The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats Explained

Matt: Well, good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. great that you're here with us. We just went a little bit live quicker than I expected to, but that's okay.

Anna: It's keeping you on your feet

Matt: Tonight. We're trying a new bit of tech tonight and Dan's getting a bit excited. So, very warm welcome to you. it's great to have you with us. We have in the studio tonight, beside me, The all-round beautiful, good, talented, amazing, generous, fun-loving, any other adjectives I can use to describe you, Anna? What have I missed?

Anna: Just keep going. I'm like loving this. This is a great intro.

Matt: So yes, we've got Anna in the studio and, on the other side of the water, and some hills, we've got, we've got Ade joining us from North Wales. Ade, how you doing, brother?

Ade: I'm okay. I'm feeling that introduction was a little bit of a letdown in comparison to the—

Matt: Oh yeah, sorry.

Anna: Yeah, I hear you on that one, Ade.

Matt: The equally beautiful, talented, generous, kind, all-round good egg, which is Ade. And actually, I, we, I, I saw Ade, on Friday, went to his house. Yeah, I saw him and Sonia. We had a little, little drink and a little catch-up, which was lovely. so yes, a warm welcome to everybody, joining us from around the world. Crowd is an online church. We we do church, we do it online, and we're trying to figure that out as we go along. So a very warm welcome to you. Great that you could be here tonight. Ade is speaking to us, which I'm very looking forward to. Anna and I will kind of host the evening. We'll chat about the questions that you put in the chat. So if you're watching on YouTube, you can write questions in the comments. Whether you're watching on the horizontal stream. Or the vertical stream, it doesn't matter. The comments do come through to us. In fact, let me put my glasses on. We've got Ros in the comments, Ade's in the comments, even Will is in the comments. And Will is actually also hosting Live Lounge. Now, if you've not heard of Live Lounge, Live Lounge is where we stream into a Zoom room. And there's some people in there already. We've got. Will, we've got Chloe, we've got, Sharon, and Sonia and a few other people that I can't really see right now. There we go. They're all in the Zoom room as well. So if you want to join in with the crowd livestream, but join in with people, chat with people, connect with people at the same time, then live, a live lounge is the place to do that. And you can, reach that. on the URL www. No, go. What is it? Go.crowd.church/livelounge. Yeah, yeah. Ignore everything that I just said. It is go.crowd.

Anna: We quite often do. No, I'm joking.

Matt: Go.crowd.church/livelounge. That's all one word, forward slash live lounge. And the go is really important. It's like a little subdomain which redirects you to that Zoom room. Will will be in there. He would love to greet you, meet you, and all of that good stuff. so yes. Alicia's in the comments as well, and Ellis is in the comments. So good evening, everybody. A very warm welcome to you all. it's great to be with you on this— well, I was going to say sunny Sunday, but it's now dark.

Anna: Yeah, it's dark and it's cold, and it's quite— it's actually quite misty out there as well. It's quite eerie.

Matt: It is very eerie. The fog, did you, the fog, I don't know whereabouts you are in the world watching this, but, we had serious fog yesterday.

Anna: Fog's unlivable, yeah.

Matt: It was mental. I could, I could barely see but 5 foot in front of me when we went to the bonfire celebration. I was trying, I was in, because Bonfire Night was what, Thursday? Yeah. Have you ever tried to explain to anyone outside the UK about Bonfire Night?

Anna: Yeah, Americans, they don't get it at all. They're like, well, you just have a big fire. You can just do that any day, like.

Matt: Yeah, and it's something to do with burning Catholics. We're not quite sure, right?

Anna: And a plot to, like, explode Parliament.

Matt: Yeah, and it's, Al Marshall calls it the biggest propaganda ever. And it's just, Ade, have you ever tried to explain Bonfire Night to anybody?

Ade: You know, growing up in, in Ireland, it was definitely an interesting one. Of course. Yeah, you know, on that side of the pond, it's not hard to get people excited about blowing up the British Parliament.

