Someone has hurt you, and part of you is certain they don't deserve to be let off. Ade Birkby picks up one of the hardest lines in Jesus' teaching, love your enemies, and shows why forgiveness is less about them and more about you. Holding a grudge quietly costs us our health, our peace and, strangely, our character, because we start to mirror the very person we can't stand. Drawing on Matthew 5, the real cost of resentment and the story of Corrie ten Boom, this is an honest look at how we let go, and why it sets us free.
01When Someone Who Hurt You Doesn't Deserve Forgiveness
Have you ever been hurt by someone, and felt completely justified in staying angry? Not a petty annoyance, but a real wrong that caused real pain. Part of you knows the grudge isn't helping, and part of you is certain they haven't earned your forgiveness.
This week, as our series Jesus the Revolutionary moves into some of His harder teachings where Jesus tells us to love our enemies. Not tolerate them. Love them. And before we write that off as impossible or naive, it's worth asking what He actually meant, because it turns out forgiveness is less about the other person than we think.
02What Holding a Grudge Actually Costs You
Resentment promises to protect us. It feels like keeping the upper hand, like justice held in reserve. In reality it does the opposite.
Ade laid out what carrying unforgiveness does to us. Mentally, it keeps a wound open, feeding prolonged anger, bitterness and hostility, and many studies link it to depression and psychological distress. Physically, chronic resentment holds the body in a stress response, raised heart rate, raised blood pressure, stress hormones, and over time that's associated with a weakened immune system and poor sleep. Socially, it pulls us toward revenge and avoidance, and slowly makes us more defensive and cynical with everyone, not just the person who hurt us.
Mike, one of the hosts, has asked GPs about this over the years, and he's seen it in his own life too. When he's been hurt and gone over it again and again in his head, it affects his day, his sleep, his health. However big or small the offence, the grudge takes its toll.
03What Jesus Meant by Love Your Enemies
Here's the passage, from Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV):
You have heard that it was said, "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy." But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
The picture of sun and rain matters. In the ancient world these were two of the most important gifts going, the difference between food growing and not. And they fall on everyone, the good and the not so good alike. God's goodness has no favourites.
It helps to know what Jesus' first hearers were living through. Judea was under Roman military occupation, and soldiers could legally force a Jew to drop whatever they were doing and carry their gear for miles, unpaid. There were freedom fighters, the Zealots, who treated killing Romans and refusing taxes as holy duty. Tax was collected by local Jews who took everything above Rome's cut as their own wage, backed by Roman force. They were hated, listed alongside thieves and barred from the temple. And anyone who wasn't a Jew, a Gentile, was considered unclean and largely despised. The Dead Sea Scrolls even carry the line, "love the sons of light, hate the sons of darkness."
So when the culture read "love your neighbour", it meant love your fellow Jew. Into that, Jesus says love your enemies. It was a genuinely radical thing to say.
It was also a world built on reciprocation. A greeting earned a greeting, a favour earned a favour. Jesus asks for something that breaks the whole system, what Ade called a pure gift mentality. Give without expecting the return. As Jesus puts it, even the tax collectors love the people who love them back. Loving people who don't love you back is a different thing altogether, and Ade was honest that we need God's help to do it.
04Why Loving Your Enemies Is an Action, Not a Feeling
In English we hear "love" and think romance. Greek had more precise words. Eros is romantic love. Philia is the deep loyalty of friendship. The word Jesus uses here is agape, an unconditional, selfless love that seeks the best for another person, whether we feel warmly toward them or not.
That changes everything about the command. Jesus isn't asking us to feel fond of someone who hurt us. He's asking us to act for their good, in a way that doesn't come naturally. And He pairs it with something interesting, pray for those who persecute you. It's very hard to genuinely pray for someone's good while nursing a grudge against them. The act of praying slowly forces us to see them less as a monster and more as a flawed, broken human being. Which, Ade noted, is probably part of why God asks us to do it. It changes our heart as much as anything.
05Forgiveness and Reconciliation Aren't the Same Thing
This is where a lot of us get stuck, so it's worth being clear.
Forgiveness takes one person. You can choose, in your own heart, to release the debt someone owes you, whatever they do next. Reconciliation takes two, and it needs real change from the other person. It's often the goal, but it isn't always safe or even possible.
Jesus commands forgiveness. He does not command reconciliation. As Ade put it later, loving your enemies does not mean being a doormat. Some people will keep harming you no matter what you do. You can forgive someone and still put firm boundaries in place, step back from a toxic situation, and treat them with professional respect rather than trying to please them. Forgiveness sets you free on the inside. It doesn't oblige you to walk back into harm.
06How a Grudge Turns You Into the Person Who Hurt You
Ade talked about something called the mirroring effect. Repay hate with hate, violence with violence, and your enemy ends up dictating your behaviour. Little by little, you start acting like the very person whose behaviour you can't stand. The thing you hate in them takes root in you.
Forgiveness is what breaks that chain. Refusing to pay back negative with negative stops the cycle dead. It's one person deciding not to pass the hurt along.
That's why Jesus ties all this to family resemblance. In that culture, a son was expected to act like his father. For us, loving the way God loves becomes the proof that we belong to Him. Forgiveness stops the cycle of harm for harm, restores relationships, and brings inner peace.
Jesus later raises the bar even higher. "A new command I give you: love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another" (John 13:34). Not just as you love yourself, but as He loves you. And in Matthew 6:14-15 He makes the stakes plain, that if we forgive others, our Father forgives us, and if we won't, we hold something shut in ourselves too.
07Where the Conversation Went
Is the damage from unforgiveness really that serious?
