: No, I was just thinking about the crowd as well. So I don't know, for me, I just think Like, she— yeah, I also felt like that whole thing of when she goes back to the community, the village, you know, but Jesus has dealt with her, but he's also dealt with the crowd because he said to them, like, well, he's kind of dealt with the crowd and the religious leaders, hasn't he? Because he said, well, whoever's—

Matt: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: You know, not sinned, cast the first stone. And then everybody slowly slinks away. So he's dealt— he's He's dealt with the specific religious leaders that were trying to trip him up.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Anna Kettle: He's also called out the whole crowd. Like, the fact that nobody went, oh no, I'm still, you know, gunning for it. He's like kind of created space for her in the community because it's like, well, I've called them all out as sort of like not hypocrites, but like really it's none of their business. And actually you've all got your own sin in your own life to deal with. And that really challenges me. It's like that thing of like, Really, if it doesn't directly involve me, then I don't need to gossip about it. Don't need to have an opinion on it. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't involve me. I shouldn't really be talking about it or putting myself in there. And actually, you know, let's believe the best of other people unless it's like, you know.

Matt: I'm with you. I think it's an interest. I do wonder though, because that crowd would have been men. Yeah.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: whether the men would have gone away going, yeah, who's he to tell me? I think some of them would have got convicted. And so because—

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: I think the majority of the religious leaders and the men in that crowd would have been bullies. I could even go so far as to say abusers. Um, and I think when other people are looking, it's easy to act the part. Yeah, it's easy to throw the stones down on the floor because everyone else is doing that. Right? And there's that personal conviction. And I pray that, you know, God, when I have that, change me. Because how easy would it have been to walk away and pick up another metaphorical stone? Yeah, I'm not going to stone you, but I am going to give you so much grief.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: When no one else is looking, because I feel ashamed now of who I am.

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: And if I'm, if I'm an abuser or a bully, if I start to feel ashamed, I'm going to lash out.

Anna Kettle: Yeah. So true.

Matt: Do you know what I mean?

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

Matt: And I, I, I, I do wonder, um, because there is this idea, isn't there, that actually Jesus challenging them like that, he protects her, as in she doesn't get stoned to death. But does this make it better or worse for her over the next few years? Do you know what I mean? It's a, it's a really interesting question. And again, I come back to, I don't know the answer. What I do know was her foundations were now set though.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: And that's the point. Um, is her identity now could be rooted in the fact that she is no longer condemned, that she is beloved and she is daughter. Um, and if she'd— if you can keep focusing on that, then I think it's, um, yeah. Time, guys. Uh, final thoughts from you, Dan?

Dan Orange: I'm just thinking then, and I, again, I like that he bent, bent down. He didn't, he didn't pick out certain people, didn't pick out people in the crowd, or the religious leader, or, you know, the ringleader. He just said, you know, who among you hasn't sinned? So the first stone— then he bent down, he let their own convictions decide, you know, I'm not going to do this. Not—

Matt: yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing there is by him sitting— because I always wonder, why did he bend down? Everyone else has stood up ready to stone them. The one person that could stone him doesn't pick up a stone.

Anna Kettle: Yes.

Matt: And he sits down.

Dan Orange: Yes.

Matt: It's like, I'm out, guys. I can do this. Yeah, I'm— but this is my posture.

Dan Orange: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. Final thoughts from you, Anna?

Anna Kettle: No, I was just thinking about the, um, finger of God thing again, and I think that I'll just go away and think about that a bit more this week because, yeah, I just never seen that in scripture before. And yeah, just think it's interesting.

Matt: The finger of God abbreviates to FOG.

Anna Kettle: Thanks for that addition. That's Matt's final thought, everyone.

Matt: How to make stuff sticky and memorable. Oh, and on that bombshell, uh, thank you so much for joining us next week. Um, actually, what is going on next week? I did get an email about it earlier. Uh, I think it's— I'll tell you now, I'm not going to argue. Um, next week is Ade again. Oh, Ade's back. So we've got Ade and Sharon and Mike next week. Um, the one I'm— and I'm looking forward to that. And I'm also looking for the week after, Dave Connolly. Uh, the title I've got here, whether he sticks to it is another question entirely. Uh, but the title I've got here for Dave's talk, When Romance Isn't Enough. So I am really curious to hear what Dave's got to say there. In fact, you and me are hosting that one.

Anna Kettle: Okay, that should be fun.

Matt: So we can prep on that. Um, but yeah, if you want to know anything about Crowd Church, if you want to find out anything about what we do. We've got Alpha courses running. If you're exploring Christianity, you want to know more about the Christian faith, we're running a course at the moment. You're more than welcome to join still. It's not too late to join. You can find out about that on our website, which is www.crowd.church. On there, you'll find out about community groups. You'll find out about some of the meetups we've got coming up, the baptism classes we've got coming up, what Live Lounge is, Uh, we've just put a big thing on there about how to read the Bible if you're not sure about how to do that. Um, oh man, it's all going on. Uh, so do check out the website crowd.church. Um, there's a lot of really good stuff on there. Um, and if you want to reach out to us, if you want to connect with us, you can do all of that through the website. We'd love to hear from you. If you have any questions, anything you would like us to pray for, there's a team that prays every Monday. Um, let us know through the site. If you want to come join our midweek community groups, we would love to hear from you. Etc., etc. So there's a whole bunch of stuff on there where you can really connect into Crowd, find out more about what we do. And we'd love you to make Crowd your home, make Crowd your church, come join us and be part of what God's doing here. We would love to have you join us for that. And we're just so excited. And we're so grateful for all the things that God's doing through this sort of online medium, which none of us predicted a few years ago, really, did we? But it seems to be working quite well. Um, so yes, www.crowd.church. Uh, but from Dan, from Anna, from myself, thank you so much for being with us this week. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world. Uh, we'll see you all next week, but that's it from us. God bless you. Bye for now.

Anna Kettle: Bye.