Matt: Yeah, celebrate it for a different way, right? so yeah, that's— so if you have no idea what I'm talking about, if you're outside the UK, just go and Google, Bonfire Night. But it is worth remembering, actually, today is Remembrance Sunday. and so obviously, As with many around the UK, we take the time to remember that today is a day where we remember those that have fought so bravely, for us over the years. We do enjoy a lot of freedom in this country thanks to the bravery of men and women from times past and times present. and we're very, very grateful and aware of that. and yeah, wherever you are, again, whether you're in Whatever part of the world you're in, there are some very brave people who fight for our freedom, and just taking a little bit of time to be grateful for them is what we do. So I think what I'll do is I'm just going to say a quick prayer of thanks, and feel free to join in if you're able, and then we will head on over to Ade. So yeah, Lord, thank you for the men and women who so bravely put their lives on the line for the freedoms. that we enjoy who are serving at the moment on the front line. Lord, we think of the different wars that are going on at this moment as well, and we pray for Your peace. We look forward to a new heaven and a new earth where war will no longer exist, but before we get there, Lord, we continue to pray for peace, and we remember those who have fallen, those who have gone before us. Amen. and with gratitudes in our heart, Lord, we thank you for them, in Jesus' name. Amen.

Anna: Amen.

Matt: Okay, Ade, you ready?

Ade: Yeah.

Matt: Over to you, my friend.

Ade:

Well, thank you. So tonight we're going to look at the sheep and the goats, which is, Jesus's final teaching to his disciples before he was arrested and then Before his death. It hinges around final judgment, but it's really about the attitude that we have to those who are less fortunate. And it's interesting when you look around in society and even look at some of the larger studies that have been done in this. Back in 2006, Princeton University did a big study where participants were showed pictures of various social groups.

And two-thirds of them admitted an immediate reaction of disgust when they viewed unhoused or destitute individuals. And this isn't a lone occurrence. The Mental Health Foundation report in 2024 showed that 21% of low-income individuals report discrimination or unfair treatment due to their financial standing. In fact, it also mentioned that 26% of people who felt like they were struggling to get I felt similar discrimination. And perhaps the most shocking one I came across was the Joseph Rowntree Foundation study in 2018, where 69% of the people in the study agreed with the following statement, and that is, there is enough opportunity for virtually everyone to get on in life if they really want to.

It comes down to the individual. And that's quite shocking. I'm going to repeat it just so you can hear it all. 69% of the people in this study agreed with, there is enough opportunity for virtually everyone to get on in life if they really want to. It comes down to the individual.

This is a very sad state of affairs indeed, and it doesn't end here. When we look at lower-income people or even countries, there's a, a trend in giving. Now, various studies confirm that lower-income individuals have greater empathy for poor individuals, but low-income countries, if you look at the percentage of their income they give, on average, low-income companies— countries give 1.45% of their income versus 0.7% of high-income countries. And to call out a few specific examples, Africa give 1.54% of their income, Europe 0.64%. So overall, we can see that the attitudes toward the less fortunate in our world today are not particularly favourable toward those who are less fortunate.

So we're going to have a look at this sheep and the goats passage in the Book of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 to 46. I'm just going to read it out quickly now. When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of this world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me.

I was sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you came to visit me. Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see a stranger and invite you in, Or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?

And the King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you have done for the least of my brothers, mine you did for me. And he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you who are cursed into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in.

I needed clothes and you did not not clothe me. I was sick in prison, and you did not visit me. They will also answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty as a stranger, or needing clothes, or sick in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Before we get into it, it's worth looking at the context and some of the references used here. Now, for a start, sheep and the goats seems like a bit of an odd analogy at first, but this was back in biblical times. Farming was one of the main sources of work, and so agricultural references were very easy for the common folk to understand. And it was quite normal for sheep and goats to be grazed together during the day, but at night they were separated. And this is because sheep are really hardy and they're more resilient to the cold.

Goats have shorter hair and need either the warmth of a shelter or to closely huddle at night. So this was a very typical and relatable everyday sorting process that the average person could understand. Now, when we talk about hospitality back in this time, resources were scarce and travel was dangerous. So showing someone hospitality wasn't just being polite, but this was potentially a matter of life and death. If someone literally ended up sleeping randomly on the side of the road or in a field somewhere, they may not wake up the next day.

And there weren't many, many hotels. There weren't any hotels. You know, people who were travelling relied very often on the kindness of strangers. Now the Greek for the word used for nations in verse 32 is panta ta ethnē. My Greek pronunciation is terrible, I do apologise, but in Jewish context this specifically means Gentiles.

Jesus here, he is expanding the scope of God's covenant from Israel to all nations. Now this is a fairly heavy passage we've just gone through, but Matthew 25 is, as I mentioned before, it's close to the end. After this chapter, Jesus is arrested and goes on to his persecution. This is the last teaching before Jesus's death, so he's not mincing words here. He's not wasting time.