Mike and Sharon both said yes, from experience. Sharon described not realising she'd been holding unforgiveness toward someone until a friend asked, "are you angry?" She'd been seeing the person through a lens where everything they did looked bad. When she finally forgave them, nothing about them had changed, but suddenly she could see they were a good person after all. The grudge hadn't protected her. It had made her world smaller.
How do you get from stopping the resentment to actually praying for someone?
Talita named how hard that gap is to cross, and Sharon agreed there's a step we often skip. Before trying to love someone, we have to properly acknowledge how we feel, rather than squashing it down and papering over it. Sharon pointed to the book Forgive, Release and Be Free by Joff Day, which walks through exactly that process. Mike added a practical move, pause and name the debt first. What is it you feel you're owed? A damaged reputation? Real harm? Get honest about that, then bring it to God and ask for help.
Doesn't forgiving just feel like letting them win?
Ellis put it plainly, that he's quick to call out unfairness and finds it hard to let go, because it can feel like the other person wins. Mike understood that completely. Someone has to absorb the cost of a wrong, he said, and forgiveness means choosing to carry it yourself rather than demanding they pay. It's genuinely hard. The thing that makes it possible is remembering how much we've already been forgiven by God.
What if we're the one who caused the hurt?
WorthyLife shared that Matthew 5:23-24, leaving your gift at the altar to go and put things right first, is a life verse, because often it's them who needs to reconcile. Sharon noted how much easier it is to see what others have done to us than to notice when we've become the difficult one for someone else.
Does forgiving mean forgetting, and have you failed if you can't?
Alicia reflected that forgiveness doesn't mean you've failed if you can't forget or reconcile. Sharon's experience is that once she truly forgives, the memory doesn't vanish, but it stops living at the front of her mind. It gets filed away. She hasn't technically forgotten, but it no longer runs her thinking.
Corrie ten Boom and the hand she couldn't lift
Mike shared the story that sits underneath all of this. Corrie ten Boom survived Ravensbrück, where her sister died. Years later a man approached her after a church service with his hand out. She recognised him instantly as one of the cruellest guards from the camp. He'd since become a Christian, and he asked her directly, "will you forgive me?"
She froze. She knew she could not generate forgiveness in her own strength. So she prayed, "Jesus, help me," and made the willed choice to lift her hand and place it in his. The moment they touched, she felt God's love flood through her. She later wrote that forgiveness is not an emotion but an act of the will, enabled by God.
That's the whole point, Mike said. Left to ourselves, our ability to forgive the worst things can be close to zero. The strength comes from God, when we bring Him the pain and the size of the debt and ask Him to do what we can't.
Was there anything that didn't fit in the talk?
Ade pointed to Galatians 5:22-23, the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. The list doesn't include frustration, minor grievances or major ones. It makes a simple self-check. In the situation you're in right now, are your fruits the ones on that list, or something that isn't? If it's not there, and especially if it's negative, that's the thing to deal with.
08How to Start Forgiving Someone This Week
Forgiveness isn't a feeling you wait for. It's a choice you make, with God's help. Here are a few honest starting points from the talk and the conversation.
- Name the debt. Before anything else, get specific about what you actually feel you're owed. You can't release a debt you won't admit exists.
- Let yourself feel it first. Don't jump straight to "I'm meant to love them." Acknowledge the hurt properly, so you're dealing with it rather than burying it.
- Pray for the person, even reluctantly. You don't have to mean it perfectly. Mike only ever started praying for people because his wife did. Praying for someone slowly changes how you see them.
- Ask God for what you don't have. Like Corrie, you can make the choice to lift your hand and ask Him for the strength you can't manufacture yourself.
- Run the fruit check. When something's bothering you, ask whether what's rising in you is on Galatians' list, or not.
09One Last Question
Ade closed with a challenge rather than a conclusion. Unconditional love is our proof of family resemblance to God. So take a look at yours this week and ask, honestly, is there room for improvement?
Most of us, if we're honest, would say yes. And that's okay, because this was never about forgiving in our own strength. It's about receiving the grace God has already poured on us, and letting it flow out to the people who are hardest to love.
If you're wrestling with forgiving someone, you don't have to do it alone. We'd love to have you in the conversation. Join us at crowd.church, and if you've got questions about faith, our Alpha Course runs online on Wednesday evenings, 7:30pm. No pressure, no wrong questions, just a safe place to explore.
Topics in this talk
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Sharon: Oh, hey. Hello and welcome to Crowd Church. My name's Sharon and I'm hosting tonight alongside the fabulous Mike, who I'm told has changed his name to Mr. Practical. So would you like to tell us about that?
Mike: Yeah, that's right. Hi, great to be here. yes, I've managed to fix a whole in the, the seal on my windscreen of my van, my very, very old van. So,
Sharon: Feeling proud of yourself, mate.
Mike: Because it's fixed, I'm now a joiner. So, yeah.
Sharon: Yeah. Okay. We'll go with that. also joining us tonight, we've got Ade who's in Wales. Hi, Ade. have you changed your name since I last spoke to you?
Ade: no, and nor am I a windscreen engineer like our good friend Mike is.
Sharon: Cool. So, yeah, welcome to all of you, whether you're part of the community already. great to see you. And if you're new, or just even if you're looking into the faith, this is the place to be. you're welcome to add your questions and your comments. In case you are new, just so that you know what's happening tonight, we've got Ade who will be speaking to us. We're partway through a series about Jesus the revolutionary, and we've done some of the nicer, more palatable parts of what he said, and we're now looking at some of the harder teachings. So Ade's carrying on with those harder teachings, and then after he's done the talk, we're going to get back together, the 3 of us, and chat about the talk. And also just talk about any of your comments, your questions. So please do join in the conversation. We don't want this just to be passive, you know, you watching and us talking. Join in the conversation. If you'd like to actually watch and join in with other people, we have Live Lounge, which is actually on now. And that's just a room where people can watch together and then discuss together after the talk. So the details for that should be— In the comments. I'm reliably told they are coming up very soon. So, yeah, so I think we will go straight to Ade now, and to hear what the latest, more challenging teaching of Jesus is. So, Ade.