He's getting straight to the point. And this was with a private audience with his disciples on the Mount of Olives. Now, maybe a month or so ago, we spoke about the trilogy of readiness with The 3 parables stories in Matthew 25. They illustrate what the period between him going after his death and then coming back in the Second Coming should look like. And each of these parables highlights a unique aspect of being ready.

And, you know, the parable of the 10 virgins at the start of Matthew 25, it's all about Being prepared while you are waiting. We go on to the parable of the talents that we talked about a month or two ago. This is very much about waiting is not a passive event. It's about stewardship. It's about faithful investment of our resources and gifts whilst we are not waiting passively, and our relationship to our possessions and abilities.

Now, the sheep and the goats takes this to full conclusion. It's all about Action whilst we are waiting. It's our relationship with the people we serve. It's how we treat the least among us. It's about expressing faith through love for the vulnerable.

Now Jesus uses some interesting symbolism in this final passage. For a start, the Son of Man is a reference to Daniel 7:13-14, which says, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory, and sovereign power over all nations and peoples, and every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom It's one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel was already prophesying about this, what Jesus is talking about, back hundreds, a couple of thousand years before. When he's talking about the shepherd, he is referencing Ezekiel 34, and this is a passage where God ends up challenging the corrupt leaders of Israel, and he promises that he himself will act as The true shepherd in verse 12, as a shepherd looks after his scattered flock. When he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. The analogy of right versus left in ancient Mediterranean cultures, the right hand signified honour, authority, and blessing.

The left hand signified rejection or lower status. And as we remember, the sheep went to the right-hand side, the side of honour and blessing. The goats went to the left-hand side, the side of rejection. And just the comparison of sheep versus goats themselves: sheep represent compliant, trusting members of God's flock, whereas goats, they're useful, but they're independent and stubborn, and they're destructive to pastures in the same way that the goats can be destructive to God's flock. So what we see here is God has a very different measure of success that that that you and I have.

And we talk about in verse 32, all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from the other as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. It's like no one no one can escape this. There is a judgment that is coming. And people will fall into one of two categories. And the measure for success, we'll say, in this judgment, it is not measured by political power, nor wealth, nor religious titles, nor military strength.

It is measured by love and the compassion for the most vulnerable among us. It's measured by our pure, non-transactional Now, when the righteous answer him in verse 37, and they're like, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? We're seeing that true holiness here is unselfconscious. The righteous aren't keeping records. They didn't help people because they wanted to get something back.

To put themselves into God's graces. They simply saw a need and they acted in love. And this is a result of their, their transformed hearts, hearts that have been transformed by a close personal relationship with God. And we're seeing this is just a pure giving mentality. By the same account, When the goats will say, say, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick and imprisoned, did not help you?

Theirs is a sin of omission because they're not being accused of murdering or stealing or breaking the 10 Commandments. They're not being accused of scandal. They're being accused of what they didn't do. Theirs was a sin of apathy, of indifference. And I'm pretty sure they would have acted differently if they had recognised God in these situations, if they had recognised the king in rags.

However, that shows a heart that is still thinking transactional giving mentality. The blind— their blind spot was their undoing, and it showed where their hearts were really at. So when we think about this in our own lives, when it comes to the measure of success, how do we measure? Are we actively helping vulnerable people around us? 1 John 3:18, dear children, let us not love with words or speech, but with actions and in truth.

Words aren't enough here. We must have action. Are we unselfconsciously holy? Do we help vulnerable and people without even thinking about it, or do we not? Or when we do, is it—is there another angle?

Is there a transactional kind of mentality there? Micah 6:8. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. Finally, are there areas where we are failing to act?

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but no deeds? Can such faith save them? It's inevitable. One day we will be divided Into sheep and goats. Which herd will we fall into?

Because it's one or the other. Days after preaching this, Jesus went on to become the ultimate least of these. His body was broken and brutalised before a horrendous death. He didn't just sympathise with suffering, he lived it. He acted through it.

He died for everyone. There were no favourites. He died for the least of us. He died for the most of us. Quite frankly, those 2 terms aren't in his vocabulary.

What we do to others, regardless of their social standing or vulnerability, matters. This week, as you're going through your week, look around and think, where are the least of these in my life, and what can I do to help? Amen. Thank you.

Matt: Turn the mics back on. Usually helps.

Anna: The technology is just flawless tonight, isn't it?