Ade: Thank you. The topic of tonight's talk is Love Your Enemies: The Importance of Forgiveness. So, simple question: have you ever been hurt? Has anyone done you any real wrong and caused real pain? The answer to that is, of course, yes, because we are human beings and getting hurt is part of life. But have you ever felt that other person doesn't deserve my forgiveness, or I have every right to be angry? After all, this was a real wrong done to me, causing real pain. And on the surface, resentment can promise protection, but it ultimately imprisons us. And the impact of not forgiving people is quite profound. Mentally, it means prolonged anger, resentment, more bitterness, hostility that can even lead to depression. It can trigger negative thoughts and keeping a psychological wound open. And studies, even, and many studies link unforgiveness both to ourselves and to others with depression and psychological distress. The physical impact isn't much better either, because chronic resentment keeps the body in a state of stress response. That means elevated heart rate, elevated blood pressure, and stress hormones. And prolonged unforgiveness is also associated with a weakened immune system, poor sleep, and long-term physical toll. And the damage keeps on going because socially, the motivational component often involves a desire for revenge or retaliation, ultimately avoiding the other person and potentially damaging personal bonds. And accumulated bitterness over time can actually alter our behaviour, making us more defensive and cynical in future interactions. Fortunately, there's some good teaching on this in Matthew chapter 5, verses 43 to 48. I'm going to read that now. You have heard that it is said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you only greet your brothers, what— sorry, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. There's a couple interesting and important symbologies used here. The first one is being children of the Father. In Jewish culture, the son is expected to act like his father. And therefore, for us, acting with unconditional love serves as proof of family resemblance to God. The other important symbol here is the sun and the rain. Now, in biblical times, these were seen as 2 of the most important blessings. They were critical for survival. They got by on food growing or not growing. But these also symbolize God's universal goodness and grace poured out equally, with no favorites. When it rains, it rains on the righteous and the unrighteous, the nice and the not so nice. The same with the sun, it happens to everyone. Now before we get into it, there's a few things important to understand in the context of what's happening at the time. First and foremostly, Judea was under Roman occupation. And the Romans ruled Judea with an iron fist. It was a military occupation. In Roman law, soldiers could legally make Jews carry their gear for miles and miles with no payment, and whatever the Jews were doing, they had to stop doing it and just carry their gear. And Roman soldiers often enforced this, much to the hatred of the Jews. Now, the Jews expected the Messiah to come in and overthrow the their Roman overlords. And there was a bunch of Jewish freedom fighters called the Zealots, who were very active, and they believed that assassinating Romans and refusing to pay taxes were holy duties. Speaking of tax, being under the Roman system, the Romans demanded their tax, but the Romans didn't take the tax themselves. They used local Jews to collect the tax. Now, the way it would work is Rome had a certain price, and anything above that, the tax collector took as their cut and their salary, for the want of a better word. And they had the might of Roman soldiers to back it up, to make sure people paid for them. They were absolutely hated. They are classed and listed amongst thieves and murderers and prostitutes. They were the lowest of the low in Jewish culture. They were barred from entering the temple. Now, speaking of Jewish culture, if you weren't a Jew, you were a Gentile, and that would mean that you were ceremonially unclean, you ate non-kosher foods, you did not follow a law, and you worshipped idols, and typically you were hated by Jews. It was very much embedded into their culture. Now, whilst the Bible itself does not say anything quite so explicit, the Dead Sea Scrolls interestingly do, and they were written by a Jewish sect, and there is a quote Love all the sons of light, hate all the sons of darkness. So in this time, if you were a Jew, you were considered a neighbor. In fact, the interpretation of love your neighbor to the Jews were love your neighbor Jew. If you were a Gentile, you didn't come under that, you weren't included. And finally, this culture was very much a culture of reciprocation. Life was transactional. You did a greeting expecting you would get a greeting in turn. You gave a gift perhaps, or a favor, expecting you would get a favor in turn. And Jesus here is demanding a pure gift mentality, which is a seismic shift away from the transactional society they were living in. Now here he is clearly calling us to a higher standard. We are to move past the human standard of fairness, which is transactional. I'll do to you what you do to me. We are to compare ourselves to God and not to each other. As he says in verse 47, even the tax collectors, you know, love those who love back. It's easy to love those who love back. It's not easy to love those who don't love back. And the truth is, we need help from God. We need supernatural help from God to be able to love those who do not love back, especially our enemies. And in verse 48, where he talks about being perfect as your Father, doesn't mean we're going to become perfect or we're not going to make mistakes. It is our love will be well-rounded and will be reflective Attempting to be the love that he has shown us. Now, love is an action and not a feeling, and before I go further into this, it's worth defining what we're talking about in the context of love here. In the English language, we associate love very often with romantic love, which in Greek would be iROAS, which is romantic and passionate love or physical desire. Greek have a different word, more for the family kind of love, philia, which is like a deep loyal friendship, an affection shared between companions, could also be between relatives. What the Bible is referring to, what Jesus is referring to, is agape, which is an unconditional, selfless, sacrificial love that seeks the best interest for others. He is not talking about romantic love when he says, love your enemies, he is talking about acting selflessly toward them, the kind of way that we wouldn't want to naturally. That is what we are being commanded to do. And interestingly, this command to love in the agape sense is paired with an instruction to pray for those who persecute you. Now, on the surface, this might look a bit strange, but when you think about it, It's impossible to genuinely pray for someone's ultimate good whilst holding a grudge. Whilst the act of, say, persecution in the first place that made them appear as a monster, the act of prayer forces us to see them as a broken and flawed human. And finally, forgiveness is Reconciliation is conditional, but forgiveness is commanded. Now importantly, forgiveness prevents us from