Matt: What can I say? What can I say? I'm a professional. thanks, Ade. the sheep and the goats. I was very tempted actually to write in the comments, Jesus is the goat, but then I realised where this talk was going. Just because it would be very

Ade: Confusing.

Matt: It would be very confusing because GOAT is often used as a phrase now, isn't it? Means greatest of all time.

Anna: Yeah. My son says it all the time. It's like a gaming thing, isn't it?

Matt: Yeah. He's the GOAT.

Anna: Yeah.

Matt: Right.

Anna: He's the GOAT at everything.

Matt: Which kind of runs contrary to this parable.

Anna: Yeah.

Matt: So we just have to, we just have to clarify meaning, I think. Yeah, thoughts on that, Anna?

Anna: Yeah, I really— there was a lot in it. I really loved it. I think that question that Ade posed at the end about who's the least of them in your life, in your week, kind of just thinking about your everyday context, is really, really helpful because sometimes it's like, yeah, it's good to think about. And, you know, just as we were finishing there, it's like, oh, that's It's really interesting to think about because it's maybe not always the obvious. It might be someone in your, you know, in my team at work who's having a hard time. It might be, might be the homeless person I walk past on the street on my way from the train station to work, you know. Like, this, you know, might be the single mum who's struggling with a, you know, who's got a kid in the same class as my son Ben. Like, yeah, it just got me thinking. I was like, that's such a helpful question and, and such an important one to think about. And I think probably looks different, in different seasons and from day to day even, doesn't it?

Matt: Yeah, it does. Yeah, it's really challenging talk in many ways, isn't it? Because, it, it— I mean, I'd quote James that the whole idea of, faith without works Is dead. I don't know, actually, did you quote that or did I just read that in the notes? I can't remember. Anyway, this idea that faith in action, which is the thing that this, this whole parable challenges, isn't it? In many ways, it's like saying, I believe versus I believe, therefore I do.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Matt: That actually there has to be an outworking, doesn't there, of your faith? You can't be a Christian in name only and think that that's enough. and I think this is the thing that this gets to in, in, in many ways. It gets into quite a bit of detail. It gets into many things. but it's one of the, the things that it does get into.

Anna: And, and it, to me, it's not just that it, it's like faith requires action. Like the two go hand in hand. So yeah, yeah, your faith should motivate you into action. into doing something. but it's also— it strikes me it's the fruit of that action. So yeah, Jesus also talks about like, you'll know people by their fruit, and it's the same idea as like sort of sifting out, you know, goats and sheep.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna: To me, it's like, it's not just taking action, but it's like, what are those actions? Because if they're not motivated by love,

Matt: Yeah,

Anna: If they aren't— if they don't kind of show love then it's hard to believe that they're motivated by faith in God.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna: So we kind of live in a culture, don't we? I don't want to get too political, but we live in a culture where there's lots in our country and other countries, America and elsewhere, where there's lots of people that talk a lot about faith.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna: And they even call themselves Christians quite often because it's a good vote winner, or they want the Christian vote. But in reality, it's like, how much of what is being said and done is motivated by love? And if it's not, then is that faith? Like, yeah, it's— so I think it's a really timely kind of, you know, we've just come out of the midterm elections, haven't we, in America? And I think it's really— it's timely to sort of think about kind of, yeah, not just kind of action, but that action needs to be motivated in love. Otherwise you can kind of test it and be like, is that really from God?

Matt: Yeah.

Matt: Well, isn't it? It is true, isn't it? James The brother of Jesus, he, he writes this letter, doesn't he, in the New Testament? And he says, you believe in God, good. Even the devil does that, or even demons do that, right? So I see it as almost like there's 3 types of belief. That you can have a belief in something and it doesn't transform or change anything. a bit like the demons believing God.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Matt: There's a belief which says, I believe this, I will run my life according to that belief. And then there's a belief which says, I will not only run my life according to this belief, but I will run it even if it costs me, right? Because you can have a belief and run your life by it, but as soon as it costs you, you might not, you might not take that further.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Do you see what I mean? And there's, and there seems to be this sort of depth of belief, which I think is, is a really interesting one because I think you can believe something and not act on it. But I think you can look at someone's actions and also understand what they believe. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's a really interesting dynamic. Ade, you must have thought about this when planning the talk.