becoming the thing we hate. It's a phenomenon called the mirroring effect, where by reacting to hate and violence with more hate and violence, for example, your actual enemy is dictating your behavior, and your behavior is getting more like your enemy's behavior, which you hate in the first place. So forgiveness breaks that chain. Refusing to repay negative with negative, it breaks that chain. Forgiveness requires one person, one party in the involved hurt, dispute, or whatever it is. We can make the choice. To forgive and release the debt. Reconciliation, it requires 2. Whilst it is ideal and we would always like to be in that situation, it is not always safe or possible, and Jesus is being very clear. He is talking about forgiveness and not reconciliation. So when we think about all this and we start to turn the mirror in toward us, where are we in relation to that higher standard? Is our standard of fairness human or godly? And do we have a pure gift or transactional giving mentality in this situation? John 13:34: A new command I give you: love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. Now interestingly, this command is even higher than love your neighbor as yourself. We're no longer looking at— because love your neighbor as yourself, that's kind of like your human view of love, our definition of love. But to love one another as God has loved us, that's God's definition of love. That is a higher calling. When it comes to action, are we loving everyone including our enemies? And by that I mean, are our actions selflessly in their best interest. Luke 6:27-28: But to you who are listening, I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. And finally, are we forgiving others? or feeling justified not to. Matthew 16:14-15: For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. That is a somber, somber warning. We are called very clearly to God's standard and not man's. We are called to love all unconditionally, to forgive others. Now ultimately, it's, you know, we are called— it's our choice if we follow God or not. But if we are generally followers of Christ, his children, then we will be looking to exemplify these things. Matthew 5:9, blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. Forgiveness stops the cycle of harm for harm, restores relationships, and brings inner peace. And just like in the Jewish culture, where the son is expected to act like the father, we are also expected to act like our Father in Heaven, acting with unconditional love. And it's this act of unconditional love That serves as our proof of family resemblance to God. So this week, I challenge you, take a look at your proof of family resemblance and ask the question, is there room for improvement? I certainly think in mine, yes, there is.
Sharon: Thank you. Thanks for that, Ade. I love how you always bring in the cultural background to help bring out a little bit more of the meaning there. before we get into discussion, just want to say hi to some people in the comments. So I'll try to get you all, but we've got, Matt Crew, Matt Edmundson, Alicia, Talita— hoping I'm getting the pronunciation right— Sonia, Ellis. Hi everybody. Worthy Life. who else? Is that everybody? I think that's the ones that I can see. Can you see anybody else?
Mike: no, I think, I think that's all.
Sharon: Yeah, cool. yeah, yeah, great to have you with us. Yeah, do, keep bunging your comments in, any questions as well. Okay, let's get into the discussion. So I just wanted to start by Talking— I think you might have actually missed the first bit, Mike, because Matt was talking tech details and stuff with Mike. So, but Ade just sort of listed all the different ways in that holding on to resentment and bitterness can affect us physically, mentally, socially. Yeah. And I thought that was pretty comprehensive.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: did you hear any of that?
Mike: I caught a bit of it.
Sharon: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: Yeah.
Mike: It's, it's, I've, I've talked to GPs before about unforgiveness and how big an impact it has on people's lives. And, it's, you know, difficult to quantify, isn't it, I suppose, and different for different people. But, you know, I don't think there's anything, any doubt. Just in my own life, I know that, you know, in those times where I have been hurt by someone, you know, going over and over that in my head however big or small it is, has an impact on my day.
Sharon: Yeah.
Mike: And has an impact on my sleep, has an impact on, you know, it has to have an impact on my health. you know, and I know for, for other people who've, you know, been through worse and, I found it difficult to, to forgive, it's had a huge impact on their lives.
Sharon: Yeah.
Mike: so yeah, it's a big deal.
Sharon: Absolutely. Yeah, I, I know the impact in my own life from unforgiveness. And I remember one time in particular when there was somebody who I hadn't realized I hadn't forgiven for quite a long time until somebody was like, are you angry? And I'm like, oh yeah, I actually am angry.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And there was a whole list of people actually, but one in particular. And I realized that I was seeing them through this lens of unforgiveness. So it's like everything they did was interpreted through that lens.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And I could only see the bad stuff about them. And just inside, it feels like darkness.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And just evil, I think.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: But then when I did actually forgive them, it was like suddenly they were this amazing, fabulous person. And it's like they hadn't actually changed. They were always amazing and fabulous.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: But the way that I saw them Had changed. Yeah.
Mike: yeah, and that's something, a small bit of that, that I, you know, I've experienced. And it is amazing, isn't it, that, the way we see people changes when, you know— I'm sure one of the reasons why God asks us to pray for those people who persecute us is as much just to help change our heart, towards them and Yeah.
Sharon: Which brings me on to a question. So, Ade, I'll bring you back in here. Have you got any examples you can give of situations where you've had to love an enemy? Hmm.
Ade: I find myself in the fortunate position that I don't think I've got anyone who is A real proper enemy. There have been people who have hurt me, and I have yet to come to a big situation where, yes, it's taken me time to get over it, where I've been like, nope, nope, nope, I just cannot forgive that person. For me, I'm going to struggle more when I don't see it. So it's just, let's say I find myself reacting to someone who technically, you know, I don't have a beef with, but they're doing something that annoys me. Or let's say there's an unfair share of workload and, or someone's kind of not pulling their weight, but they're pretending to. And I just find when that person's there, I kind of react not at them, but something builds up inside me and it's kind of like, Oh, actually, yeah, I've, I, because it's not been a big deal, I haven't thought I need to forgive that person, but actually there's something here I need to deal with and take a moment.