Ade: Yeah, I mean, that links in with the parable of the sower, you know, how deep do those roots go when challenges and troubles happen? And that's when we really start to see the fruit. Fruit of the Spirit, you know, when things are going wrong and actually, you know what, roots are deep enough, still kind of pushing through. Yeah, it's not nice, but you know, we're getting there and we are exhibiting, the fruit of the Spirit at the same time.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting one. Well, Sharon's put in the comments, how do we measure success? That's an interesting question, on this whole basis, especially as a Christian. How do— maybe a better question is, how do you measure success as a Christian? What is a How do we measure a successful Christian life? I think it's a pretty deep question. Ade, how do we, how do we measure success? You're a scientist, you measure a lot of things. How do we measure a successful Christian life, do you think?

Ade: We measure it by the fruit of the Spirit. We measure it by the output. So what are we seeing? you know, John says, by their fruits they shall be known, and we are known by our fruits. So yeah, we can We can talk the talk, but are we walking the walk? We can kind of profess what we believe, but it's only by demonstrating it through our life and also demonstrating it through our life through the hard times as well as the easy times. That's how you really measure the success. And that's kind of, in this case, it's very, that is very much a lagging metric. Mm-hmm. You know, we can measure that after the fact. I think to kind of flip it on its head and think, right, well, what are the leading metrics of success in the Christian life? Well, are you spending time in the Word? Are you spending time praying? Are you really plugged in and actively involved in a community? Are you serving that community with the heart of a servant? And, you know, these are things that, you know, you can kind of look at yourself and think, honestly, am I doing that? Yeah. And if I am and I'm following God, then, you know, we're setting ourselves up for those lagging metrics of growth in the fruit of the Spirit and other good things happening.

Matt: Yeah. Mark Buchanan, if he's listening, will love the fact you've just talked about lead and lag measures. I just want you to know, everyone's, everyone's like, what, what are you talking about, lead and lag measures? Mark Buchanan, who's, who's coming on to the, he's speaking actually. I just talked to him earlier on. He's speaking at the end of January. He spoke at Crowd a few times. He's really big onto the lead and lag measures, so he'll be very impressed. Everyone else, I'm just like, this is not a management consultancy. We won't, we won't get into those. but no, I think it's a really interesting point, is it? I mean, how would you measure success? I mean, what maybe a better question is, do you feel like, Anna, you are living a successful Christian life? And what does that actually mean to you when you hear phrases like that?

Anna: Yeah, it's an interesting question, and I kind of agree with everything he just said.

Matt: And that's handy. Yeah,

Anna: Like, it helps. so we're on the same page. That's good. yeah, how do you measure it? And like, like, I would like to think I'm leading a successful Christian life, but what does that really mean? I don't know. I guess just that I'm growing in an awareness of God's presence in my day-to-day life. I think I've been a Christian quite a long time, and I think those basics like spending time in God's word and having a regular prayer life and stuff are some things that I do have in place.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna: But I guess when it comes to the fruit, like, like Ade said, it's only shown and revealed over time. And I guess for me, some of that is about the gifts of the Spirit, like you said. Like, am I becoming more loving? Am I becoming more patient? Am I becoming more kind? Am I becoming more generous? And those kind of things. yeah, and I also just think some of it is like, as, as Ade said, when your faith's tested, what comes out then when you're under stress?

Matt: Yeah.

Anna: You know, I don't, I don't get it right all the time, definitely, but I'd like to think the further on you get with God and the more mature you come in your faith, then you get it hopefully right more times than you get it wrong.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna: And yeah, am I becoming quicker to forgive and slower to anger? And yeah, all of those kind of character things, I guess.

Matt: I've just— sorry, I've just got, I've just got images of Andy. If you don't know, Andy is Anna's husband. I've just got images of Andy standing there with a stopwatch. Is she slower to get angry? Only 3.2 seconds this time, love. Well

Anna: Done.

Matt: Yeah, no, but I get it. I, I think it's, it's It's an interesting one, isn't it? And, I think it's a really interesting question. Will's put in the comments. He said, in a kids' club, that he used to help with, we used to offer a reward for those that could sit and listen to the short message after the game. not sure what I felt about bribery. Now I've got kids of my own, but it obviously works. What I was always struck by was that, of course, kids were so desperate to catch his eye and to show their good behaviour. Okay, so we're talking about living a Christian life. Are we so desperate to try and catch God's eye and show our good behaviour? And Will says that they missed the message that non-transactional action does not always, come naturally. And one answer could be, is God glorified? Well, I hope I've got your thread right there. but it is this interesting one, isn't it, that you can— Yeah. Listen to something like this and go, right, I now need to do good things to try and capture God's eye, like it's— I'm going to get rewarded. and—

Anna: And that's like the, the right things, but with the wrong motivation.