Sharon: How about you, Mike? maybe not necessarily an enemy, but where, you know, you've had that, you find that resentment building up and you're like, actually, I'm commanded to love them.
Mike: Yeah, I think Yeah, I've— I suppose when, my wife works with lots of other people, and some of them are great, maybe not so great, and, I've found it hard, or found resentment building up in me towards these people who I've never met, but I've heard you know, of not being all that kind to my wife. And so, yeah, praying for them. And, and often it was my wife who wanted to pray for them before I did, and I'd never even met them. I hadn't— they hadn't even harmed me or done anything to me, but it was, you know, it was Deb who was wanting to, to pray for them. And so I would reluctantly join her in praying for them. And it's, it's tough. It's tough. but I think as Ade said, it's, it's a choice, isn't it?
Sharon: Yeah.
Mike: It's a choice, and it's a choice because I think as Matt's put in the comments, it's a command, isn't it? And so when it's a command, you know, God knows us, he knows us best, doesn't he? And so if he makes a command for us to do something, he's only going to do that if he supplies us with the substance to be able to, to do that.
Sharon: Yeah.
Mike: and so, you know, when I have prayed for these people who I have resented, as hard as it is, it's, you know, I think as you were saying before, as you are praying for them and as you are asking God to bless them and to to change them and whatever it is, your heart does change, slowly and a little bit at a time.
Sharon: Yeah. It's interesting how, like you were saying, we can take offense on behalf of other people. They've not even done anything to us.
Mike: Yeah, yeah.
Sharon: But yeah, I think we need to watch for that as well, don't we? I think for me, one of the most, ones when this was the most obvious was with an old neighbor of ours. our previous house who was really friendly when we first moved in and then stopped talking to us. And then after years did start talking to us, but it was to complain about different stuff that she was saying was our fault. And my, my reaction is just to, well, you know, that inward, it's be, you want, just want to defend yourself and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not actually my fault. But I had those verses that came to mind, you know, love your enemy.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And she did actually feel like a bit of an enemy.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: There's lots that went on, but I felt, you know, I was reminded of those verses, love your enemy. So instead of just being like, it's not my fault, it's, you know, nothing to do with me, I was like, okay, I will look into this for you. And there was, there was one issue which hadn't— it wasn't actually our fault and it wasn't actually on her thing, but I was like, okay, I will even try and get this sorted for you. and when she realized it wasn't actually to do with me, she did start a little backtracking a little bit. but yeah, that was— and I think that did bring about a bit of a change. You know, if you meet, like Ada was saying before, sometimes if we meet someone with the same kind of attitude, it perpetuates that.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: But if you come with that different spirit of grace, yeah, And love, it can start after a while, start to change things a little bit sometimes.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon: Yeah, a few comments here. Matt Crew says, I'm praying for my neighbor at the end of the road who screamed in my face for tidying up some leaves. Yeah, tricky. there's another one here I wanted to pick up on. Talita says, it's the gap between not cultivating anger and resentment And actually praying for them, it's hard to bridge for me. yeah, and I think actually that's a really important point, and I think there is actually a process to go through before we get to the, yeah, I'm gonna be loving towards them. And that is to actually partly acknowledge how we feel.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: Not to just switch straight into, oh, I'm meant to love them.
Ade: Yeah, yeah.
Sharon: But to properly, properly acknowledge that. and work that through and—
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And then be able to forgive, let go, and then move on to the, okay, I'm going to love them. And actually, there's a really helpful book that I found helpful, which is specifically about forgiveness, and it's called Forgive, Release, and Be Free by Jofte. I think it's out of print, but you can still get it. And it's just fabulous because it actually teaches you how to go through that process. And I've recommended it to so many people over the years who've all gone, this is an amazing book.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: Because I think if we don't actually totally acknowledge how we feel, we end up just squashing it down rather than properly dealing with it. And then we just like trying to love someone is just like trying our hardest to do the right thing. But actually there's then a kind of dissonance in how we actually are.
Mike: Yeah. And yeah, so yeah, I think when you— when we get, I think you're dead right. And I, I think my temptation can sometimes be, you know, if, if someone does forgive— if someone does hurt me, it's just to jump to that without recognizing that, you know, what has happened. And, I think it's really important when someone does hurt you to understand that, you know, to pause and to think, what is it now that I feel is owed to me? Is it that they have damaged my reputation? Is it that they have physically harmed me? You know, what is it that I— what's the debt that is owed to me? And sort of getting a good handle on that before then Coming to God. Yeah. And saying, okay God, this is the death that I— this is what's happened, this is how I feel, this is what I feel like I'm owed, you know, you're gonna have to help me here. yeah, and I think that's really key, really important, really healthy. Yeah.
Sharon: Ade, is there anything else that you want to add to that about the gap between not cultivating anger and resentment and actually praying for somebody?
Ade: We generally need help. This is not something that comes to us naturally. I guess it's something that with practice, with humility and walking closely with God, it's something that we can get better over time. It certainly doesn't feel. natural, something that you want to do, but it's something that I say we are commanded to. And as with all things, God has given us everything we need, but it's up to us to, you know, grasp the tools, the gifts, the guidance, and, and actually move forward.
Sharon: Mm-hmm.
Mike: I've got, a little story or a little testimony.
Sharon: Okay.
Mike: because, I was doing Alpha. I know, our crowd are running Alpha as well. I don't know what week you're up to, but the week we're up to, we've just heard a story from Corrie ten Boom. which I was just gonna say because this is all about forgiveness. So for those of you who don't know, Corrie ten Boom, was in Ravensbrück concentration camp back in 1947. And so, yeah, so she forgave a former SS guard. So one of the people who was in charge of the concentration camp that her and her sister, and I think her mum, was there. I think her mum and her sister both died in the concentration camp. And so, Corrie ten Boom later was in a church and this happened. So it says, As people were leaving the church, a balding, heavyset man in a gray coat approached Corrie with his hand outstretched. Corrie instantly recognized him as one of the cruelest guards at Ravensbrück, the camp where her beloved sister Betsie had suffered and died. The man explained that he had become a Christian after the war, believed his past sins were washed away, and asked Corrie directly Will you forgive me? Corrie froze as cold, angry memories of the camp, the humiliation, the cold, and her dying sister flashed through her mind. She realized she could not generate the forgiveness in her own human strength. She silently prayed, Jesus, help me, and asked God to, to give her his love to forgive the man. Corrie made the conscious, willed choice to lift her hand and place it into the guard's hand. The moment their hands touched, she felt an overwhelming warm current of God's love flood from her shoulder through her arm and into her— into their clasped hands. She wept as she told him, I forgive you, brother, with all my heart, later writing that forgiveness is not an emotion but an act of the will enabled by God. And I think, you know, as amazing as that story is, and it is, you know, Utterly amazing, the the cruelness she talks about having to walk naked in front of this remembering walking naked in front of this SS guard, you know, as he inflicted all sorts of cruelty. And she says at the end of this testimony, she says, "Can you forgive?" And she says, "No." But with God's help, you can. And you know, she knew in that moment when she saw this guard, all that rage and all that pain and all that. all that history came flooding back, and she knew she could not forgive this man. And so she prayed, and she asked God for God's help. And I think that's the thing, you know, when, you know, we don't know what, what you have been through, the pain that you have been caused, but, you know, according to Corrie ten Boom, your ability to forgive is, is zero. And actually, the only way that you're going to have the strength to be to forgive whatever enemy you have is by going to God, recognizing the pain that you have, that you feel like you've been through, or understanding the size of the debt that you feel like you've been owed, and going to God. And it's only through God enabling you to be able to forgive that, that this is possible. and yeah, you know, I just, I think it's a great story. And Very inspiring.
Sharon: Yeah, it's very inspiring. I want to pick up on something else you said then, but before that you also mentioned Alpha.
Mike: Oh yeah.
Sharon: So if you are new to Alpha, you don't know what it is, it's basically a course for people who are wanting to look into the Christian faith but you've got questions. So there are courses that are run all around the country, all around the world. At Crowd, we do one online. I don't think it's too late to join. That one's Wednesday evenings, half past 7. Links in the comments. Links in the comments. That's for about an hour and a half-ish, the Wednesday one. And it's just a safe space where you can come and just go, I don't get that, or I've got these questions. And each week we watch a video on a different topic. So things like, who is Jesus? How do I pray? That kind of stuff. Yeah, and you can just come along. Non-threatening. We're not going to be like, well, you're wrong. It's just, you know, great. Something else I wanted to pick up on, you were talking about how we need God's help to forgive and to be able to love, I think, love our enemies.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And I think, and you're talking about that we need to recognize the debt that we're owed. And that really is based on the parable of the unforgiving servant a lot. Which the book I mentioned is also about. And in this parable, there's a king and he's got a servant and the servant owes him this huge amount of money. And then the king forgives him the money because this guy could never pay it back.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And the servant then goes on, finds somebody that owes him money. And instead of being like, oh, I've been let off this huge debt, I'll let this guy off his really tiny debt towards me. He goes and throws him into prison because he can't pay it.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And then the king's really angry with him. And he's like, if— and this is where I think the bit that Ade read comes from, that if you don't forgive other people, then God won't forgive you. And part of me wonders, did the first guy not actually totally appreciate That he had been forgiven this debt. Did he hear, oh, or did he interpret it as, oh, he's let me off, but really that means I've just got extra time to pay and I'm going to try and get everything else? I think part of being able to love our enemies and forgive other people is recognizing that God forgives us our huge debt towards him and receiving that grace from him. Because when we— When we acknowledge that gift from God, that we were once his enemies, and he's poured out his love and his grace on us, I think it then makes it easier to pass that on to other people. It's more like it flows from God through us and out to other people. So I think that's something that's really helped me in the past.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: Yeah.
Ade: Yeah.
Mike: That's, that's, yeah.
Sharon: Anything, Ade, anything to, Add to that?
Ade: no, I think you've covered that quite well.
Sharon: cool. We've got Ellis has put, I'm very quick to call out something that I deem to be unfair. I find it hard to let it go and not hold it against someone, even though I know that I should. It can feel like you're letting them win. Yeah, it can. Any, any thoughts on that last bit, you know, it feels like you're letting them win.
Mike: Yeah, you feel like you're releasing them from a debt that they owe. And, you know, somebody's— you feel like somebody's got to pay that debt. The debt can't go unpaid.
Sharon: Yeah.
Mike: So either I pay it by not seeking revenge, or what— or, you know, Yeah. By not seeking revenge, or you pay for it because, you know, you're the person who's done things wrong. And, you know, it's really, really hard, really hard. And the only answer is, is to, is to look back and to try and remember how much you've been forgiven, you know, by, by a perfect God. But, but it's hard. Wow, it's hard. I'm sure somebody has said, some of our wives said forgiveness is the hardest thing we have to do this side of heaven. And, you know, I, I totally believe it. I think, you know, I don't know if there's anything harder.