Matt: There you go. Explain.

Anna: So, obviously God wants us to love each other and serve the least and you know, just anyone who he puts in our path, really.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna: Yeah, and to do good, like the Bible tells us over and over, to do good, doesn't it? And, and yeah, you can do it being motivated, like you said, like Will's point, really. You can do it just thinking, I'm doing this to almost— it can become like— and I know I've done this, you know, at times when I was younger, do it almost thinking, oh, get God's favour or more of God's favour if I do the right things. Or maybe I'll just get more favour from my other Christian friends and the community around me, the church around me. and I think it's missing the point because our only motivation should be God's love, and that's what should motivate us. yeah, otherwise it's, you know, yeah, I don't know.

Matt: It's the tension, isn't it? Because Christianity is not about your performance, but you are to do stuff As a Christian. so let me just go through the comments. Sharon said, is success about love God and love other people? Ellis agrees with that, which is good.

Anna: I mean, Jesus said, you know, he was asked, what is the greatest command? And he said exactly that, love God and love other people.

Matt: Actually, nothing else. Yeah, Ellis is ahead of you. He's put that in the comments. and so he said to him, he quoted the verse, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And the second, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. And, Warren has put here, a successful Christian life is quite simple to define. A successful Christian life is a life that is faithful to God and obedient to his word, and little is much when God is in it. which is a, is a, is a great sort of phrase, isn't it? It's, It's an interesting idea of, of success. One quote which I quite like, which says— this is morally significant, Ade, I'd love your thoughts on this— he says, I believe it is not an excuse for failing to live it.

Anna: Hmm.

Matt: Okay. But I failed to live it does not logically establish I never believed it. Right? So let me say that again. I believe it, or saying I believe it, is not an excuse for failing to live it, which I think is what this parable addresses. But I— if I fail to live it, I fail to live it. Saying that does not logically establish that you don't believe it. Ade,

Ade: That's back to Walking the walk rather than talking the talk, but recognizing that we can fall over and make a mess of it, but we're better off falling over and making a mess of it than not doing it at all and just keeping this as an academic exercise.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Ade: Again, back to James on, you know, what good is faith without, without works?

Matt: Yeah, very, very, very true. thank you for your comments, by the way. Keep them coming. we'd love to hear your thoughts on this. One question, right? If your life, were judged by how you treated the most overlooked people around you, how would you fare? Who are the least of these in your world? Not in theory, but in your actual daily life. Any thoughts on that, you two?

Ade: Randomly.

Anna: Silence.

Matt: Oh, you both, you both waited the awkward silence and then you both spoke at the same time.

Anna: Yeah, but mine was just to say silence.

Matt: Sorry, Ade, carry on.

Ade: So, and I'm actually not going to go into specifics here because I think these things are better just kind of not called out, but every now and again, Sonia and I, we come across people who They need help. Maybe it's they just need some food for something or some money, or— and it's just being there and being present and actually just giving when it's not expected. You know, we're in a cost of living crisis. People are struggling. Mm. You know, we recently, we tried to rehome stuff when we don't use it, and we ended up rehoming some stuff. And there've been numerous times we've actually ended up giving the people receiving it so much more after we've heard their story. And we're like, you know what, you need this kind of more than we do. So I think just in our— just going through normal day-to-day life and our normal interactions there, you know, there's opportunity for that. We have 3 sponsor kids with Compassion UK. We used to work quite closely with them back when I was a Christian contemporary artist and Son used to play in my band with me. We would bring Compassion to our gigs. We would have sponsor kids next to CDs on the merch table. We'd have a video on the show. And as long as I was doing that, I wanted to make it more than about the music and more than about evangelical outreach. I wanted to bring people's attention to this. And I think we don't have to look very far in our lives, even if it's like, okay, I live in a really affluent neighbourhood, but you just need to kind of go online and find, you know what, there are charities that would love your financial support, even if you have time for nothing else.

Matt: Yeah.

Ade: There are charities that would love your actual legwork, your hands-on, actually go there and volunteer. I mean, we're coming into Christmas, and it's, this is a time of year— this breaks my heart every time I hear it— but charities are turning volunteers away every single Christmas because people want to do the whole soup kitchen thing right around Christmas or on Christmas Day. The rest of the year They're not, they don't care. They don't want to do it. But it's because it's in the media, it's on in Christmas films, and it's like, this is, you know, this is kind of like warm and fuzzy, and this is what good people do. If the same people just volunteered, if you took all the people that volunteered at Christmas time and they gave one month, you know, other months in the year, and you spread them throughout the year, charities will be a lot better off. And the sad thing is charities end up turning people away at Christmas time because they're like, well, actually, We're full, you know, we actually, our members want to do this and they're here all year round and they give priority to them. So I think you don't really need to look hard to find the least of these. And we don't have to look hard in ourselves to find something that we can do. We just need to actually do it.

Matt: Yeah, it's an interesting challenge, isn't it? And I think that you're right, you don't have to look far. for the least of these, do you? And I think I'm reminded of the— is it the starfish story where the young girl's on the beach and she sees all the starfish and she's picking them up one at a time and throwing them in? And a guy stops by and says, why are you doing that? It's not really making a difference. And she goes, well, it makes a difference to that one because there was so much and so much need that she couldn't do anything, everything, but she could do something for one. and I think Often with things like this, it becomes easy to get overwhelmed by everybody's need. that, that it causes paraly— paralysis and we do inaction basically. But sometimes just doing something just for one person and making a difference in someone's life is just a great way to start.

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And I think there's so many ways, to do that. Will said so many people or situations we've just got, not got sight of, which is true. Ryan's put people at the nursing home. I never think about them. and actually there's a loneliness epidemic, isn't there? And it's a great point, Ryan, because a lot of guys, certainly the elderly, a lot of, lonely elderly people, we could visit, we could invite round. I mean, the list is endless.

Anna: It's a good point though, because we tend to think, oh, what can I do for the least? And we think, oh, well, give, give some money. Like, that's in our Western mindset, that's like kind of what we think charity is.

Matt: Yeah.

Anna: But actually, quite often, like, we live in a— we're very time short, aren't we, as human beings? And I think quite often giving some of our time and our effort is actually more valuable than just our money. Like, it's, you know, if you're reasonably well off, it's quite easy to throw money at an issue from a distance. But I think actually getting your hands dirty and getting involved has more impact for that person, even if it's just one person. And it probably has more impact in terms of changing your heart and your outlook as well. Definitely, that's been my experience. Like, just to give your time is often sometimes more important than anything else.

Matt: Yeah, it is. It is.

Anna: And we can all do that, can't we? Like, everyone can give a bit of time, even if you don't have much resource.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. I think the challenge is very much a case of just, you know, I, I find these kind of things very challenging because you always want to do more. and I think we, it either leads us to burnout, or it leads us to inaction because like I say, you see the depth of the need. and only we know before God, do you know what I mean, what's going on. So I think, yeah, I, Ellis has put there, Jesus mentioned visiting, so this doesn't cost a penny. So that's right, Ellis. which I think is, is kind of, is, is very true. so what, what could you do, right? would be a great question here before we sort of end the livestream. Is there someone in your community? And the answer is yes, of course there is someone in your community that you can help, and, and do something with. I'm just reading the comments, so I'm getting slightly distracted. Ellis has put there, there are also non-monetary ways to help others even if your means are limited. For example, people constantly need health information and good communication can provide that. Yeah, I mean, there's so many ways, and use your strengths, right? Use the gifts and talents God's already given you. but I think there's something so powerful about helping people in fact, I was just writing about this today, and I'm going to peddle what Ade calls peddling, peddling my new app. we've got this new, new gratitude app coming out from Crowd Church soon. and I was just writing, one of the things in there, and this— there's a sort of this wonderful thing in scripture where when you help people, it causes thanksgiving in the people that you help, and thanksgiving leads to generosity, and generosity, guess what? They become helpful people. And so you start a really interesting chain reaction. And so, yeah, how could you do that? How could you start a chain reaction where you're just helpful in whatever means and mechanism that you can do to those around you? and not that this is not meant as a criticism, it's not meant as a heavy pressure. You may be already helping 1,000 people in your neighbourhood, but, for those of us that aren't, especially around Christmas— and let's not just be the Christmas Christian that Ade talked about, I think is entirely right. Ade, any final thoughts on this before we head over to Live Lounge?

Ade: Yeah, I think this ties in very nicely with stewardship, which again, the parable before this in Matthew 25 was on about. But we often associate stewardship with, you know, our assets and our finances, but it's actually our time as well. And, you know, it's Finding ways that we can be good stewards of the time that we have to help other people. But then also, like you say, finding that balance. We're not doing anyone any favours if we're burning ourselves out. It's a challenging question. And I think one for us all to think about this week. How can we be better stewards? There's always room for improvement of all that we have.