Sharon: Yeah.
Mike: Which is why we need God's help. And I know Ade at the beginning was talking about our family resemblance and how, you know, we— I, I, I only have one message, and, and that is that God is changing us into the likeness of Jesus. And forgiveness is just one of those ways, isn't it, as we engage in that process? Of reconciliation, we are allowing the Holy Spirit in that moment to do such fundamental, great work in our hearts that helps to change us a little bit more into the likeness of Jesus, which means that we're better able to reflect his glory to those that are around us. You know, when you go through life, you know, you think about those hard parts of life, forgiveness is one of the most difficult.
Ade: Yeah.
Mike: I think one of the, you know, one of the, the most crucial periods of time and, and difficulties that you can go through that can be such a molding, forming experience that God can use in your life, which doesn't make the process any easier, But, you know, it is, I hope, some, some comfort to people who are going through it.
Sharon: Yeah. And I think when I have actually been able to forgive people and love those who have hurt me, honestly, it's so freeing on the inside. Stuff that had just kept me imprisoned, again, like I mentioned, it's like suddenly it's like, oh, I'm completely free from this. Yeah. I thought that holding on to the anger and the bitterness and blaming them and blaming them for how my life was now, Yeah. Was like the fair and the just thing to do, but actually it's made my life smaller and smaller and kept me imprisoned. I think Ade said a good phrase. I see, I wrote it down, see if I can find it. where is it? Oh, that resentment promises protection, but it imprisons us. I thought, oh yeah, I really resonate with that.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: Worthy Life has put a couple of comments that are kind of the other side of this about where we can actually be like the enemy to someone. So, I'm not sure if, yeah, so Worthy Life says Matthew 5:23 is a huge life verse for me, leaving your gift there and first going and reconciling. I have found that oftentimes it's me that has something, has done something, that didn't sit right in my heart. And so it I find it's me that has to go and reconcile for something that I did. Yeah, because I think sometimes it's easier sometimes to see what other people have done, how they have hurt us, how they have become the enemy. It's not always easy to recognize that we might be that person for somebody else.
Mike: Yeah, yeah.
Sharon: And the verse, oh, I'll try and find that verse. I think that's referring to where if you're in the temple, you're bringing up an offering to God, and you realize that your brother's got something against you, It's like, go and sort it out.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: yeah.
Mike: It's quite easy. Well, it's easier, isn't it, to see, you know, when you've done something wrong and you have to go and ask someone for forgiveness, you, you feel like you're in their debt.
Sharon: Yeah. You feel—
Mike: you— yeah, I do. I feel like I, even when I apologize, I still feel like there's a debt that I need to, you know, try and make up for. yeah, you're just aware of the fact that that's there. You've hurt them, you've, you've done something. There is, and, and you want to make it right.
Sharon: Yeah. Ade, anything to chip in?
Ade: I, I think it's worth looking at this from the, the other side. quite often in conversations around forgiveness and this passage in particular, it's like, oh, you're called to be a doormat. And it's like, No, loving your enemies doesn't mean that you have to be a doormat. It doesn't mean that you have to put yourself in a situation where— because some people, they're going to keep on harming you, it doesn't matter what you do. And unless God is particularly telling us, right, stay in that situation because, you know, God's specifically telling us to, because it's part of his plan, you know, God gave us brains, and it's like, yeah, there are some people who are just going to be toxic and we just need to take a step back from, even if for a season. So this is not a case of, oh yeah, just no matter what everyone does to you, forgive. And then, you know, love your enemies— it's like, it's not saying do your best to please them. It is just treat them professionally, show them the respect they aren't showing you. If there is a situation where you can Think about their needs and put them first in the interactions you're having. Do that. But he's not saying do more than that.
Sharon: Yeah. I'm just aware of the time and that those who are watching in Live Lounge are going to leave us any minute. So thanks guys for joining us. You're going to stay in Live Lounge and continue your conversation there. If you joined our livestream late and you're wondering what Is a live lounge. It's basically just an online room where people can watch together and then just have a bit of community and chat about the talk together rather than just in the comments. So yeah, thanks for joining us, guys. We'll hopefully see you soon. And for the rest of us, we'll just carry on for a few minutes with the conversation, picking up on a few more comments here. Alicia says, I think when it comes to forgiving self or others, sometimes it helps to remember that forgiveness doesn't mean you're a failure if you're unable to forget or reconcile. yeah, I think as Ade mentioned before, forgiveness and reconciliation are 2 completely different things. Forgiveness you can do yourself in your own heart regardless of what the other person does. But for reconciliation, there needs to be some change with the other person as well. And especially like if, we've said many times, haven't we? If you've, if you're in an abusive situation, you can forgive the abuser while still putting really good boundaries in place. And, and sometimes actually reconciliation is not appropriate.
Ade: Yeah.
Sharon: It's probably the least appropriate thing to do.
Mike: I know, I wish I could remember the verse, But— or the verse or the passage, but I can't. maybe someone watching can remember it, but I'm sure there's a bit in the New Testament where it talks about, if you have a disagreement with somebody else, you get another person involved. So you get a mediator. if the person continues, with whatever it is that they're doing, then you come back with more people and you find more witnesses and, and you come back to this person. And eventually, if the person still continues, then you, you basically treat them then as an unbeliever and you, you know, distance yourself from them. But I think the, the point I want to make is that from the beginning, at no point are you alone with that person. So you either have a mediator or you have other people in the church who, who We'll come with you to discuss this issue and to try and sort it out, try and find reconciliation with the person. yeah.