Matt: Yeah. Fantastic. Anna, anything from you?

Anna: I, I was just thinking about the fact that for some of us, we probably feel like we already do lots of good things and serve God in lots of ways and are very active in our faith in our day-to-day. And I guess I was thinking, it's easy to come away from a talk like this and think, oh, what, what more should I do?

Matt: Yeah, I'm not doing enough.

Anna: Yeah, what else can I do? And I, I really don't want anyone to come away with that message unless you generally aren't doing very much with your faith and you feel quite challenged, but Actually, for those that are, I guess my encouragement would just be to finish. Like the Bible says, don't grow weary of doing good. So for some of us, actually, it's just about just keep going, just keep doing what you're doing, just be faithful. And, you know, sometimes when it's hard to serve God and to love people and to give of yourself, like, just keep going. Don't, don't grow weary of doing good. Yeah. And yeah, I guess that would be my kind of Finishing thought, really. I

Matt: Think that's such an important point, that Bible verse, do not grow weary in doing good, for in due time you will reap a harvest. And I think, you can get discouraged because, again, back to the starfish analogy, if all you're doing is looking up and down the beach, you kind of think after a while you start with enthusiasm and it can get a little bit draining. and you feel like, am I really making a difference? there's one of my neighbours, who Doesn't he's not a Christian, doesn't come to church, but I visit him every week. And after visiting him five or six years, you kind of go, "Am I helping?" I mean, you feel like you feel like the the starfish is just like this. I don't know if I'm helping or not, but it's one of those where you kind of go, actually, what matters is is showing up. And and I I think that's a really really important thing to keep doing. So I think it's a very good point from you, Anna. But I also get Ade's challenge. with us to— well, the Bible. Let me not give Ade the biblical glory. there, there is some challenge there for us as well. And I think, going back to something that I saw Ellis put in the comments about self-reflection is a good thing, a little bit of introspection. what is God saying? Is he saying anything? Is he saying keep going, well done, don't get discouraged, do not give up? Is he saying actually I'd love for you to help Over here, because I think that would be worthwhile doing. And it's great to see some new names in the comments as well. Always good to read the comments and interact with them. Thank you for joining us. Now what we're going to do next is we are going to head over to Live Lounge. So we're going to end the stream on YouTube, but Anna, Ade, and myself are going to jump in the Live Lounge, which you can reach. on the URL go.crowd.church/livelounge. Dan, if you put that in the comments, can you put that in the comments? Yeah, I think if you write that in there, there you go. so we're going to put it in the comments. This is where we're, we're just in a Zoom room. We'd love to meet you, love to chat with you. and just here, you know, we're going to carry on the conversation over there. I think it is super, super helpful. and super fun to meet people. I just really enjoy it. it's really good to put faces to names. but yeah, I think we shall end it there. what's happening next week?

Anna: I think I'm hosting again, but I have no idea what's happening because I only read the notes for this week.

Matt: Okay.

Anna: Sorry about that, everyone.

Matt: I think I'm speaking next week. I think Ade and I swapped. Is that— that's— and then— I think we swapped, yeah. Yeah. So I think, it's, I'm back again next week. You're back again.

Anna: Yeah.

Matt: Shall I find out who else is back next week? because we would love to obviously see you, with us on the livestream next week. So we've got Will. Actually, you're not hosting next week, are you? Maybe it's the week after. We've got Will, who's in Live Lounge at the moment, and Sharon. Will, I hope you know that you're hosting next week. Yeah, he does. He's nodding his head, which is great. wonderful. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Genuinely. Absolutely loved the conversation. Sorry if we didn't get around to all the comments tonight. There were a lot of them to get through. and just love the conversation. like I said, we'd love to see you back here next week. We're going to look at what is truth. we're going to get in subjective truth, objective truth. When Jesus claimed he was the truth, was he making that up? What does it mean? And so on and so forth. we're going to get into that. It's kind of the follow-on from Sharon's talk last week about Jesus being the way. So if you would like to come join us for that, we would love to chat with you. it's gonna be a really, really great conversation. Thank you so much. Oh, smack of the microphone. but that's it from myself, from Anna, and from me. God bless you. If we're leaving you on YouTube, bye for now, and we'll jump over to Live Lounge. but that's it. Bye.