Sharon: Yeah. And I think it is actually important to deal with this stuff because it's like if, if we are hurt and we just ignore it, then it builds up over time and becomes this massive thing that then affects everything about the relationship. And I think we've seen this quite a few times over the years with something that started off relatively small. Because it wasn't talked about at that point and the other person maybe wasn't even aware that it was an issue.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: Over time becomes this big thing and then there's this big blowup and breakdown of relationship. And it's like, if this was dealt right back, dealt with right back at the beginning, that would have been a very different scenario.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: Yeah.
Ade: Yeah.
Sharon: I'm just looking at more comments here. yeah, Ros has put, forgiveness is life-changing. Forgiving someone and releasing it is an incredible thing to be able to do. Totally agree. Totally live. Yeah, know that from experience.
Mike: Matthew Cruz put, I think God has kept my phone on over 5% tonight as he wanted me to be here.
Sharon: Special miracle just for you. Yeah, well done. yeah, Oh, and just the previous comment I read out from Alicia about forgetting. My— I think my experience is that when I've actually— like, before I've forgiven someone, what they've done is just like right here, constantly in my head, can't see anything else.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: But then when I've actually forgiven them, not necessarily that moment, but over time, when I look back and I'm like, when I sort of think about it, I can remember it to a point if I think quite hard about it. But it's so much, it's dealt with so much that it's just not really, it's stored somewhere away.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: And it's not really part of my thinking anymore. So although I haven't technically forgotten, I kind of have as well. But, yeah.
Mike: Yeah. I, I also, think, you know, with regards to forgiveness as well, it's important to remember that when we come to God and ask for his forgiveness, that we are coming to a perfect, loving Heavenly Father who forgives us instantly. You know, it's different for us, isn't it? We, we sort of go through a process, and sometimes it takes us a little bit of time to get there, but when When we have done things wrong and we've hurt other people and we come to God and we say, Father, forgive me, I've done wrong here, he forgives you in an instant because he is faithful and because he is just and because Jesus died and because he was punished. God is faithful, but he is also just to look on Jesus and the punishment that he paid. so that he can forgive you. And, and that's justice, isn't it? He can't punish you twice. He's punished Jesus. and when you come to him, when you have done something wrong and you come to him to ask for forgiveness, he forgives you instantly because he is faithful and loving and just. yeah.
Sharon: Yeah, that's where I think— that's where it all points to, isn't it? If we're just trying to do all this stuff on our own, Actually, it's really, really hard. But when we're receiving that love and that grace and that forgiveness from God, like I said before, it then becomes more about what's flowing out of us.
Mike: Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon: Not that it, it's always necessarily easy even then.
Mike: Yeah.
Sharon: But yeah, God's Spirit makes things so much more easy. Yeah.
Mike: and I think if, if you're in a regular routine of coming to God and saying, you know, and repenting and saying, you know, repenting is, is saying sorry for the wrong things that you've done. If you're in a regular routine of that, then it, it becomes easier to, to forgive other people because you are constantly, you know, reminded about the fact that, that you need God's forgiveness, you know, daily or, or whatever. A good practice is to regularly, you know, maybe not every day, but But just to say, Holy Spirit, come and search me and know me. And just waiting a few minutes and just allowing the Holy Spirit to maybe bring to mind things that you need to say sorry for, and then confessing them and saying sorry for them. And as you get into that regular routine, that dialogue between you and God, and you experience God's forgiveness and his love and his grace, Mm-hmm. then it makes it easier to forgive all the people.
Sharon: Yeah, I think. Ade, is there anything else that you wanted to chip in, maybe even to do with— I know when I'm preparing a talk, there's usually so much that, you know, from your research that you can't actually put in the talk. So is there anything that you really wanted to be able to say that couldn't fit in, or that you'd like to pick up on from what we talked about tonight?
Ade: somewhat of a tangent and nothing in line with what you just said, but as we've been speaking, I've been thinking about Galatians 5:22-23. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. It does not list frustration with others, minor grievances, major grievances, and I think it's good to bring back our focus to this passage and think, right, the situation I'm in right now, what are my fruits here? Are they the fruits of the Spirit, or are they something that's not listed here? And if it's something that's not listed here, especially if it's negative, then there's something I need to deal with.
Sharon: Yeah, I think Yeah, I think we're coming to the end of our discussion really, but Mike, have you got any last things you'd like to jot in?
Mike: Well, I suppose just to remind you about Corrie ten Boom. Corrie ten Boom said you cannot forgive. She couldn't do it, but she made the conscious decision to lift her hand and to place it in the hand of the garden. the guard— not the guard, God. But as she did that, as she made that choice to follow the command, God gave her the strength to be able to then forgive from her heart. And, you know, that, that is, you know, as you were saying, where we have to come back to all of the time. you know, it is only in God's strength that we are able to do this.
Sharon: Yeah. Any last things from you, Ade?
Ade: No, other than God has given us all we need in his word and, you know, in the community around us. And if you find that you do not have a community of believers around you, be it never searched before, location, can't get to church, then please You know, reach out to, reach out to Crowd through the website. We would love to hear from you.
Sharon: Yeah, that's a great segue into, just saying we will finish our conversation for tonight. But yeah, there are other ways of connecting with us and becoming part of the community. So on Wednesdays, like we've mentioned, we have Alpha. So if you're someone who is, looking into the Christian faith, or maybe you're new to the faith, or maybe you've been a Christian for a while but you've just got lots of questions and you want to go back to the basics, Alpha will be great for you. We also have other communities that are at the same time on a Wednesday, 7:30 online. so again, you can, I think, connect through the website. Is that right?
Ade: More info on the site.
Sharon: More info on the site, yeah. So yeah, do join us and be part of the community. Thanks for joining us tonight and for all your comments. Fabulous as usual, and it's goodbye from us. Bye.
